Crimea; what's going on?

[a5cent]

Well maybe it is an power grab, also I didn't say the Russians during the soviet time couldn't march into any of their countries/states but I only said the borders still existed.

Well, okay, but why don't you just make your point instead of just throwing out a fact that doesn't further the conversation? Yes, the borders between the republics existed. So? Countries all over the world redraw their internal boarders all the time. That isn't illegal anywhere else, so why should it be in Russia? Since nothing on the web supports the claim, and it apparently can't be backed up either, I'm going to call BS. More likely than not, it's just another propaganda line people are parroting without putting much thought into it.

Then again, most of us are far away from the conflict and really don't know the culture they have and how the conditions really are for the civi's in Crimea

That is true, and yet, I can't think of any situation where it would be wrong to allow Crimean's to vote on the issue. It is their future. They should have a say in it.

What is wrong , is for such a vote to be pushed through in just a few days, by a foreign nation who themselves are anything but impartial, all the while occupying the region with 20'000 troops who will ultimately be the ones monitoring/controlling the voting process. Worst of all, those same troops have shut down all media broadcasts except what is officially condoned by Russia.

Even if we know nothing about Crimea, the people that live there, or what they think, decent human beings should at least be able to agree that this is unacceptably wrong. Anyway, the international community obviously won't accept the outcome of any vote under such farcical conditions.

 

[k0de]

Yes, borders were still there, but the republics were definitely not individual countries. Just like in the United States, where the individual states aren't countries either. The Russian army would have marched into any republic that claimed such autonomy.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union

There is nothing illegal about redistricting on that scale. The country I live in would also have recently broken the law if it was. Again, are there any legitimate* sources that back up the claim of illegality?

* Not Russian, elementary school, history textbooks. As we all know, the worst way to learn about any country's history is to read their own textbooks, which are always biased, but in the case of centrally controlled and more authoritarian countries like Russia, border on propaganda.


I don't understand what problem you are referring to. Anyway, I agree that the people of Crimea deserve to vote on what country they want to belong to.

HOWEVER, those people deserve an honest debate before making a decision. Currently, the Russian military is occupying the region and has forcefully replaced all pro-Western TV and radio broadcasting with pro-Russian broadcasting. Any election under such conditions is a farce.

Get Ukraine to promise to hold such a vote within six months, leave the country, and get the U.N. involved to monitor the voting process. Then the world will respect the vote. As it is now, it's just a very cheap Russian power grab. At least that is how I see it.

Agree! Crimea should a honest vote to decide which country they belong to.

 

[Fade_z]

Agree! Crimea should a honest vote to decide which country they belong to.

And how do you know the "international community" (Better known as Western Europe and America) won't push the Crimean's into an pro-European decision/government?

It's not like they all do this out of the kindness of their heart

 

[Fade_z]

Well, okay, but why don't you just make your point instead of just throwing out a fact that doesn't further the conversation? Yes, the borders between the republics existed. So? Countries all over the world redraw their internal boarders all the time. That isn't illegal anywhere else, so why should it be in Russia? Since nothing on the web supports the claim, and it apparently can't be backed up either, I'm going to call BS. More likely than not, it's just another propaganda line people are parroting without putting much thought into it.



That is true, and yet, I can't think of any situation where it would be wrong to allow Crimean's to vote on the issue. It is their future. They should have a say in it.

What is wrong , is for such a vote to be pushed through in just a few days, by a foreign nation who themselves are anything but impartial, all the while occupying the region with 20'000 troops who will ultimately be the ones monitoring/controlling the voting process. Worst of all, those same troops have shut down all media broadcasts except what is officially condoned by Russia.

Even if we know nothing about Crimea, the people that live their, or what they think, decent human beings should at least be able to agree that this is unacceptably wrong. Anyway, the international community obviously won't accept the outcome of any vote under such farcical conditions.

I think btw that the int. Community won't do anything of an noticeable impact if the vote succeeds like this.

Like we didnt do anything about Georgia, or basically any conflict in which the opposing country is to powerful.

And i'm not saying I agree with Russia, but there isn't anything we will or can do that will stop them from taking Crimea

 

[a5cent]

Like we didnt do anything about Georgia, or basically any conflict in which the opposing country is to powerful.
And i'm not saying I agree with Russia, but there isn't anything we will or can do that will stop them from taking Crimea

Yes, I already agreed that the West won't go to war with Russia over Crimea. But war is not the only option. If Europe were to stop importing Russian gas and oil, I think that would definitely make Putin rethink his position. Add to that a U.N. sanctioned trade embargo and I think that would already be pretty persuasive. If that still doesn't work, countries could further freeze the assets of the richest 500 Russian oligarchs. I'm pretty sure Putin's resistance would crumble in less than three seconds. The problem is that would hurt the West too, so the question is how important these things are to our governments compared to our economic interests.

I suspect most of eastern Europe wants to send a message to Russia, telling them that it is no longer acceptable for Russia to meddle in their internal affairs. What western governments want I do not know, but either way, if Crimea does change hands, it will cost the Russians something.

 

[Fade_z]

Yes, I already agreed that the West won't go to war with Russia over Crimea. But war is not the only option. If Europe were to stop importing Russian gas and oil, I think that would definitely make Putin rethink his position. Add to that a U.N. sanctioned trade embargo and I think that would already be pretty persuasive. If that still doesn't work, countries could further freeze the assets of the richest 500 Russian oligarchs. I'm pretty sure Putin's resistance would crumble in less than three seconds. The problem is that would hurt the West too, so the question is how important these things are to our governments compared to our economic interests.

I suspect most of eastern Europe wants to send a message to Russia, telling them that it is no longer acceptable for Russia to meddle in their internal affairs. What western governments want I do not know, but either way, if Crimea does change hands, it will cost the Russians something.

Keep in mind that Europe needs the oil and gas more then Russia needs the money
And it won't cost them, they wouldn't have risked it otherwise.
UN sanctions are pure BS, its not a spur of the moment decision putin made you know...

And all Russia now really did was send troops and takeover outposts without killing anybody.
And if you look around the internet that alot of people actually took pictures with Russian soldiers whilst posing, hugging or even kissing the soldiers, not something they would scene on such a scale.

In my opinion only the ones involved could honestly judge the situation, face it most of us get our news from CNN or the BBC

 

[a5cent]

Keep in mind that Europe needs the oil and gas more then Russia needs the money

Source, or it ain't so.

UN sanctions are pure BS ...

Tell that to the Russian Rubel that is already falling. It seems most of the world will be participating in further sanctions if necessary.

And if you look around the internet that alot of people actually took pictures with Russian soldiers whilst posing, hugging or even kissing the soldiers, not something they would scene on such a scale.

In "The Kreml Gazette", sure. What else would you expect? In more independent media, you get a less rosy picture.

 

[Fade_z]

Source, or it ain't so.



Tell that to the Russian Rubel that is already falling. It seems most of the world will be participating in further sanctions if necessary.



In "The Kreml Gazette", sure. What else would you expect? In more independent media, you get a less rosy picture.

The dollar also plummeted and they are still around, its just not gonna help at all. Take my word on that, we'll see in the following weeks and months to follow

 

[a5cent]

Depends what you mean with "help". I would be surprised if Russia walked out of this without Crimea. I do think the international community will extract some concessions in exchange however. At least a few treaties and guarantees. That is what the rest of the world's involvement is about. Crimea is just the bargaining chip.

Anyway, not all currency fluctuations are equal, so your comparison to the dollar in this case makes little sense, but I agree, we will see...

Take care.

 

[spazzmeister]

The actual "International Community" ie South America, Africa, Middle East and Asia do not care.
Russia is walking away with Crimea from all of this. That is how negotiations will end. Europe (Oops, Germany) won't do anything because Big Brother America won't do anything.

 

[a5cent]

The actual "International Community" ie South America, Africa, Middle East and Asia do not care.
Russia is walking away with Crimea from all of this. That is how negotiations will end. Europe (Oops, Germany) won't do anything because Big Brother America won't do anything.

I'd say every country in the world is part of the international community. If every person made their own list of who is in that community and who isn't, then we wouldn't have one to begin with.

IMHO the question is not who is "actually" part of that community and who isn't, but who has both the desire and the power to affect outcomes. None of countries in the regions you mentioned have that power. The most anybody can expect from them is a public statement condemning or supporting Russia's actions, and eventually to participate in sanctions if they so choose. Many (if not most) of the countries in the regions you mentioned all condemned Russia's actions, so they cared at least enough to publicly state what side they stand on.

I don't think anyone in this thread expects Crimea to remain in Ukraine's hands. The question is at what cost to Russia Crimea will be traded.

 

[Ramazan Bilgin]

One guy in this thread wrote that Russia invades that region to protect its own citizens. it's doubtful whether this guy knows Russia's history. Crimea had belonged to Crimean Tatars after some empires such as Germanic. It was medieval period , so they could conquer that land and settled around that region furthermore they have built many empires. Currently there is a referendum in Crimea whether it would participate to Russia or not. All we know it is out of logic to have such a referendum. It is obvious that region has a lot Russians. It's result is clear. Some of Tatars are sending their child to western Ukraine to protect them. One last thing that i should tell before finishing my post that is that region has lots of russians because in soviet era Tatars were deported forcefully. Some of them could return their motherland but there are still many live in other countries.

 

[a5cent]

One last thing that i should tell before finishing my post that is that region has lots of russians because in soviet era Tatars were deported forcefully. Some of them could return their motherland but there are still many live in other countries.

Yes. If the Tatars were not deported, then the ethnic Russian majority wouldn't exist in Crimea today. However, while that is yet another example of unacceptable Russian behaviour, at some point we need to let go of the past. If we can't let go of such age old grudges, we'll be fighting wars left and right, because every piece of land was at some point owned by others than the ones holding it today. What I think is more relevant, is the promise Russia made to the Ukraine after the Soviet Union crumbled. Russia guaranteed to respect Ukraine's borders and accept them as an independent nation, in exchange for handing back to Russia one of the largest stockpiles of Soviet nuclear weapons. That was in 1994.