05-11-2016 05:43 PM
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  1. zhris's Avatar
    So I forget the specifics, but when the Sex Pistols came to play a concert in Texas (one of the first, and possibly only, shows in the US), Johnny Rotten played maybe one song, then looked out into the audience and said "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" before the band walked off the stage and drove back to the airport.

    I feel cheated, Microsoft. Over and over again. I bought into the Zune, in a big way; the Z80, the Z120, a couple docks. It was (and to many people still is) one of the best portable media players ever made. MSFT never sold it outside of the US, never (to my knowledge) advertised the darn thing, and then abruptly killed it because no one way buying it.

    Now take the paragraph above, and replace 'Zune' with 'Kin'. Still valid! I'm guessing 'Windows Mobile 10 hardware' will be too. Although with phones, there's now an additional twist of the knife; there *is* cool new stuff on the horizon, but if you're a already a WinMo user, you can't have it! At least not without buying all new hardware... take for example my spiffy L640 (which I paid full price for the first week it was out, TYVM). Can it do Windows Hello? No, I need to buy a new phone for that. Oh... well how about Continuum? Nope, but we can sell you a 950 which looks just as cheap and is barely more powerful... for six times the price.

    Right about now, I'm sure many of you are warming up your 'technology evolves, get over it' speech. To which I humbly reply; bite me. Allow me to present Exhibits One and Two:

    1) One of the hallmarks of Nokia (and Lumia by extension) is its legendary durability and longevity. We've all read stories about phones being washed, lost in a river, run over... the things are even frikkin bullet-proof! With MSFT's artificially induced hardware obsolescence, they basically take put that legacy on a platter and take a hefty dump on it. Sure, my 640 will last for years... but it'll be so gimped I won't want to use it.

    2) 'Retrenching' is simply the new 'soon'. It means the exact same thing; "We'll take mobile seriously, we promise... just not right now." MSFT rushed out a half-baked 950 simply to appease fanboys, and now they don't even want to bother (read as: "We'll let the OEM's have a turn, we're done with hardware for now.".

    You may call me a hater, and you'd be, for the most part, wrong; I've been a fan of MSFT since inserting disk 3 of 12 to get Win3.1 installed, and I live and die by Office. But, with the exception of maybe Xbox, Microsoft sucks at hardware. Sure, they can pump out a decent keyboard or mouse, but anything more complicated than an input peripheral is doomed if it has the four-color flag on it.

    Thank you for your time.
    v535, Skamath, Jcmg62 and 1 others like this.
    05-08-2016 11:19 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I think the main issue is that Microsoft never wanted to be a hardware company, whereas Apple has always been a hardware company. Google never wanted to be a hardware company either, and it sold off Motorola Mobility to Lenovo.

    Windows (desktop and legacy mobile) was also the operating system that customers got when they purchased PCs or phones from hardware companies. It looks like things are moving back in that direction again.
    05-08-2016 11:57 PM
  3. robsbrutal's Avatar
    I understand what you're saying. But I really do think what they are doing right now is going to work in the long run. I own a pc a Lumia 950 a Lumia 640 a surface and an Xbox one. Windows 10 mobile was really rough coming out but in the last 6 months its really blossomed into something really great. All the integration between my devices is really fun for me. My 950 is great and I came from an iPhone. Which i consider the safest phone to own. I think this time next year things will be flowing nicely system wide and everything will be amazing. They are on the right path in my opinion.

    Sent from mTalk
    pankaj981, aximtreo and RumoredNow like this.
    05-09-2016 12:43 AM
  4. Pete's Avatar
    Windows 10 isn't going away for a while yet, and it's been created to run on multiple device platforms. That's more support right there than the one-off products like Zune and Kin (I used to have a Zune too, and used to love it, but the iPod was just a whole lot better).

    There's been widespread misunderstanding about the whole "retrenching" thing, mostly about Microsoft dropping mobile. The only real thing that's happened is that Microsoft gave up fighting to gain market share because it was simply uneconomical to do so. Nokia tried to gain market share by simply creating more and more handsets (at one point, there was over 2500 variants of firmware).

    So now we have Windows 10 that can run on phones, which ties in well with the Windows 10 on your home Surface/laptop/desktop.

    Sure, people are still going to stick with their Android and Apple devices in their droves, and Microsoft doesn't particularly care what product they buy as long as their smaller phone hardware division makes a profit (doesn't have to be huge, just needs not to make a loss).

    If Microsoft was giving up on mobile, would we be having Insider builds released as frequently as the desktop builds?

    People are always going to find the doom-and-gloom way of thinking. I don't particularly care, I have the independent view that I have a phone that works in the way I want it to.
    05-09-2016 01:42 AM
  5. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Planned obsolesce is certainly not a new or even exclusive condition. We see it in many industries.

    This does not alleviate your personal feelings of betrayal, however.

    The best any of us can hope for is some sort of recognition of and reconciliation with the fact that technology is growing exponentially all around us. The new ever kills the old...
    05-09-2016 11:15 AM
  6. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    Microsoft Lumia 950 vs. Microsoft Lumia 640 LTE - GSMArena.com

    The short of it: 950 has double the pixel count per inch, faster processor, better GPU, bigger battery, slightly bigger screen, bigger internal memory, better front camera, better back camera, faster battery charging. So combine all those specs and the current price of about 500USD is kind of okay
    05-10-2016 07:02 AM
  7. The19thD0CT0R's Avatar
    So I forget the specifics, but when the Sex Pistols came to play a concert in Texas (one of the first, and possibly only, shows in the US), Johnny Rotten played maybe one song, then looked out into the audience and said "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" before the band walked off the stage and drove back to the airport.

    I feel cheated, Microsoft. Over and over again. I bought into the Zune, in a big way; the Z80, the Z120, a couple docks. It was (and to many people still is) one of the best portable media players ever made. MSFT never sold it outside of the US, never (to my knowledge) advertised the darn thing, and then abruptly killed it because no one way buying it.

    Now take the paragraph above, and replace 'Zune' with 'Kin'. Still valid! I'm guessing 'Windows Mobile 10 hardware' will be too. Although with phones, there's now an additional twist of the knife; there *is* cool new stuff on the horizon, but if you're a already a WinMo user, you can't have it! At least not without buying all new hardware... take for example my spiffy L640 (which I paid full price for the first week it was out, TYVM). Can it do Windows Hello? No, I need to buy a new phone for that. Oh... well how about Continuum? Nope, but we can sell you a 950 which looks just as cheap and is barely more powerful... for six times the price.

    Right about now, I'm sure many of you are warming up your 'technology evolves, get over it' speech. To which I humbly reply; bite me. Allow me to present Exhibits One and Two:

    1) One of the hallmarks of Nokia (and Lumia by extension) is its legendary durability and longevity. We've all read stories about phones being washed, lost in a river, run over... the things are even frikkin bullet-proof! With MSFT's artificially induced hardware obsolescence, they basically take put that legacy on a platter and take a hefty dump on it. Sure, my 640 will last for years... but it'll be so gimped I won't want to use it.

    2) 'Retrenching' is simply the new 'soon'. It means the exact same thing; "We'll take mobile seriously, we promise... just not right now." MSFT rushed out a half-baked 950 simply to appease fanboys, and now they don't even want to bother (read as: "We'll let the OEM's have a turn, we're done with hardware for now.".

    You may call me a hater, and you'd be, for the most part, wrong; I've been a fan of MSFT since inserting disk 3 of 12 to get Win3.1 installed, and I live and die by Office. But, with the exception of maybe Xbox, Microsoft sucks at hardware. Sure, they can pump out a decent keyboard or mouse, but anything more complicated than an input peripheral is doomed if it has the four-color flag on it.

    Thank you for your time.
    Incorrect. Rotten said those words at the end of the last show (not after one song) they ever played as a band, at the Winterland Ballroom in San Francisco (not Texas), January 1978. It's pretty much a key moment in Sex Pistols history. Curious as to where this version of the story came from, because that's not how it happened. Footage from that show, as seen in the doc "The Filth and the Fury", proves this.
    Last edited by The19thD0CT0R; 05-10-2016 at 10:23 AM.
    05-10-2016 10:04 AM
  8. Krystianpants's Avatar
    So you expect things like continuum, features developed for newer hardware, to work on old hardware? You expect windows hello on hardware that doesn't support it? Features are added to operating systems as hardware becomes better to be able to make use of it. This is the way the tech industry works. You buy something and 6 months later it's old news. It has always been like this. Tech is advancing so fast that you're always behind unless you are one of those people that is willing to blow the money to have the latest and greatest. Heck I remember I bought my GTX 670 Nvidia card. It was awesome, played everything maxed. Then a few months later more powerful cards came out, games with features that my card couldn't handle. It's life. I played them the way I could and still enjoyed them. I still use this card to this day and I enjoy my games and tweak settings to get the best experience. I can't get the full blown experience, but I don't expect to.

    When spring 2017 comes around and Redstone 2 is launched, again most of our stuff will become old and will be missing features, but who cares. I got the 950xl and it was expensive and I know that their new lineup will likely make it pale in comparison. My guess is it will have snapdragon 830 which was developed to contain specific features for use with redstone 2. And my 810 will be left behind. But I won't buy the new stuff right away. I know MS has issues with bugs for the first few months of any new hardware release. I'll continue using my 950xl and see if the new stuff is worth it. Maybe wait a few months for price drops. This is something I didn't do with the 950xl because I really needed a phone with a bigger screen. So I took the hit and now I could have saved a lot more money.

    Point is I could have added a few bucks and bought the iPhone 6s for the money I spent. But I didn't. It's because that was not what I wanted, that was not what I enjoyed using. So I spent my money wisely and am happy. So next time you spend your money, spend it wisely based on your current needs not on platform loyalty or expectations for the future.
    05-10-2016 10:12 AM
  9. Pete's Avatar
    Microsoft/Nokia did engineer flagship devices to last. This is why the 1520 lasted for 2 years (and is still a very capable and current phone, especially with Windows 10 Mobile on board), sure it doesn't have the latest Windows Hello hardware, but there's nothing to stop that handset from being easily capable of running Windows 10 Mobile for another year at the very least.

    Plenty of people complained about the lack of new flagship devices before the 950/950XL was released - the answer is that the 1520 was more than fit enough to last.

    New flagship devices are only produced if they show significant advantages above what went before.
    05-10-2016 10:22 AM
  10. Steve Adams's Avatar
    I think the main issue is that Microsoft never wanted to be a hardware company, whereas Apple has always been a hardware company. Google never wanted to be a hardware company either, and it sold off Motorola Mobility to Lenovo.

    Windows (desktop and legacy mobile) was also the operating system that customers got when they purchased PCs or phones from hardware companies. It looks like things are moving back in that direction again.
    If they never wanted to be a hardware company, why spend all the dough on purchasing NOKIA? Why spend on developing the surface? Sure they did, They just don't know how to 1. Market their hardware, 2. They have NO IDEA on how to treat these devices or their owners once one is sold and 3. They are too busy courting apple. If I was MSFT I would tell Apple to stick it when it comes to ANY software wanted to put on their devices. Apple has NO choice but send out crappy iTunes to windows users as if they never they would fail miserably. On the otherhand. MSFT was quite alright without ever giving apple users access to any MSFT content. If I was running MSFT I would make my device marketing fore front of what I am trying to accomplish. MSFT has AWESOME hardware, software etc. they just miss everything inbetween, customer service, marketing, excitement. The 950/xl are 2 awesome phones, just as any surface is/was an amazing piece of hardware. Killing off RT completely was a mistake, instead of keeping RT and developing code to run any windows app on it......same goes for the latest debachale with w10 where they renagged on many bold claims/promises etc to their core user base. ME. I agree somewhat with what the OP is saying...not about the 640 running hello/continuum...the 640 is WAY underpowered, not having the correct sensors etc. Sorry bro. BUT MSFT has lots to blame themselves for as well. They are tanking in great fashion, besides in the business side of things....ALMOST blackberry type tanking in the mobile side of things....the only difference, is that SATYA has nothing taking up all of his time like Jim had with the hockey team and all.
    05-10-2016 10:23 AM
  11. Steve Adams's Avatar
    So you expect things like continuum, features developed for newer hardware, to work on old hardware? You expect windows hello on hardware that doesn't support it? Features are added to operating systems as hardware becomes better to be able to make use of it. This is the way the tech industry works. You buy something and 6 months later it's old news. It has always been like this. Tech is advancing so fast that you're always behind unless you are one of those people that is willing to blow the money to have the latest and greatest. Heck I remember I bought my GTX 670 Nvidia card. It was awesome, played everything maxed. Then a few months later more powerful cards came out, games with features that my card couldn't handle. It's life. I played them the way I could and still enjoyed them. I still use this card to this day and I enjoy my games and tweak settings to get the best experience. I can't get the full blown experience, but I don't expect to.

    When spring 2017 comes around and Redstone 2 is launched, again most of our stuff will become old and will be missing features, but who cares. I got the 950xl and it was expensive and I know that their new lineup will likely make it pale in comparison. My guess is it will have snapdragon 830 which was developed to contain specific features for use with redstone 2. And my 810 will be left behind. But I won't buy the new stuff right away. I know MS has issues with bugs for the first few months of any new hardware release. I'll continue using my 950xl and see if the new stuff is worth it. Maybe wait a few months for price drops. This is something I didn't do with the 950xl because I really needed a phone with a bigger screen. So I took the hit and now I could have saved a lot more money.

    Point is I could have added a few bucks and bought the iPhone 6s for the money I spent. But I didn't. It's because that was not what I wanted, that was not what I enjoyed using. So I spent my money wisely and am happy. So next time you spend your money, spend it wisely based on your current needs not on platform loyalty or expectations for the future.

    Expect to be buying another phone if you want all of what "redstone" will offer. I can guarantee you that. Just sayin!
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    05-10-2016 10:25 AM
  12. v535's Avatar
    Yeah MS really need to step up in hardware unit, since the future is hardware and software collaboration. Surface line-up looks good and has a premium feel to it. I feel MS must partner with NOKIA(I know MS would never will, since they want to come out of NOKIAs shadow) to deliver durable phones with premium feel that can withstand shots from a shot-gun(pun intended) and also create World's First Phone compatible to run 3 OSes namely, WP/WM,iOS(jailbroken and heavily modded OS) and Android.
    I think MS must invest more in Hardware Business to compete with the likes of Apple.
    05-10-2016 10:33 AM
  13. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Expect to be buying another phone if you want all of what "redstone" will offer. I can guarantee you that. Just sayin!
    No doubt redstone 2 will require new hardware. But that's progress for you. It's nice that MS does certain things to maintain backwards compatibility. Like the new surface pro 4 dock etc. But some things are just too ingrained in the relationship of hardware and software. If a chipset offers a new set of registers and caching mechanism you can't just apply it to old hardware. It's that relationship between software/hardware that allows for innovation. Software can't do everything on its own.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    05-10-2016 11:30 AM
  14. kaktus1389's Avatar
    So I forget the specifics, but when the Sex Pistols came to play a concert in Texas (one of the first, and possibly only, shows in the US), Johnny Rotten played maybe one song, then looked out into the audience and said "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" before the band walked off the stage and drove back to the airport.

    I feel cheated, Microsoft. Over and over again. I bought into the Zune, in a big way; the Z80, the Z120, a couple docks. It was (and to many people still is) one of the best portable media players ever made. MSFT never sold it outside of the US, never (to my knowledge) advertised the darn thing, and then abruptly killed it because no one way buying it.

    Now take the paragraph above, and replace 'Zune' with 'Kin'. Still valid! I'm guessing 'Windows Mobile 10 hardware' will be too. Although with phones, there's now an additional twist of the knife; there *is* cool new stuff on the horizon, but if you're a already a WinMo user, you can't have it! At least not without buying all new hardware... take for example my spiffy L640 (which I paid full price for the first week it was out, TYVM). Can it do Windows Hello? No, I need to buy a new phone for that. Oh... well how about Continuum? Nope, but we can sell you a 950 which looks just as cheap and is barely more powerful... for six times the price.

    Right about now, I'm sure many of you are warming up your 'technology evolves, get over it' speech. To which I humbly reply; bite me. Allow me to present Exhibits One and Two:

    1) One of the hallmarks of Nokia (and Lumia by extension) is its legendary durability and longevity. We've all read stories about phones being washed, lost in a river, run over... the things are even frikkin bullet-proof! With MSFT's artificially induced hardware obsolescence, they basically take put that legacy on a platter and take a hefty dump on it. Sure, my 640 will last for years... but it'll be so gimped I won't want to use it.

    2) 'Retrenching' is simply the new 'soon'. It means the exact same thing; "We'll take mobile seriously, we promise... just not right now." MSFT rushed out a half-baked 950 simply to appease fanboys, and now they don't even want to bother (read as: "We'll let the OEM's have a turn, we're done with hardware for now.".

    You may call me a hater, and you'd be, for the most part, wrong; I've been a fan of MSFT since inserting disk 3 of 12 to get Win3.1 installed, and I live and die by Office. But, with the exception of maybe Xbox, Microsoft sucks at hardware. Sure, they can pump out a decent keyboard or mouse, but anything more complicated than an input peripheral is doomed if it has the four-color flag on it.

    Thank you for your time.
    So you want to say that Surface Book and Surface Pro 4 suck aswell?
    05-10-2016 12:12 PM
  15. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Expect to be buying another phone if you want all of what "redstone" will offer. I can guarantee you that. Just sayin!
    Is the glass half-empty or half-full? It's a matter of perspective really. You aren't saying anything that is untrue or not known to informed observers, yet it need not be an imperative.

    I passed on the 950 and 950 XL because what the new hardware offered (Hello/Continuum) just wasn't compelling for my use scenario. My 1520 was judged by myself to be sufficient for now. It has pleased me mightily since August of 2014 and continues to do so now on W10M Official.

    From my perspective I'm not feeling shortchanged or left out. The new features look cool. I'll likely get them one day and possibly a whole lot more in my next purchase at the flagship level, be it Redstone 2 dedicated hardware or later...

    The rush to embrace every new iteration is well known to cause urgency in some while others feel only appreciation from afar and a sense of patience.

    Neither side is more right or correct. They simply are. That's how human beings act. You can actually experience either from time to time. They are not absolutes even within one person. When Redstone 2 dedicated hardware emerges I may very well shift from patient waiting with my 1520 to a sense of urgency that moves me back into the new device market.

    Your point is one of personal perspective that is mutable. It isn't an absolute that must be true in all decision trees.
    05-10-2016 12:17 PM
  16. loribinca's Avatar
    Burned three times by Microsoft - never again

    Nokia Lumia 900 - "sorry no windows phone 8 for you .. "
    Surface RT - 'Yeah, our bad, we're killing this platform'
    Lumia 1020 - "Yeah, remember when we promised that *all* Lumia's were getting the official windows 10 upgrade..."

    It's going to take something special to regain my trust - I'm not holding my breath.
    05-10-2016 03:37 PM
  17. loribinca's Avatar
    So you want to say that Surface Book and Surface Pro 4 suck aswell?
    The did until they finally fixed issues that should not have been there to begin with.
    MSFTisMIA and xandros9 like this.
    05-10-2016 03:39 PM
  18. Steve Adams's Avatar
    I am 90 percent happy with my 1020 on w10 242 as well.....but I need a dual sim phone for work. Hence...the 950 xl is the phone to get. And its one of the few that does LTE on both sims.
    05-10-2016 04:32 PM
  19. pankaj981's Avatar
    [NOTE]Moving this to Off-topic Lounge[/NOTE]
    05-10-2016 05:48 PM
  20. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Having used some form of Windows mobile/Phone from the 2003 SE, MSFT is a mixed bag.

    On the one hand, I give them credit for trying to find what works. But on the other hand, mobile has been blown up and reset so many times you really cannot blame the folks who have left for leaving.

    I've got a 950 XL. I upgraded to this from my M8 since while the hardware is still capable, if it doesn't have a MSFT/Nokia logo in front you're likely to get kicked to the curb faster. Audio for my needs is better on the M8, but who cares outside of me, right?

    There are certain little things convenience wise that's important to me now, and that's why as a dual user Android is my daily driver. I still like the Windows OS, and what it does, it does well. But I'm on the fence. At least I have good hardware for now to follow the progress of the OS.

    G4 Approved
    Laura Knotek and Guytronic like this.
    05-10-2016 07:37 PM
  21. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    I am 90 percent happy with my 1020 on w10 242 as well.....but I need a dual sim phone for work. Hence...the 950 xl is the phone to get. And its one of the few that does LTE on both sims.
    And the camera on the 950XL has a really, really good camera.


    Update: I have been made aware of the fact that my comment above contains an error, but I'm leaving it in there for Guytronic. ;)
    Last edited by Scienceguy Labs; 05-10-2016 at 08:13 PM.
    Laura Knotek and Guytronic like this.
    05-10-2016 07:54 PM
  22. Guytronic's Avatar
    And the camera...
    The camera has another camera in there?


    Sowwy...bad joke... :(
    05-10-2016 07:55 PM
  23. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    The camera has another camera in there?


    Sowwy...bad joke... :(
    Yes. My 950XL's camera has another camera within. All of the new Android dual camera setups are copying my XL's design. Also, my 950XL has a 950 inside of it. I'm testing out a new dual phone design for MS. I'm on the Insider Insider program. ;) ha ha
    05-10-2016 08:11 PM
  24. raycpl's Avatar
    I'm testing out a new dual phone design for MS. I'm on the Insider Insider program. ;) ha ha
    Does it have triple SIM ??.. dual SIMs is just so 2015 :-)
    Laura Knotek and Guytronic like this.
    05-10-2016 08:24 PM
  25. Guytronic's Avatar
    Update: I have been made aware of the fact that my comment above contains an error, but I'm leaving it in there for Guytronic. ;)
    You did that on porpoise just like I would have done :)
    Last edited by Guytronic; 05-10-2016 at 08:26 PM. Reason: I hardly ever make misteeks...
    05-10-2016 08:25 PM
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