01-14-2015 02:23 PM
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  1. KarmaEcrivain94's Avatar
    There has been an awful terrorist attack in the center of Paris which killed 12 people. It was against liberty of speech. Please show the world that it isn't only France that is united for free speech and against terrorism, by using the #JeSuisCharlie hashtag, (I am Charlie, "Charlie hebdo" being the Name of the magasine headquarters that were attacked).

    Terrorism sucks, ignoring it is worse.
    planetkhd likes this.
    01-07-2015 03:45 PM
  2. tiziano27's Avatar
    Until now I don't see any evidence of terrorism. This could be just a mass murder motivated by the hateful anti-Islamic publications of the magazine.

    Free speech is not to insult people or promote hate, I'm definitely not Charlie Hebdo.
    01-07-2015 09:13 PM
  3. bmetelsky's Avatar
    Je Suis Charlie
    01-07-2015 10:53 PM
  4. bijak_riyandi's Avatar
    On one side, freedom is a sorry excuse when you ignore your boundaries, which is another people or another group's freedom.
    Seeing what the mag's has done, I'd say that this incident happened because of their own mistake of igniting the flame.

    On the other side, Islam doesn't promote violence or revenge. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the very man that was caricatured by Charlie Hebdo, never took revenge on the person who threw garbage at him when he's on his way for prayer. Instead, he paid the person a visit when she was ill and didn't throw something at him.
    Sadly, some Muslims doesn't have this kind of manner taught by the Prophet.
    Qais Abu-Hasan likes this.
    01-07-2015 11:27 PM
  5. KarmaEcrivain94's Avatar
    You're both right. They did kind of go looking for something like this to happen. But 12 people (including 2 police officers and some people who had nothing to do with Charlie Hebdo) didn't deserve to die.
    01-07-2015 11:55 PM
  6. KarmaEcrivain94's Avatar
    The 2 assholes are stuck in a factory, with hostages, and surrounded by the G.I.G.N. (The french swat). There are 9 helicopters, and apparently there are big explosions going on.

    In the meantime, there have been 3 more attacks. One yesterday morning (that killed a young police officer) and 2 today, which, for the moment haven't killed anyone, but they've got hostages.

    This sucks :(
    bradleymcc6 likes this.
    01-09-2015 10:18 AM
  7. bijak_riyandi's Avatar
    What you failed to mention is there were attacks on a masjid and a kebab restaurant yesterday.

    It's a sad week for humanity.
    01-09-2015 11:55 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    On one side, freedom is a sorry excuse when you ignore your boundaries, which is another people or another group's freedom.
    Seeing what the mag's has done, I'd say that this incident happened because of their own mistake of igniting the flame.
    Your idea that anything Charlie Hebdo ever published infringed on "another group's freedoms" is ludicrous. I can mock and ridicule Islam (or anything else for that matter) all day and every day for years on end, without that infringing on any Muslims freedom to believe whatever they want, go wherever they want, and do whatever they want. Nobody was ever less free due to a cartoon Charlie Hebdo published. They are satirists for crying out loud. They are supposed to be provocative! Nobody would read them if they weren't! That magazine insulted literally every French politician and every religion under the sun. Why aren't politicians or other religions throwing fire bombs in their offices? For some reason it's only ever some fringe elements of the Muslim community that are too weak to deal with it, but that's not my point. This post isn't about any particular religion, but rather about what it means to live in a free society. My point is this:

    You have absolutely no understanding of what freedom of speech is and what it entails.

    Do you really think anything that anybody finds controversial or insulting should be off limits and can't be questioned or mocked? That would be utterly absurd!
    Uncontroversial speech doesn't need its freedoms protected! It's only when people disagree with something, that people's right to say it must be protected!

    Freedom of speech must be protected for all kinds of speech, no matter who it offends. Why? Because neither you, society, religion, or anyone else can competently decide who's ideas should be censored and who's shouldn't. Humanity would still be stuck in the middle ages if philosophers, scientists and spiritual leaders didn't occasionally cross the boundaries of what most considered to be in good taste. That always involves somebody or a group of people taking offence!

    I find your insinuation that anybody working at Charlie Hebdo "had it coming to them" highly offensive. Far more offensive than any cartoon any of these guys ever drew. Would I want you executed for what I consider to be nicely veiled, but ultimately extremely unsophisticated words of intolerance? No. Of course not. Despite finding it utter rubbish, I would literally be willing to fight for your right to say it. That is what freedom of speech is. You should be granting the same rights to the staff at Charlie Hebdo, without insinuating that provocative satire is deserving of punishment of any kind.

    With all due respect

    Je suis Charlie
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-09-2015 at 03:43 PM. Reason: spelling only
    01-09-2015 01:48 PM
  9. bijak_riyandi's Avatar
    Your idea that anything Charlie Hebdo ever published infringed on "another group's freedoms" is ludicrous. I can mock and ridicule Islam (or anything else for that matter) all day and every day for years on end, without that infringing on any Muslims freedom to believe whatever they want, go wherever they want, and do whatever they want.
    I guess attacking Charlie Hebdo isn't included in "whatever", right?

    Nobody was ever less free due to a cartoon Charlie Hebdo published. They are satirists for crying out loud. They are supposed to be provocative! Nobody would read them if they weren't! That magazine insulted literally every French politician and every religion under the sun. Why aren't politicians or other religions throwing fire bombs in their offices? For some reason it's only ever some fringe elements of the Muslim community that are too weak to deal with it, but that's not my point. This post isn't about any particular religion, but rather about what it means to live in a free society.
    There are 7 billion people in the world, each with their own level of temperament.
    Human being is the most complicated species to deal with, so why do you need to provoke? Especially when you know that there are some misled Muslims out there with relatively short temper.

    My point is this:

    You have absolutely no understanding of what freedom of speech is and what it entails.
    I don't believe in "freedom of speech". I do believe that everything you say will have an effect on yourself.
    That's why I try to put respect on everything I said or write (but sometimes I lose to my temperament, but that's another case).

    Do you really think anything that anybody finds controversial or insulting should be off limits and can't be questioned or mocked? That would be utterly absurd!
    Uncontroversial speech doesn't need its freedoms protected! It's only when people disagree with something, that people's right to say it must be protected!

    Freedom of speech must be protected for all kinds of speech, no matter who it offends. Why? Because neither you, society, religion, or anyone else can competently decide who's ideas should be censored and who's shouldn't.
    For all I've learned, there are more than one way to express criticism with respect and etiquette.
    Insults never solve a problem: it creates a turbulence.

    This is what's wrong with "freedom of speech". Everyone who uses this excuse (and also the phrase "we live in a free world") tend to ignore respect and tend to believe that they're doing right and everyone else's wrong.
    Respect is what could keep the world in peace. A freedom without respecting other people is a stupid freedom.

    Humanity would still be stuck in the middle ages if philosophers, scientists and spiritual leaders didn't occasionally cross the boundaries of what most considered to be in good taste. That always involves somebody or a group of people taking offence!
    If humanity had stuck in the middle ages, would that be a bad thing at all?
    Less murder, less rape, people dress in a proper way. Doesn't sound really bad to me.

    I find your insinuation that anybody working at Charlie Hebdo "had it coming to them" highly offensive. Far more offensive than any cartoon any of these guys ever drew. Would I want you executed for what I consider to be nicely veiled, but ultimately extremely unsophisticated words of intolerance? No. Of course not. Despite finding it utter rubbish, I would literally be willing to fight for your right to say it. That is what freedom of speech is. You should be granting the same rights to the staff at Charlie Hebdo, without insinuating that provocative satire is deserving of punishment of any kind.
    If you understood how high we regard Prophet Muhammad, you wouldn't say something like that. It's very offensive to me.

    Finally, I hope what happened to Charlie Hebdo could serve as a lesson for the world.
    For all Muslims wherever you are, this incident is something that our Prophet might not agree with. These radicals are giving Islam an even worse name in Europe and also the world in general. Whatever you do in the world will be questioned by God in the Hereafter. If you gave Islam a bad name here with the things you've done, what would God do to you there?
    Let's show the world what it means to be a Muslim. God told us to be patient and do good deeds (Quraan 103:3), and our Prophet taughts us to be kind and useful for other people (Hadith At-Tabrani).

    And for all media, I hope you all remember to respect people. Incidents like this is something everyone should avoid in the future.
    BatteryLife likes this.
    01-09-2015 05:29 PM
  10. KarmaEcrivain94's Avatar
    As a side note, I saw this on Twitter, it was published by "God's Twitter":

    "I am the all mighty, all powerful, omniscient god, I have created the universe and humanity, but I can't take a joke".

    btw, you're right, the attacks on the mosque and the kebab suck. I hate the people that think all muslims are radical islamists almost as much as I hate the terrorists.

    For info, all 4 jihadists (those stuck in the factory, and those in the supermarket) both got killed by the G.I.G.N. Sadly, those in the supermarket had already killed 4 hostages :'(
    01-09-2015 06:02 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    I can mock and ridicule Islam (or anything else for that matter) all day and every day for years on end, without that infringing on any Muslims freedom to believe whatever they want, go wherever they want, and do whatever they want.
    I guess attacking Charlie Hebdo isn't included in "whatever", right?
    Can we just skip over the stupid rhetorical questions please? My point is that no amount of mockery or ridicule can limit the freedoms of any group of people. Freedoms can't be "mocked away", and no Muslim had to sacrifice any freedoms due to a cartoon published by Charlie Hebdo. Obviously such freedoms are limited by reason and French law, but those laws apply equally to all French citizens, irrespective of colour, race or religion. It's not a difficult concept. Let's not pretend it is.

    Humanity would still be stuck in the middle ages if philosophers, scientists and spiritual leaders didn't occasionally cross the boundaries of what most considered to be in good taste. That always involves somebody or a group of people taking offence!
    If humanity had stuck in the middle ages, would that be a bad thing at all?
    Less murder, less rape, people dress in a proper way. Doesn't sound really bad to me.
    Yes. You need to read up on history. The chances of you being rapped or dying in a war are far smaller today than they were at anytime during the middle ages. With that we haven't even addressed the very high chances of you living in utter poverty or disease killing you in your youth (in the mid 12th century the bubonic plague is estimated to have killed 30% - 60% of Europe's and the Middle East's entire population). Average life expectancy for someone in the middle ages was about 30.

    You are romanticising a past that never existed the way you imagine it did. The fact that middle eastern culture was at it's height during the middle ages, but in steady decline ever since, doesn't mean that was a more peaceful or safer era. It was the exact opposite.

    This is what's wrong with "freedom of speech". Everyone who uses this excuse (and also the phrase "we live in a free world") tend to ignore respect and tend to believe that they're doing right and everyone else's wrong.
    Respect is what could keep the world in peace. A freedom without respecting other people is a stupid freedom.
    Okay, fine. Then let me inform you that I find some parts of the Quran highly offensive. I kindly ask you to please respect my sensibilities and destroy any copies you may have, and cease all printing of the book. You might find that ridiculous, but it's a lot less ridiculous than being offended by a Charlie Hebdo cartoon. Since you don't believe in free speech, and believe that printed materials some find disrespectful aren't to be tolerated, I expect you'll burn your copies within 24h, right?... or not... So what now?

    Since you're unlikely to burn your holy books, is it then alright if I decide to kill a few of the people that work the printing presses and then say: "this incident happened because of their own mistake, as they decided to keep printing these books that I find so offensive"? You can't have it both ways!

    Although I don't actually find anything offensive about the Quran, millions of people do, and Muslims don't deserve any more rights than anybody else, when it comes to deciding which materials are tolerable and which aren't. Is it so hard for you to see your ridiculous double standard?

    12 people died last week, in the name of Allah. Every single Muslim on this planet should be outraged. They should be standing as one, unanimous in their view that every single person who believes this murderous act was even slightly justified, will burn in hell along side the Kouachi Brothers for all eternity. Every single Muslim should be screaming that these 12 people's right to live was a million times more important than anybody's desire not to be offended. Instead we get people top-toeing around the issue and indirectly blaming the victims with utter ridiculousness such as this:

    I'd say that this incident happened because of their own mistake of igniting the flame.
    You've been taught and have bought into this BS ideology, which suggests that free speech is not good, and that it's only an excuse to be disrespectful. You have the luxury to believe that, but only because many of the people who take offence from books and drawings produced in Islamic societies, also believe it's those societies right to distribute those works regardless. If Christians and Jews and Hindu's and whatnot were as easily offended as Muslims are, we'd constantly be blowing up each other's media outlets. That is the opposite of tolerance, and that your brain can logically twist that into thinking you are taking a stand for tolerance and respect is part of the problem. It's why YOU are part of the problem! You seriously need to be shaken, slapped around and woken up from your fallacy.

    Just to be clear, I'm not condemning Muslims or Islam or any religion at all. I am condemning a screwed up, contradictory and destructive mind-set. I don't even consider this a religious topic, as it's more a disagreement on what tolerance means and what makes an ideal society. That question transcends any particular religion. If we're ever to solve our problems, we need real tolerance, and that includes universal support for freedom of speech. Until all societies get that into their heads, people will continue to die for completely absurd reasons.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-09-2015 at 09:03 PM. Reason: spelling only
    palandri, aximtreo and sahib lopez like this.
    01-09-2015 08:15 PM
  12. anon9169769's Avatar
    Update... London mosque had an attack to today. I agree with freedom of speech but using violence is not the way to go about it
    01-09-2015 08:42 PM
  13. djeire84's Avatar
    Don't really think a tech forum is the place for these discussions. I know its in "Off Topic" section bit here is not the place for such discussion. Its only my opinion we come here to find solutions, news, troubleshooting and general light hearted comments about tech and tech related themes.
    aximtreo and ygtgngr like this.
    01-09-2015 08:46 PM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    Don't really think a tech forum is the place for these discussions. I know its in "Off Topic" section bit here is not the place for such discussion. Its only my opinion we come here to find solutions, news, troubleshooting and general light hearted comments about tech and tech related themes.
    I disagree. I think the topic is of such importance that it really does need to be discussed anywhere. It's one of the major issues of our time, and the more it is debated the better, particularly in places such as this, where people with different ideas from different cultures, who otherwise might not be exposed to such thoughts, meet. That doesn't happen everywhere.
    palandri likes this.
    01-09-2015 08:57 PM
  15. anon9169769's Avatar
    I agree and yet disagree with djeire84. It's a tech site so everything should be tech related...... BUT a5cent has a point. This is what the site needs. A place where we can have mixed views about the world
    a5cent, palandri and aximtreo like this.
    01-09-2015 09:10 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    This is what the site needs. A place where we can have mixed views about the world
    Well, that's kind of what the off-topic lounge is for, right? If you look at the paragraph right under the red text (at the top of the page), you'll see that topics diverging from tech are tolerated here.

    @bijak_riyandi
    I realize that I'm being really forceful here, and that I'm being hard on you. I don't know you, but I think chances are high that if we met at a party I'd take you to be an absolutely decent and good person. That doesn't mean that good people cant simultaneously harbour dangerous views, and I think what you are describing here is such a view. I don't think this is in any way particular to Islam or any other religion, so I hope you don't take it as an attack on your religious beliefs. We can find flaws in any society, completely independent of religions. It is an attack on your view of tolerance however. I don't expect to convince you of anything, but I do feel very strongly about this, and hope that I can at least get you and/or others to think about this in ways you maybe previously haven't.

    Either way, I wish you the best of luck.
    01-09-2015 09:29 PM
  17. bijak_riyandi's Avatar
    Update... London mosque had an attack to today.
    It's gonna be a hard year for Muslims in Europe :(

    @bijak_riyandi
    I realize that I'm being really forceful here, and that I'm being hard on you. I don't know you, but I think chances are high that if we met at a party I'd take you to be an absolutely decent and good person. That doesn't mean that good people cant simultaneously harbour dangerous views, and I think what you are describing here is such a view. I don't think this is in any way particular to Islam or any other religion, so I hope you don't take it as an attack on your religious beliefs. We can find flaws in any society, completely independent of religions. It is an attack on your view of tolerance however. I don't expect to convince you of anything, but I do feel very strongly about this, and hope that I can at least get you and/or others to think about this in ways you maybe previously haven't.

    Either way, I wish you the best of luck.
    It's your right if you see me as someone who has a radical thoughts and potentially dangerous.
    But for the record, in my original comment, I didn't side with the attackers either.

    It's a long read on your 2nd comment there and there are some thing that I would argue, but I wont.
    I don't want my temperament to control me today.

    I wish you the best of luck too, wherever you are.
    a5cent likes this.
    01-09-2015 09:59 PM
  18. djeire84's Avatar
    Just think issues such as religion, politics and war ain't really a topic we should be talking about here. Like as if what we say here is gonna make a blind bit of difference. Yes discuss it but not on sites such as this the only voice that counts is the one we use with our votes come election day. Yes its sad what happened but there are (unfortunately) worse atrocities committed every day in countries not important enough for media coverage. That's all I'm saying on the matter. Its windows central really that's all that should be discussed.
    01-10-2015 01:43 AM
  19. bmetelsky's Avatar
    A moderator has already spoken and indicated this is the appropriate place for this type of discussion.
    01-10-2015 01:51 AM
  20. AhmadSorour's Avatar
    I'm definitely NOT Charlie. AND I'm definitely NOT with terrorism.
    Actually, the magazine did a very big mistake. BUT, this doesn't mean that 12 needs to get killed! This is also a very big mistake.
    I'm Muslim btw. And if those people who killed the 12 guys were Muslims, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists.
    And why did that Magazine ignite the flame? Insulting other religions is a good thing? Insulting Millions of people is a good thing?
    Both are wrong, The Magazine and the terrorists. And also once again, This is no a reason for them to die. And once again, if they really were Muslims who did that, this doesn't mean that all Muslims are like that.
    djeire84, MSFTisMIA and amaso97 like this.
    01-10-2015 02:14 AM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    And once again, if they really were Muslims who did that, this doesn't mean that all Muslims are like that.
    We all agree on that. It's an important point to make, but it's also important to note that nobody here has claimed that to be the case.
    AhmadSorour likes this.
    01-10-2015 03:29 AM
  22. AhmadSorour's Avatar
    We all agree on that. It's an important point to make, but it's also important to note that nobody here has claimed otherwise.
    Yeah I know :) but I mentioned that cuz it really needs to be mentioned :)
    a5cent likes this.
    01-10-2015 03:33 AM
  23. anon9169769's Avatar
    Plus the French had every right to do them comic pics. In London we had a guy called hook hand hamza and he used to preach violence in finsbury mosque and was allowed to as it was "he's human rights" and how did we take it? By doing a demo... Yet when its the other way round when the French done a cartoon with no preach of violence then its "a whole different game" and they attacked with murder. So I personally (being English living in London) support the French. And no.. I am not racist. My ex many many years ago was Muslim but her cousin was racist against me and caused me to lose my job as she was my room leader (I couldn't take it any more and left my job) and caused us to break up. Seems like if white people makes fun of culture then its racist but if I Muslim or black person attacks then its "defending their go out" or "freedom of speech" like I said I am not racist. In fact I have had more relationships with multi culture women then with white women (once again I am white) dated a mixed race woman with spina biffida in a wheel chair and now with a Moroccan woman (after being dumped my Filipino girlfriend.... I have a thing for Filipino women) but without going to much off topic on my personal life the french had a right to print them pics why? Freedom of speech and I personally support the french
    01-10-2015 03:58 AM
  24. djeire84's Avatar
    Plus the French had every right to do them comic pics. In London we had a guy called hook hand hamza and he used to preach violence in finsbury mosque and was allowed to as it was "he's human rights" and how did we take it? By doing a demo... Yet when its the other way round when the French done a cartoon with no preach of violence then its "a whole different game" and they attacked with murder. So I personally (being English living in London) support the French. And no.. I am not racist. My ex many many years ago was Muslim but her cousin was racist against me and caused me to lose my job as she was my room leader (I couldn't take it any more and left my job) and caused us to break up. Seems like if white people makes fun of culture then its racist but if I Muslim or black person attacks then its "defending their go out" or "freedom of speech" like I said I am not racist. In fact I have had more relationships with multi culture women then with white women (once again I am white) dated a mixed race woman with spina biffida in a wheel chair and now with a Moroccan woman (after being dumped my Filipino girlfriend.... I have a thing for Filipino women) but without going to much off topic on my personal life the french had a right to print them pics why? Freedom of speech and I personally support the french
    Tiny bit too much info there. Now that's how you do an "off topic" post lol
    01-10-2015 05:23 AM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    Just think issues such as religion, politics and war ain't really a topic we should be talking about here. Like as if what we say here is gonna make a blind bit of difference. Yes discuss it but not on sites such as this the only voice that counts is the one we use with our votes come election day. Yes its sad what happened but there are (unfortunately) worse atrocities committed every day in countries not important enough for media coverage. That's all I'm saying on the matter. Its windows central really that's all that should be discussed.
    I respectfully disagree. I think whomever the U.S. votes into office as their next president, is about as relevant to solving this particular issue as what type of bread I prefer for breakfast. This is not a political problem. It's a societal problem, rooted in counterproductive beliefs held by majorities of people in middle eastern cultures, not just the radical Islamist fringe. The only way to solve the problem is to painstakingly convince people, one by one, that some of the things they were taught in school, or picked up simply by living in their societies, may not be as wise as they initially thought. It's about hearts and minds and beliefs.

    The U.S. has unfortunately squandered any capability they might have had to convince anybody in the middle east about anything. The only reason the U.S. remains at all relevant in the region is due to their influence over Israel. At this point, the only productive thing the U.S. can do is to remove themselves from the equation entirely. The people who will ultimately solve this issue are the intellectuals and spiritual leaders that live in middle eastern societies. Unfortunately, their voices are currently drowned out or censored, precisely because they live in societies where people can't cope with dissenting opinions and free speech. This issue literally sits at the centre of what is holding their entire culture back.

    You may be right that my attempts to get people to rethink their views are futile (although my personal experiences suggests otherwise), but you won't stop me from trying. If all reasonable people tried to extend a hand to someone who believes differently, and embraced any opportunity to discuss our differences, I'm sure that would ultimately represent our fastest route to success. It must start somewhere, so why not at least try?
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-10-2015 at 10:19 AM. Reason: spelling only
    palandri likes this.
    01-10-2015 05:24 AM
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