WP8 needs Musicians!

[CommonBlob]

Thanks for chiming in Blob!

Man, I hope there will be a workaround to the shared audio engine in WP8, WinRT or it means the platform is doomed for musicians. But isn't it something that could easily be checked by downloading the Win8 Release Preview and playing with it? Sorry if it sounds ignorant..

Click to view quoted image

yep, we could get the answers now. Although things could change before release. If i get a spare hour i might whip something up in winRT. However I'll be testing on a quad core i7. With an Emu sound card. Seems a little unfair when comparing to surface on ARM

 

[vp710]

yep, we could get the answers now. Although things could change before release. If i get a spare hour i might whip something up in winRT. However I'll be testing on a quad core i7. With an Emu sound card. Seems a little unfair when comparing to surface on ARM

:lol: Indeed. But it still would give you an idea how the audio processes are handled in WinRT, right? Thanks for helping us out!

 

[CommonBlob]

:lol: Indeed. But it still would give you an idea how the audio processes are handled in WinRT, right? Thanks for helping us out!

I'll look into it tomorrow and let you know.

 

[freestaterocker]

I think part of Apple's products appeal to the masses is that they are used by creative people, be it in design, music, video, etc. I hope MS gets this right...

Reminds me of that GS2 commercial taking potshots at people lining up outside the Apple Store for the new phone...

"I could never use a Samsung. I'm creative."

"Dude. You're a BARISTA."

ROFLMFAO

 

[ejb222]

This is why I love this forum!

 

[CommonBlob]

Ive set up a sample in Windows RT to test audio latency, initially I tried using MediaElement. However its clear that this is NOT any good for audio, its more for video and simple sounds.

So Im writing a sample using DirectX XAudio2. The plus side is this is DirectX and Native code. The downside is its an extra learning curve, might get something going if I get enough time in the next couple of hours though.

 

[CommonBlob]

Well, I cannot say this is a super accurate, but I have tested XAudio2 in Windows RT.

Now the caveats to testing:

* This is in debug mode, so in theory release mode should be a touch faster
* This is testing on an Intel I7 Laptop
* This does not include any special effects to the sample, it is just a sample getting played
* I am using SharpDX to interpret DirectX native C++ to c# (I such at C++)
* This is not using a touchscreen, there will always be a touchscreen latency and I cannot answer that question here as each one will probably be different
* I am only able to test timing when the code believes the sound is off to be played, there could be additional latency compared to what I get to my ears. I can tell you that I cannot hear anything between when I lift the mouse button and the note being played.

So simply, all I am doing is setting up my objects on load. Then I have a button that sets up a buffer and loads a soundstream into that buffer. So this is a pre-buffered audio sample.

Then another button submits the buffer and plays the sound.

The results:

Audio sample at 44100

Preparing the buffer: 60ms - 70ms
Submit and play: 5ms - 7ms

Audio sample at 22050

Preparing the buffer: 50ms - 60ms
Submit and play: 2ms - 4ms

To my ears, it seems pretty good, but I am not doing anything on the fly and this is also not touch screen.

 

[ejb222]

Thanks Blob! I appreciate your work. Is that good results? What about recording? Even the ability to plug in a digital condesor mic to my phone to record would be a helpful.

 

[vp710]

Thanks for the experiment Blob!

So the best you could get right now, for a full quality sample is 65ms, not counting input (touch) lag? I'd have to test it, but my experience with DAW's would lead me to believe it's pretty bad unfortunately. Still better than Android (and their 300+ms) but far behind iOS (below 10ms).

But if I understand correctly, the way latency is measured could mean it gives longer results than how it translates in real life, right?

Fingers crossed for WinRT.

 

[cckgz4]

I think part of Apple's products appeal to the masses is that they are used by creative people, be it in design, music, video, etc. I hope MS gets this right...

this is true

 

[CommonBlob]

Thanks for the experiment Blob!

So the best you could get right now, for a full quality sample is 65ms, not counting input (touch) lag? I'd have to test it, but my experience with DAW's would lead me to believe it's pretty bad unfortunately. Still better than Android (and their 300+ms) but far behind iOS (below 10ms).

But if I understand correctly, the way latency is measured could mean it gives longer results than how it translates in real life, right?

Fingers crossed for WinRT.

Kind of vp710

Its not as bad as that. Normally you would precache the wav sample into memory (its not large), so you can ignore most of that first 60-70ms as the lag is mainly caused by disk read.

Really what you have is:

Touch Lag + Buffer Lag + Audio Playback Lag = Button to your ears.

Now if you want it to be a decent audio engine, you will have to also add Effect Lag, now that's dependant on your code.

I think I could get something good at around 15ms or even better, all depends on how far the effects go. But that's only using my measurements, touchlag and to my ear lag is not included as I can't really measure that. It could be very minimal, but as we know touchscreen drivers will differ depending on manufacturer.

As good as IOS? Im not sure until I try.

If I can ramp up my current Windows Phone implementation and get it out there, I will have time to work on a Windows RT version of what will be called Metro Music Studio. Although im quite excited for Windows 8 and can't wait to design on large screens.
I was surprised how easy it was getting SharpDX and XAudio working, a testament to SharpDX and c# I guess!

 

[CommonBlob]

Thanks Blob! I appreciate your work. Is that good results? What about recording? Even the ability to plug in a digital condesor mic to my phone to record would be a helpful.

Its not bad results, its hard to get real meaning without being able to track latency in the "real world", but its better than I had expected.

Ive not tested recording yet, I will try and test this as well, although gauging how well this works will be trickier. I suspect I would need to play a song and tap a beat to it, then try and "feel" the latency. Thankfully I played Violin for 12 years, guitar for 5 and drums for 2, so I think im reasonably musical!

 

[vp710]

Kind of vp710

Its not as bad as that. Normally you would precache the wav sample into memory (its not large), so you can ignore most of that first 60-70ms as the lag is mainly caused by disk read.

Really what you have is:

Touch Lag + Buffer Lag + Audio Playback Lag = Button to your ears.

Now if you want it to be a decent audio engine, you will have to also add Effect Lag, now that's dependant on your code.

I think I could get something good at around 15ms or even better, all depends on how far the effects go. But that's only using my measurements, touchlag and to my ear lag is not included as I can't really measure that. It could be very minimal, but as we know touchscreen drivers will differ depending on manufacturer.

As good as IOS? Im not sure until I try.

If I can ramp up my current Windows Phone implementation and get it out there, I will have time to work on a Windows RT version of what will be called Metro Music Studio. Although im quite excited for Windows 8 and can't wait to design on large screens.
I was surprised how easy it was getting SharpDX and XAudio working, a testament to SharpDX and c# I guess!

Wow, that's great news!!! 15ms would be usable, definitely. Blob, I'm so excited about this experiment. Can't wait to see how it translates on, say, a Surface!

 

[vp710]

AAHH! Damn Board Express not posting my stuff.

Re recording: if you can multi-track, the easiest way to check for latency is to play an audio click track on track #1 and record it on track #2. Then it's really easy to compare, even with you eyes if you're in a DAW.

But I don't think recording is as critical as input latency as you can always use latency compensation to nudge the recorded tracks in place automatically but playing live instruments with lag is next to impossible.

Thanks again Blob for giving us eager folks answers.

 

[ejb222]

If there was a way to guestimate, you think anymore developers are working on this? Anyway to get more people on this? You think someone on this site could do a write up to get more attention? I think this is a rather crucial area that's been largely overlooked and thought that this could be a great niche...but as of right now Apple has no competition and I know a lot of musicians that are Apple exclusive because of this. I mean we can't be the only people that are concerned or have looked into this right????

 

[vp710]

There really is not much that's been done on the subject. I started a thread on xda and only one person has responded so far. Then there's the article i linked to in previous posts and a few things here and there but that's about it. I don't know if it's because people don't know or don't care, or if devs are waiting for the final release of win8. I'm sure it will be hard to get quality metro music apps because most companies and devs cater to the big apple userbase. I'd love to see an in-depth article on wpc though.

Sent from my Lumia 710 using Board Express

 

[jdevenberg]

My 2 cents.
Creative types prefer Apple products 90% of the time. Even if Windows Phone were the superior platform for recording on the go, that isn't going to sway them as it doesn't have the "cool" factor that an Apple product has. WP8 is targeted squarely at two groups of people: Corporate and average consumers. Gamers are also target, but to a lesser degree. With its grid of square tiles, with their single solid color on a solid background, and focus on delivering information, WP very much appeals to left brain types who want organization and efficiency. In short, it puts function before form. I love how Windows Phone looks, but I am most certainly left brained, loving Science, math, and diving deep into technology (I can't remember the last time I had a computer running only a single OS). Microsoft shows off production applications, highlighting Office and its SharePoint capabilities. iOS (and Android, though to a lesser degree), put form before function. Developers can create very beautiful, artistic icons, but they don't tell you anything. It is full of textures that serve to beautify, but distract from getting at the info you want. You can choose a beautiful background to always see on your home screen, but it can make reading your icons more difficult. All of these things appeal to right brained, creative type peoples (artists, musicians, etc.) Apple likes to show off advanced apps like iMovie and Garage band. For this reason, I don't think you will ever have music apps on Windows Phone that are up to par with the iOS options.

 

[CommonBlob]

If there was a way to guestimate, you think anymore developers are working on this? Anyway to get more people on this? You think someone on this site could do a write up to get more attention? I think this is a rather crucial area that's been largely overlooked and thought that this could be a great niche...but as of right now Apple has no competition and I know a lot of musicians that are Apple exclusive because of this. I mean we can't be the only people that are concerned or have looked into this right????

There definitely will be developers looking at this. I don't think you will be seeing a full DAW in the near future on Metro, but we will eventually. All the other DAWs will keep going on desktop mode, and maybe make them a little more touch friendly.

The thing windows has going for it is the USB port and the full windows experience. There are already hundreds of devices that will work. However, I know today MIDI devices are not supported at all in metro, BUT, most modern midi devices also have USB so that is supported.

There is a road ahead with some uncertainties no doubt

 

[CommonBlob]

Wow, that's great news!!! 15ms would be usable, definitely. Blob, I'm so excited about this experiment. Can't wait to see how it translates on, say, a Surface!

Click to view quoted image

LOL

Its a little frustrating that so much of my code can't be directly moved to WinRT. Thankfully chunks can be.

I hope to get the phone version of the music studio out at the latest, August, so assuming im not sick of music apps by then, I can work on the WinRT version all the time (which is still part time as I have a job!)

 

[ejb222]

Please dont get sick of Music apps...we have way too many Photo apps(probably more than iPhone fart apps) to give up now.