Kernel Question

[mase123987]

I've heard lots of people on these forums say something like "Current phones just don't have enough power to run the new Kernel/OS well." It seems a lot of these people are the same ones that tell others to stop spreading misinformation. While it might be true, has that actually been said by a person who truly knows?

 

[selfcreation]

thats a good questing , i hope a DEV can answer this ( looking at you JAY or Ralph ) hehe

but honestly I think it has to do with the update process

but again that's just a thought , the phone can handle MOST of WP8 feature im sure... the new hardware is not a HUGE thing aside from the dual-core but even at that single core Androids can run the same Function ( more or less) as most Dual-cores phones....

witch bring me back to thinking it has to do with the Update process....cause why would they give us ONLY a new UI look on 7.8 ..... when wp8 is getting HUNDRED of features that could in theory run on WP7.5 phones...

 

[mparker]

While it might be true, has that actually been said by a person who truly knows?

Short of Microsoft porting it to a 1st or 2nd gen device, nobody really knows. And AFAIK Microsoft hasn't done that.

The big issue with WP8 is device drivers. Without manufacturer support (not just handset manufacturer but component manufacturer) those device drivers won't get written, and without those drivers WP8 cannot function on a WP7 device. And since the manufacturers would have to write, debug, and support these drivers "for free" they're not particularly interested.

witch bring me back to thinking it has to do with the Update process....cause why would they give us ONLY a new UI look on 7.8 ..... when wp8 is getting HUNDRED of features that could in theory run on WP7.5 phones...

The update process could well be related. Part of the difference is the new bootloader that is needed by Win8/WP8, and I'm sure it's an "interesting" challenge switching from the old one to the new one. And there's some chance that the old hardware is missing some feature needed by the new bootloader (some particular level of encryption support or something). And that hypothetical new bootloader would have to be written by the handset manufacturer who isn't going to see a return on that investment and is thus understandably reluctant.

 

[mase123987]

Short of Microsoft porting it to a 1st or 2nd gen device, nobody really knows. And AFAIK Microsoft hasn't done that.

The big issue with WP8 is device drivers. Without manufacturer support (not just handset manufacturer but component manufacturer) those device drivers won't get written, and without those drivers WP8 cannot function on a WP7 device. And since the manufacturers would have to write, debug, and support these drivers "for free" they're not particularly interested.




The update process could well be related. Part of the difference is the new bootloader that is needed by Win8/WP8, and I'm sure it's an "interesting" challenge switching from the old one to the new one. And there's some chance that the old hardware is missing some feature needed by the new bootloader (some particular level of encryption support or something). And that hypothetical new bootloader would have to be written by the handset manufacturer who isn't going to see a return on that investment and is thus understandably reluctant.

If the reason for not updating phones with WP8 is some type of issue regarding hardware that won't support it in some fashion, wouldn't it benefit Microsoft big time to just come out and say it? A simple explanation can go a very long ways to making people feel better about the situation.

 

[mparker]

If the reason for not updating phones with WP8 is some type of issue regarding hardware that won't support it in some fashion, wouldn't it benefit Microsoft big time to just come out and say it? A simple explanation can go a very long ways to making people feel better about the situation.

It's rarely as simple as "the hardware won't support it". The hardware may not support it at all, the hardware may partially support it and the rest can be faked in the device drivers, or the hardware may fully support it but the manufacturers aren't interested in spending time and money to support hardware that they will never make again, to write expensive and complicated software that they can't recoup, and to risk angering customers with buggy drivers. It's almost certainly uneconomical, possibly even *really* uneconomical.

There is a cost to a p*ssed-off customer base, but that cost is not infinite, the current WP7 customer base is not large, and there is no guarantee that we would actually be happier with WP8 on these phones. The Win8/WP8 rollout is a big deal, one to which both Microsoft and the manufacturers must devote as much attention as the can possibly muster.

It's also important to remember that it's possible (even likely) that were WP8 to be made available on our handsets that we would be much more angry than we are now. Even assuming that the necessary device drivers and bootloaders could be waved into existence, there's no guarantee that they would be reliable. Device drivers are notoriously difficult to get right - "right" for a device driver means absolutely bug-free. Disappearing keyboards and dropping wifi could well be the least of our problems. If the current customers upgrade their handsets to WP8 and discover that they keep dropping wifi connections or phone conversations, or if the phone spontaneously reboots several times a day, or the batteries start catching on fire, or the battery life is measured in hours instead of days, then they will be much more unhappy than if they were simply stuck with perfectly functional albeit somewhat limited WP7.8. This would be much worse for us and for Microsoft. Worse for us because we're left with crippled phones which manufacturers are rapidly losing interest in supporting, and worse for Microsoft because the bad press hits just as WP8 and Win8 are rolling out and the ad campaigns are ramping up. Better to take the PR hit now, make sure their existing customers have the best experience they can, and focus on Win8 and WP8.

Edit: Examples of this sort of upgrade-induced bugginess are the iphone 3gs problems with the iOS 4.0 upgrade (massive performance issues rendering the phone essentially unusable until iOS 4.2), and the Nexus 1 problems with the Android 2.3 upgrade (many phones wouldn't turn the speaker on during a phone call rendering them useless as phones until 2.3.5 came out).

 

[Dormage]

None of the reasons provided in this thread are the ones that realy made M$ back off from supporting WP8 for gen 1.
I do not know how the Kernel is build since its M$ and therefore closed source but I'm still sure that the power the Kernel it self uses is nothing compared to apps.
The Kernel could very well run on 1 gen devices.

In regard to the driver problem It should be noted that the rewrite of the drivers might not be nessesary at all, still depends on the Kernel and we cannot evaluate that because we lack thesource code.
If drivers need major rewrites and not just a few fixes then the it still doesn't pose a huge problem since there is such a small number of WP7 devices in the whole world.
If not all manufactures then at least Nokia could write the damn drivers for a less then a year old device. If this is M$ excuse then its a very poor one !

The performance issue might be the reason, but not because of the Kernel but because of the new features it provides. Apps using those features might work slow whtch would result in poor user experience.
WP is known for its fluidness and that could ruin the reputation of the platform.

As for the updating process if such was to be. I could not a imagine way for an automatic upgrade of the Kernel ... can any1 see how this could be done?
Don't think so...

 

[mparker]

In regard to the driver problem It should be noted that the rewrite of the drivers might not be nessesary at all, still depends on the Kernel and we cannot evaluate that because we lack the source code.

We have a pretty good idea of the changes involved. The device driver architectures for both WinCE and Win8 are published by Microsoft, and example drivers are provided in the Windows CE development kit and Win8 DDK (Driver Development Kit). It's a major rewrite for any non-trivial piece of hardware (for trivial hardware it's merely a normal rewrite).

As for the updating process if such was to be. I could not a imagine way for an automatic upgrade of the Kernel ... can any1 see how this could be done?
Don't think so...

Updating the kernel isn't particularly difficult. It's similar to the way the Windows kernel is upgraded on the desktop. On the desktop the new version is stored in a special directory, and on the next reboot the bootloader detects it and copies it into the regular directory, then boots from that regular directory. This is why some windows updates and service packs require a reboot.

On the phone the new version of the kernel is downloaded to the flash drive in a special directory, and on the next boot the bootloader flashes it into the regular directory on the system flash drive, then boots from that drive and directory. The WP7 kernel has been updated with several of the WP7 updates; this is one of the reasons that the phone reboots several times during the update process.

 

[Dormage]

We have a pretty good idea of the changes involved. The device driver architectures for both WinCE and Win8 are published by Microsoft, and example drivers are provided in the Windows CE development kit and Win8 DDK (Driver Development Kit). It's a rewrite for any non-trivial piece of hardware.

Didn't know that, thanks for the info.
Still I think those driver rewrites cannot effect the sales of a perfectly new device.
And if they do then Nokia deserves to close its doors.