Apollo coming to all (1G/2G) Windows Phones!

[anon(5325135)]

Windows Phones (1st Gen/2nd Gen) *should* all be upgradable to Apollo.

Apollo should arrive to all current gen devices. Fragmentation will be caused, which is what Steven Elop (Nokia) and Steve Ballmer (Microsoft) said they would go out of their way to prevent. Mango apps will work on Apollo, so no, they aren't transitioning to a new OS. WP8 = WP7 with more features. Update just like NoDo to Mango. So why do people worry over Mango to Apollo? Change of whole number? Really? Sorry, they aren't going over Windows Mobile's graveyard.

iOS 5 = iOS 4 with more features = iOS 3 with more features.
Same with Android.

They won't be going a different route. That was in the past..


There is no official source to they will be upgradable/not upgradable by Microsoft or anyone else. Nobody whatsoever. But I'm not saying they won't be upgradable. The few keypoints below should reflect that all current Windows Phones will be upgradable.

Apollo For All Windows Phones

Besides, Microsoft and Nokia are trying to have Windows Phone to not carry fragmentation.

Stephen Elop wants no Windows Phone fragmentation.


If the 1st and 2nd gen devices don't receive the Apollo update, then fragmentation will be caused. They will definitely not go down this road.

And finally, Mango apps will run on Apollo.

Windows Phone Tango1, Tango 2 and Apollo spotted in a job listing, voice integration for email coming in Apollo

Hopefully, this clears a few minds. Don't fear 2nd gen devices!

 

[mparker]

There is no official source to they will be upgradable/not upgradable by Microsoft or anyone else.

This is the key sentence in your post.

Fragmentation is unavoidable as a platform matures. Android is frequently bashed for its fragmentation problem, but really the problem with Android isn't that there are multiple versions out there, or older handsets that can't be upgraded to the newer OS's. The reason fragmentation is such a problem on Android is that there are Android phones currently being sold with versions that were obsolete three years ago. The current version of Android is 4.0.2. There are phones being sold today with version 1.7!!!!!

If *none* of the Gen 1 are upgradable to Apollo then WP still won't have the level of fragmentation problem that Android has. Even if Microsoft dual-tracks WP into WP7/Tango for the budget asian market and WP8/Apollo for the high-end market then WP still won't have the fragmentation problem that Android has.

 

[anon(5325135)]

I don't see why they would plan to throw WP7 away. They already carry little market share. Starting a new OS is just starting fresh. I know for sure they won't go down Windows Mobile's graveyard again.

That quote wasn't trying to point to yes or no. I was stating that there isn't an official source, but that there are still fingers pointing giving hints that current Gen phones will be upgradable.

People are freaking out only from the transition of the number. 7 to 8. -.-

Fixed post.


Posted from my Samsung Focus Windows Phone.

 

[canesfan625]

we already have a thread for this, mango apps running on apollo means nothing for updates to 1st gen.

 

[Seketh]

... the problem with Android isn't that there are multiple versions out there, or older handsets that can't be upgraded to the newer OS's.

Uh, that's exactly the problem with Android fragmentation, not the fact that older sets are coming out with old versions. If those older handsets were simply updated to the latest version, even with some limitations, there wouldn't be such severe fragmentation.

It's still early to see how the inevitable fragmentation of Windows Phone will develop, but Microsoft is betting on an update system similar to iPhone, but without compromising the performance of older headsets

And that fragmentation will never be anything even remotely similar to Android.

 

[canesfan625]

or older handsets that can't be upgraded to the newer OS's.

This is almost irrelevant. You could have a cell phone with 8 cores and 20 gigs of ram and it still wouldn't matter. Its a proven fact that vendors will lie to your e-face about Android updates *cough* Samsung *cough* and tell you that they cant update it because of "hardware requirements"

 

[selfcreation]

fragmentation = 100% to do with the core coding of the OS.

OEM/RTM add some special code that they dont require to share(like SENS on htc , or motoblure on Motorola's ( and they dint ) so when goggle comes out with a new update
its not compatible with does features hence causing fragmentation.

2 types of open source regulated by Google: Google codes need to be shared. OEM/RTM codes do not! that's the problem. ( cant give away all their secrets )

android central have a VERY nice article about this! for does of you that are interested you should look it up, it explains ALLOT!

also OEM/RTM have ZERO access to core programing on WP ( except for NOKIA , but they said they wouldn't play with it )

here is the open source thing: http://www.androidcentral.com/what-open-source-android-z

 

[mparker]

Uh, that's exactly the problem with Android fragmentation, not the fact that older sets are coming out with old versions. If those older handsets were simply updated to the latest version, even with some limitations, there wouldn't be such severe fragmentation.

Nope, it is not really a problem for a developer if there are multiple versions of an OS out there, as long as he can be assured that there are a limited number of them, and those older versions will disappear over some reasonable time frame. This can't happen if manufacturers and carriers keep selling obsolete versions to new customers.

Nobody ever whines about Windows being fragmented, at least not since XP replaced Windows ME. Even though there are lots of XP systems out there, there aren't any new XP systems being sold anymore, so nowadays it's possible for a developer to simply ignore the existence of XP and target the Vista APIs.

Android is in the situation that Windows would be in if Dell and Gateway were still selling Windows 95 systems. Except worse, because the handset manufacturers and carriers insist on doing their own versions of the OS with their own bugs and compatibility issues.

Hypothetically, if no Android handset were ever upgraded, but each new handset sold came with the latest version of Android, then although there would be fragmentation it would be very managable; by now nearly all handsets still under contract would be running Gingerbread, and new development projects could target Ice Cream Sandwich without a second's hesitation.

If Apollo doesn't come to the older WP7 devices then yes there will be fragmentation. But that fragmentation will exist *anyway*, unless you believe that WP8 will be coming to these little 256MB Tango devices as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens to Tango after WP8 comes out. I suspect we're heading to a fragmented WP world whether we like it or not.

 

[canesfan625]

Nope, it is not really a problem for a developer if there are multiple versions of an OS out there, as long as he can be assured that there are a limited number of them, and those older versions will disappear over some reasonable time frame. This can't happen if manufacturers and carriers keep selling obsolete versions to new customers.

Nobody ever whines about Windows being fragmented, at least not since XP replaced Windows ME. Even though there are lots of XP systems out there, there aren't any new XP systems being sold anymore, so nowadays it's possible for a developer to simply ignore the existence of XP and target the Vista APIs.

Android is in the situation that Windows would be in if Dell and Gateway were still selling Windows 95 systems. Except worse, because the handset manufacturers and carriers insist on doing their own versions of the OS with their own bugs and compatibility issues.

Hypothetically, if no Android handset were ever upgraded, but each new handset sold came with the latest version of Android, then although there would be fragmentation it would be very managable; by now nearly all handsets still under contract would be running Gingerbread, and new development projects could target Ice Cream Sandwich without a second's hesitation.

If Apollo doesn't come to the older WP7 devices then yes there will be fragmentation. But that fragmentation will exist *anyway*, unless you believe that WP8 will be coming to these little 256MB Tango devices as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens to Tango after WP8 comes out. I suspect we're heading to a fragmented WP world whether we like it or not.

Thats the problem though. We cant just download .net or whatever we are missing from one of the like 8 levels of APIs for Android. Developer interest is dropping because of the problem too. Like 3 out of 5 devices still use a version from 2010. I guess the fear is due to the speed though.. Look how many API levels there are since 2008 and the updates are extremely lacking. Imagine being an android dev right now. You have access to the glory of ICS but you are still developing for froyo and gingerbread

 

[mparker]

Thats the problem though. We cant just download .net or whatever we are missing from one of the like 8 levels of APIs for Android. Developer interest is dropping because of the problem too. Like 3 out of 5 devices still use a version from 2010. I guess the fear is due to the speed though.. Look how many API levels there are since 2008 and the updates are extremely lacking. Imagine being an android dev right now. You have access to the glory of ICS but you are still developing for froyo and gingerbread

But that's because manufacturers and carriers are still selling eclair, froyo, and gingerbread handsets even today. If they stopped selling handsets with obsolete versions of the OS, and stopped customizing the OS the way they do, then the fragmentation problem would be a non-issue, even if handsets weren't upgraded, because hardware obsolescence would solve that problem over the course of a year or two.

Past a certain point it's unrealistic to expect old handsets to be upgradable to the new OS. In order to make this happen you'd have to gimp the new OS and slow down advancement, giving your competitors a chance to leapfrog you. The question is where that point occurs. The problem is that the faster you're trying to move, the more of a strain it is to maintain backward compatibility. Apple stranded millions of their customers when they switched to OSX, and stranded millions more when they switched to X86, and millions more when they dropped Carbon and Rosetta. But brutally sacrificing upgradability was important in allowing OSX to advance as quickly as it did.

When Microsoft needed to move aggressively with WP7 they completely abandoned compatibility with the Windows Mobile devices. They need to move aggressively with Win8/WP8. If this means that they have to leave those million Foci and Quanta on WP7.5 then they may well do it, because the alternative (an uncompetitive WP8) is unacceptably risky.

 

[canesfan625]

But that's because manufacturers and carriers are still selling eclair, froyo, and gingerbread handsets even today. If they stopped selling handsets with obsolete versions of the OS, and stopped customizing the OS the way they do, then the fragmentation problem would be a non-issue, even if handsets weren't upgraded, because hardware obsolescence would solve that problem over the course of a year or two.

Past a certain point it's unrealistic to expect old handsets to be upgradable to the new OS. In order to make this happen you'd have to gimp the new OS and slow down advancement, giving your competitors a chance to leapfrog you. The question is where that point occurs. The problem is that the faster you're trying to move, the more of a strain it is to maintain backward compatibility. Apple stranded millions of their customers when they switched to OSX, and stranded millions more when they switched to X86, and millions more when they dropped Carbon and Rosetta. But brutally sacrificing upgradability was important in allowing OSX to advance as quickly as it did.

When Microsoft needed to move aggressively with WP7 they completely abandoned compatibility with the Windows Mobile devices. They need to move aggressively with Win8/WP8. If this means that they have to leave those million Foci and Quanta on WP7.5 then they may well do it, because the alternative (an uncompetitive WP8) is unacceptably risky.

I don't expect them to update it forever, obviously, but unlike Android I expect the phone to be supported through its life. Not six months and kicked out the door. For anyone that wants to see the problem in its glory go take a looky at the Galaxy S. Not getting ICS because of "hardware limitations" they say. What limitations would that be? Pretty much has the same hardware as the Galaxy Nexus.

 

[selfcreation]

Nothing is certain in life except death and taxes.

lol , lets just hope we all get what we want.

 

[Seketh]

Nope, it is not really a problem for a developer if there are multiple versions of an OS out there, as long as he can be assured that there are a limited number of them, and those older versions will disappear over some reasonable time frame. This can't happen if manufacturers and carriers keep selling obsolete versions to new customers.

Nobody ever whines about Windows being fragmented, at least not since XP replaced Windows ME. Even though there are lots of XP systems out there, there aren't any new XP systems being sold anymore, so nowadays it's possible for a developer to simply ignore the existence of XP and target the Vista APIs.

Android is in the situation that Windows would be in if Dell and Gateway were still selling Windows 95 systems. Except worse, because the handset manufacturers and carriers insist on doing their own versions of the OS with their own bugs and compatibility issues.

Hypothetically, if no Android handset were ever upgraded, but each new handset sold came with the latest version of Android, then although there would be fragmentation it would be very managable; by now nearly all handsets still under contract would be running Gingerbread, and new development projects could target Ice Cream Sandwich without a second's hesitation.

If Apollo doesn't come to the older WP7 devices then yes there will be fragmentation. But that fragmentation will exist *anyway*, unless you believe that WP8 will be coming to these little 256MB Tango devices as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens to Tango after WP8 comes out. I suspect we're heading to a fragmented WP world whether we like it or not.

Here's where your logic fails: You can still run an XP (heck, even a Windows 95) application in Windows 8. Sure, you *might* have to use compatibility mode, but it works!

Apollo is coming to both 1G devices and Tango devices. Apollo in Tango devices will simply have limitations, probably similar to the ones that already exist, there's no reason why they won't also be updated to Apollo.

When Microsoft needed to move aggressively with WP7 they completely abandoned compatibility with the Windows Mobile devices. They need to move aggressively with Win8/WP8. If this means that they have to leave those million Foci and Quanta on WP7.5 then they may well do it, because the alternative (an uncompetitive WP8) is unacceptably risky.

No, the risky move would be to not update WP7 devices to WP8.

Can you imagine the community rage and press nightmare if the Lumia 900, the Nokia flagship device, didn't get the update to Windows Phone 8? It would mean the death of WP right there.

And if the Lumia 900 gets Apollo, there's absolutely no reason why other WP won't get it, after all, it's Microsoft pushing the updates, not the manufacturers, like in Android.

 

[mparker]

I don't expect them to update it forever, obviously, but unlike Android I expect the phone to be supported through its life. Not six months and kicked out the door.

By the time WP8 ships the Gen 1 handsets will be 2 years old, and the early adopters like myself will be at the end of our contracts and ready for renewal and a shiny new Apollo handset. Sounds like a good time to leave those Gen 1 machines behind. Of the Gen 2 handsets the Lumia 900 is the one I most expect to see upgraded, simply because it's the last of them and the most likely to have taken Apollo's requirements into account.

For anyone that wants to see the problem in its glory go take a looky at the Galaxy S. Not getting ICS because of "hardware limitations" they say. What limitations would that be? Pretty much has the same hardware as the Galaxy Nexus.

Actually it's the Galaxy S2 that is similar to the Galaxy Nexus. ICS (Android 4.0) was developed on the Galaxy Nexus, and the Galaxy S2 *is* getting ICS (Samsung Outs Galaxy S II ICS Guide For Customers).

The Galaxy S that you mentioned is similar to the Nexus S, which was the developer machine for the previous phone version of Android (Gingerbread/Android 2.3). The Nexus S is getting ICS but Samsung has announced that the Galaxy S will not be getting it. But this is a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison - Galaxy S isn't really running the same operating system as the Nexus S; it's running Samsung TouchWiz, which while based on Android is heavily enhanced and needs much more resources than the version of Android it's based on. Bone stock ICS will run on the Nexus S, but only just. The combination of TouchWiz version + ICS is simply too much for that hardware.

Interestingly, the phone that was used for Froyo (Android 2.2) development, the Nexus One, will not be getting ICS from Google or anybody else. It got one major update a year after its release (from 2.2 to 2.3), then was left behind the next year when 4.0 came out. This is roughly what I expect from WP7 - the original windows phones shipped with 7.0, got 7.5 a year later, and a year after that are abandoned by WP8. Maybe Microsoft will do better, maybe the Gen 1 devices will run WP8. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if they don't, and even less surprised if AT&T blocks any WP8 update that Microsoft does release for those old handsets, because AT&T wants those 2-yr upgrades.

 

[mparker]

Here's where your logic fails: You can still run an XP (heck, even a Windows 95) application in Windows 8. Sure, you *might* have to use compatibility mode, but it works!

How is that a logic fail? I've said nothing about WP7 apps not running in WP8; I'm talking about old WP7 hardware running WP8. Try running Windows 8 on an 64MB Pentium 3 with a 20GB hard drive, and see how far you get.

Can you imagine the community rage and press nightmare if the Lumia 900, the Nokia flagship device, didn't get the update to Windows Phone 8? It would mean the death of WP right there.

Of all the WP7.x handsets, the Lumia 900 is the one I most expect to see Apollo in something resembling its full glory. But that's because WP8 was farther along in while the 900 was being developed, and because Nokia has a closer relationship with Microsoft than HTC or Samsung. They should have known exactly what would be needed for Apollo while they were developing the 900. If it can't run WP8 and run it well then people have a reason to scream bloody murder.

And if the Lumia 900 gets Apollo, there's absolutely no reason why other WP won't get it, after all, it's Microsoft pushing the updates, not the manufacturers, like in Android.

Yeah? Why does my Focus still have the disappearing keyboard problem then? If AT&T decides they'd rather not approve WP8 for those gen 1 devices, that they'd rather sell those customers a new 2-yr contract and a shiny new Lumia 1000 or Galaxy Focus or whatever, then those Gen 1 machines will never run WP8. And if AT&T/Verizon/Sprint have already told Microsoft that they will not be upgrading those old handsets then why would Microsoft even bother working on it? If AT&T won't push out the important bug fixes that Microsoft has released these last 6 months, why do you think they'd push out something as major and as revenue-reducing as WP8.

You claim that the carriers are "contractually obligated to release major updates". I'll believe that when I see the contracts. There's always escape clauses and time limits and weasel words.

 

[canesfan625]

By the time WP8 ships the Gen 1 handsets will be 2 years old, and the early adopters like myself will be at the end of our contracts and ready for renewal and a shiny new Apollo handset. Sounds like a good time to leave those Gen 1 machines behind. Of the Gen 2 handsets the Lumia 900 is the one I most expect to see upgraded, simply because it's the last of them and the most likely to have taken Apollo's requirements into account.




Actually it's the Galaxy S2 that is similar to the Galaxy Nexus. ICS (Android 4.0) was developed on the Galaxy Nexus, and the Galaxy S2 *is* getting ICS (Samsung Outs Galaxy S II ICS Guide For Customers).

The Galaxy S that you mentioned is similar to the Nexus S, which was the developer machine for the previous phone version of Android (Gingerbread/Android 2.3). The Nexus S is getting ICS but Samsung has announced that the Galaxy S will not be getting it. But this is a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison - Galaxy S isn't really running the same operating system as the Nexus S; it's running Samsung TouchWiz, which while based on Android is heavily enhanced and needs much more resources than the version of Android it's based on. Bone stock ICS will run on the Nexus S, but only just. The combination of TouchWiz version + ICS is simply too much for that hardware.

Interestingly, the phone that was used for Froyo (Android 2.2) development, the Nexus One, will not be getting ICS from Google or anybody else. It got one major update a year after its release (from 2.2 to 2.3), then was left behind the next year when 4.0 came out. This is roughly what I expect from WP7 - the original windows phones shipped with 7.0, got 7.5 a year later, and a year after that are abandoned by WP8. Maybe Microsoft will do better, maybe the Gen 1 devices will run WP8. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if they don't, and even less surprised if AT&T blocks any WP8 update that Microsoft does release for those old handsets, because AT&T wants those 2-yr upgrades.

There is absolutely no technical reason that the Galaxy S can't run ICS. Who cares about touchwiz? Probably not a single one of the 10 million people that got screwed. So now they have to do what Android excels at. Fragmentation through custom ROMS which ironically run better than the official one.

-EDIT- haha almost forgot about that "value pack" they were planning on bringing. what a joke

 

[mparker]

There is absolutely no technical reason that the Galaxy S can't run ICS. Who cares about touchwiz? Probably not a single one of the 10 million people that got screwed. So now they have to do what Android excels at. Fragmentation through custom ROMS which ironically run better than the official one.

Well, Samsung cares about touchwiz, of course, and believe that it gives them a competitive advantage. Given their position in the Android market I'm willing to consider the possibility that they might be right about this. Personally I can't stand TouchWiz. But they've sold a metric cr*pton of phones with it. Personally I can't stand iOS either, so my preferences clearly don't track the broader market. It's also quite likely that their customers would notice the missing features if their phones were upgraded to a touchwiz-less ICS. And it seems quite likely that a series of class-action lawsuits would follow shortly afterwards.

I agree with you that there is no technical reason the Galaxy S can't run stock ICS Android - there was an existence proof of that shortly after AOSP was updated with the ICS source. But stock Android is not the OS that Samsung sold their customers with those phones, they sold them Touchwiz.

Yes, this sort of gimcrackery is a major reason for the fragmentation in Android. It was probably inevitable given how awful Android was in the early days. ICS is really the first version that competes with iOS and WP7 on aesthetics and consistency, and there's some chance that the vendors will gradually phase out their heavy-handed customization. HTC has announced that their newer versions of Sense will be much lighter, though they aren't phasing it out altogether, and Google has begun trying to discourage excessive customization as well.

I'm glad that Nokia has so far resisted customization in the WP OS, because *that* is the sort of fragmentation that is dangerous - a fragmentation in *shipping* systems, not the natural fragmentation that occurs as older hardware is abandoned and stuck on old OS versions. Fragmenting the currently shipping systems causes long-term ongoing headaches because there will never be a single codebase the developer can target, never just a handful of systems to test on. Fragmentation caused by obsolescence is fairly easy to manage, if a developer is concerned about maximum market share he can write his code for the API's that came out one or two versions back.

I'm curious how the low-cost Tango handsets will be handled when WP8 comes out, if they'll be upgraded to some flavor of WP8 or if they'll be stuck on a separate WP7 track. We'll see. At one time Windows NT ran well on machines with 4MB RAM and 20MB hard drives, so theoretically they can get WP8 pared down to where 256MB machines can run it.

 

[Seketh]

How is that a logic fail? I've said nothing about WP7 apps not running in WP8; I'm talking about old WP7 hardware running WP8. Try running Windows 8 on an 64MB Pentium 3 with a 20GB hard drive, and see how far you get.

Your logic fails yet again, Windows 8 actually runs on 64MB!

Windows 8 Runs on 64MB and 128 MB RAM | Windows 8 Beta

1G WP7 handsets have 512MB, the same as 2G WP7. System requirements are definitely not an argument against the Apollo update on 1G handsets.

Of all the WP7.x handsets, the Lumia 900 is the one I most expect to see Apollo in something resembling its full glory. But that's because WP8 was farther along in while the 900 was being developed, and because Nokia has a closer relationship with Microsoft than HTC or Samsung. They should have known exactly what would be needed for Apollo while they were developing the 900. If it can't run WP8 and run it well then people have a reason to scream bloody murder.

And yet there is no hardware differentiation from the Lumia 900 to the other handsets, it still runs the same Snapdragon chipset.

If other handsets have exactly the same chipset, why wouldn't they be able to run Apollo? And if Windows 8 can run on 64MB, why wouldn't Apollo run on the 256MB of Tango handsets?

Yeah? Why does my Focus still have the disappearing keyboard problem then? If AT&T decides they'd rather not approve WP8 for those gen 1 devices, that they'd rather sell those customers a new 2-yr contract and a shiny new Lumia 1000 or Galaxy Focus or whatever, then those Gen 1 machines will never run WP8. And if AT&T/Verizon/Sprint have already told Microsoft that they will not be upgrading those old handsets then why would Microsoft even bother working on it? If AT&T won't push out the important bug fixes that Microsoft has released these last 6 months, why do you think they'd push out something as major and as revenue-reducing as WP8.

You claim that the carriers are "contractually obligated to release major updates". I'll believe that when I see the contracts. There's always escape clauses and time limits and weasel words.

As you said, carriers are obligated to release major updates, and AT&T just decided to skip the hotfix. It's revolting, but that's just AT&T being a crappy carrier.

My personal opinion is that Microsoft compromised the hotfixes to guarantee that carriers like AT&T would release major updates, it makes perfect sense.

 

[anon(5325135)]

WP8 is simply more features than WP7.5. That's all. A major release for Windows Phone pretty much does not redefine the core OS. That's why I expect all phones to be updated. It's another Mango. With features that did not appear in Mango..

Posted from my Samsung Focus Windows Phone.

 

[canesfan625]

WP8 is simply more features than WP7.5. That's all. A major release for Windows Phone pretty much does not redefine the core OS. That's why I expect all phones to be updated. It's another Mango. With features that did not appear in Mango..

Posted from my Samsung Focus Windows Phone.

not sure if serious...