06-13-2014 09:31 AM
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  1. ejb222's Avatar
    I don't know if I'm the only one, but if there are any musicians out there here is your shout out. One thing I miss from my iPhone days was the recording app. Add on a Blue Microphones | Mikey and you could record anything anywhere! Some one has to do some development for something like this...Think Audacity on your phone! Or some sort of quality recording studio.

    PLEASE:D
    06-22-2012 08:39 AM
  2. vp710's Avatar
    There is more than a recording app missing. The state of music apps on WP is quite pathetic for now.

    There's not even a good metronome app. One that would have great sounds, stability and advanced meters. iRealB would be great to have both on WP8 and W8. Guitar players on iOS can have amp simulation straight from their phones with iRig. There's the great Propellerheads app and even full DAWs.

    I've tested A LOT of the music apps on WP and I think the hardware requirements (and maybe the OS audio latency? A dev would have to back me up on that assumption - I know it's a problem on Android) is the limiting factor here. Most of them have a SIGNIFICANT input lag. There's no way you can use the instruments' apps on WP in real time. Too much lag. Now, is it because they're not optimized or because the OS does not allow it? Devs?

    I'd love to see a Music Apps Roundup article on WPCentral. I would even write it if this would generate any interest but some of the better rated apps have no trial (what's up with that?) and I just can't buy them all.

    Hopefully, with WP8 and W8 sharing so much code and making it so easy to develop an app for both platforms (and the fact it means reaching millions of users), with WP8 supporting more RAM and cores and with coming to WP (no need for an external mic) we'll get better and more music apps.
    Last edited by vp710; 06-22-2012 at 01:28 PM.
    06-22-2012 01:12 PM
  3. vp710's Avatar
    Just wanted to add that another problem is the fact that there are multiple hardware manufacturer limits the number of attachments available for the platform. With iOS, a manufacturer doesn't have to worry about making multiple versions of the same product. You mention the Mikey, and it's a great tool because it bypasses the internal headphones / internal mic amp resulting in great sound. The only option for a universal WP accessory would be to use Bluetooth and I'm not sure it would allow for low latency and high quality.

    Sent from my Lumia 710 using Board Express
    06-22-2012 01:39 PM
  4. ejb222's Avatar
    Great points...I really hope this is something considered with WP8. I mean its a natural progression right? And this is not new concepts :)
    06-22-2012 04:31 PM
  5. based_graham's Avatar
    Read a post on WMPoweruser a few months back.

    Nokia mentioned advanced Audio Recording on future Lumia's

    I cant find the article

    But Nokia is working on it ;)

    Only time will tell

    Regards,

    Based_Graham@twitter
    06-22-2012 05:09 PM
  6. vp710's Avatar
    Read a post on WMPoweruser a few months back.

    Nokia mentioned advanced Audio Recording on future Lumia's

    I cant find the article

    But Nokia is working on it ;)

    Only time will tell

    Regards,

    Based_Graham@twitter
    This? Nokia Explains Rich Recording, The New Audio Tech In Smartphones | WMPoweruser
    06-22-2012 05:13 PM
  7. ejb222's Avatar
    Sweet!
    1-Nokia is killing it with innovation! I hope they dont go anywhere(stockmarket wise etc)
    2-I hope there are Apps that make great use of this! I would love this combined with some sound recording apps and multitrack recorder.
    06-22-2012 10:32 PM
  8. vp710's Avatar
    After doing some reading it seems the ecosystem in WP7 is so restricted that devs just don't have access to what it takes to make low latency audio work.

    The future of W8 and WP8 as a serious platform for musicians is also full of uncertainties. I'm not a dev so a lot of what I've read was more confusing than helpful, but these people working with audio and developing apps were basically saying that it seems WinRT would be a step backwards in terms of audio latency - of course no final version of Win8 or WP8 has been released yet, and people did not have a firm opinion. But they sure didn't sound optimistic either; one of them went as far as saying that iOS could remain the only platform for serious musicians.

    If this were to be true, it would mean we wouldn't see any more quality apps for musicians than we have now (ie next to none) either on WinRT or WP8. Win8Pro having the desktop mode would run just like we're used to but we'd get no serious "metro" apps, nor any WP8 apps with low latency audio. So forget about the awesome iPad touch based instruments and recording apps.

    If any dev is reading this, or someone more knowledgeable could chime in, I'd really appreciate it.

    The most recent and relevant discussion I could find is there: http://createdigitalmusic.com/2012/0...y-hold-a-tune/
    Last edited by vp710; 06-23-2012 at 02:35 AM.
    ejb222 likes this.
    06-23-2012 02:23 AM
  9. ejb222's Avatar
    Thanks for the hard work! Hope we get some replies from developers. I hope this wasn't overlooked or ignored...or plain old I dont give a ____ by MS
    06-23-2012 02:46 AM
  10. vp710's Avatar
    Well, apparently there is no way to make a low latency audio app in WinRT (and as a consequence WP8) at the moment. :mad::mad: Still a few grey areas but unless something changes before the release of Win8, we'll be out of luck.
    06-23-2012 01:06 PM
  11. tissotti's Avatar
    Well, apparently there is no way to make a low latency audio app in WinRT (and as a consequence WP8) at the moment. :mad::mad: Still a few grey areas but unless something changes before the release of Win8, we'll be out of luck.
    Sounds weird, would think that if anything full WinRT framework would not have restrictions like this.
    I'm not doubting you as i have not searched info about this, was just not expecting this.

    That Nokia's rich recording is amazing. There's multiple concert recording out there already, another level than any other mobile device. Small example below from real life how 808 picks the sound (bottom video).
    http://nokiagadgets.com/2012/06/17/n...d-light-shown/


    Hopefully WP8 will not make restriction for Nokia to implement it like will likely happen with the full 41MP sensor at first.
    Last edited by tissotti; 06-23-2012 at 01:41 PM.
    ejb222 likes this.
    06-23-2012 01:35 PM
  12. vp710's Avatar
    I have no expertise on the subject but look at the comments on this page. The author of the article answers to this question:

    Not being a developer, there is something I don't understand: there were a few Win 8 beta versions released to the public, right? Couldn't someone get a definite answer as to whether or not it's possible to create low latency audio apps in the metro environment?
    With:

    Yes, and right now that definite answer is no. But I'm trying to get a more complete version of that answer.
    06-23-2012 01:43 PM
  13. based_graham's Avatar
    Agreed.

    In my opinion Microsoft should get

    1st party Audio and Video software

    Why not?

    Not everything is in a office

    Regards,

    Based_Graham@twitter
    ejb222 likes this.
    06-23-2012 02:42 PM
  14. vp710's Avatar
    I think part of Apple's products appeal to the masses is that they are used by creative people, be it in design, music, video, etc. I hope MS gets this right...
    Last edited by vp710; 06-23-2012 at 04:25 PM. Reason: If I forget to write words I'm not making any sense XD
    06-23-2012 02:51 PM
  15. tissotti's Avatar
    I have no expertise on the subject but look at the comments on this page. The author of the article answers to this question:



    With:
    What i have understood is that WASAPI is included in Win8 RT and the authors clarification did not at least tell to me why did he exactly overlook this as it gives you low latency API.
    Last edited by tissotti; 06-23-2012 at 03:23 PM.
    06-23-2012 02:55 PM
  16. vp710's Avatar
    What i have understood is that WASAPI is included in Win8 RT and the authors clarification did not at least tell to me why did he exactly overlook this as i gives you low latency API.
    From the article:

    WASAPI, but maybe not WASAPI. It may sound like we’ve entered a sushi restaurant, but stick with me here: this is about whether audio developers can build viable apps for this platform. Various readers have pointed out to me that WinRT (and applications built in it for this Windows RT tablet) does support Windows’ WASAPI stack for sound. The problem is, it’s a specific mode of WASAPI – Exclusive mode – that some developers believe is necessary to deliver lower latencies you need for many music apps. Or, at the very least, WASAPI alone isn’t enough; the question is how audio signal is routed between the application and the user, and whether it has to compete with other threads or is routed through a mixer in such a way that adds latency overhead. Human translation: The ARM tablet edition of Windows 8 may well be crap for sound, possibly even more so than Android. This is a longer discussion, though, and the reason I keep qualifying these statements is that we’re looking for more detailed, more finalized information. But the alternatives are this: either these tablets add the high-performance features desktop Windows has, or Microsoft is doing exactly what Google and their partners did: they’re leaving creative music and high-quality sound to be the exclusive domain of Apple.
    I get what you're saying. Where is the definite "no" coming from then?
    06-23-2012 03:03 PM
  17. tissotti's Avatar
    From the article:



    I get what you're saying. Where is the definite "no" coming from then?
    Exactly.
    WASAPI seems to be confirmed for Win RT 8 and much of else seems to be unknown for what i have been looking. What i have read is that WASAPI is low level API on RT and could possibly need more work from devs.

    Don't quite get where he comes to that last conclusion. Makes no sense to me.

    I agree with all of you above. Microsoft needs to gather creative crowd as well. You would expect Win 8 to be flexible, be it RT.
    Last edited by tissotti; 06-23-2012 at 04:05 PM.
    06-23-2012 03:44 PM
  18. CommonBlob's Avatar
    Well, vp710 pointed me in the direction of this thread.

    Ive been developing for WP since the start and have a few apps out there. One of them is Pianist Music Studio. It started as a piano and now has a guitar/sequencer/metronome etc.

    Inshort low latency audio is a problem in Windows Phone.
    There are really only 2 ways of playing audio.

    One is the SoundEffect class. Its a simple load the wav into a soundeffect, then use soundeffect.Play(). It will fire it as soon as the Frameworkupdater is fired.
    Then we have the dynamicsoundinstance. Now this is better, it allows you to buffer audio and it will just keep on playing until its buffer is empty, where it needs filling again.

    The first one is fire and forget, no need to worry much about it, it just works. The second is obviously much better, in my beta version I take a wav sample and modify it with envelopes and pitch changing before I buffer it and fire it out.

    This process of updating the buffer causes latency, not to mention processing the sound. However its not really this that's the massive problem. The main problem is how the OS deals with it.

    This frameworkupdater request is fired on each update, so upto 60fps. So that's part of your latency, then there is the latency for the audio engine on the phone to pick it up and process it, then it comes out your speakers. The main problem is windows phone's audio stack is all shared, it also goes through its own stuff. To get real low latency audio it needs to be a dedicated engine for your app where you can gain exclusive access.

    Currently this doesn't exist, and I suspect it still wont exist in WP8. BUT, with native development it will no doubt get better, but will it be enough. Who knows.

    Im currently working on my beta which has shifted from using SoundEffect to Dynamic soundinstance. It seems I need to keep my buffer size around 40 - 50ms. And that's just the buffer, that's ignoring the rest of the latency.

    However, I know I have some optimisation to do and there may be a way that I can tweak something to get this lower. Im currently switching the engine to be multithreaded so at least its off the UI thread (bad idea in the first place!)

    When WP8 hits and we have multicore it will be in a better position, but we shall see how better...

    I think I rambled in this post, so apologies if I talked crap :)
    tissotti, vp710, cedarlog and 1 others like this.
    06-23-2012 03:46 PM
  19. CommonBlob's Avatar
    Exactly.
    WASAPI seems to be confirmed for Win RT 8 and much of else seems to be unknown for what i have been looking. What i have read is that WASAPI is low level API on RT and could possibly need more work from devs.

    Don't quite get where he comes to that last conclusion. Makes no sense to me.

    I agree with all of you above. Microsoft needs to gather creative growd as well. You would expect Win 8 to b flexible, be it RT.
    I read the same. The problem is this: WASAPI in Metro will almost certainly be a shared audio engine. This is the problem. The moment its shared it passes through the windows mixers and everything gets more latency.

    If you were able to request exclusive access to the audio (Like you can in desktop mode) then this wouldn't be a problem as the app can deal with any routing/mixing.
    tissotti and vp710 like this.
    06-23-2012 03:49 PM
  20. vp710's Avatar
    Thanks for chiming in Blob!

    Man, I hope there will be a workaround to the shared audio engine in WP8, WinRT or it means the platform is doomed for musicians. But isn't it something that could easily be checked by downloading the Win8 Release Preview and playing with it? Sorry if it sounds ignorant.. :)

    Last edited by vp710; 06-23-2012 at 04:27 PM.
    06-23-2012 04:21 PM
  21. CommonBlob's Avatar
    Thanks for chiming in Blob!

    Man, I hope there will be a workaround to the shared audio engine in WP8, WinRT or it means the platform is doomed for musicians. But isn't it something that could easily be checked by downloading the Win8 Release Preview and playing with it? Sorry if it sounds ignorant.. :)

    Click to view quoted image
    yep, we could get the answers now. Although things could change before release. If i get a spare hour i might whip something up in winRT. However I'll be testing on a quad core i7. With an Emu sound card. Seems a little unfair when comparing to surface on ARM :D
    06-23-2012 04:38 PM
  22. vp710's Avatar
    yep, we could get the answers now. Although things could change before release. If i get a spare hour i might whip something up in winRT. However I'll be testing on a quad core i7. With an Emu sound card. Seems a little unfair when comparing to surface on ARM :D
    :lol: Indeed. But it still would give you an idea how the audio processes are handled in WinRT, right? Thanks for helping us out!
    06-23-2012 04:40 PM
  23. CommonBlob's Avatar
    :lol: Indeed. But it still would give you an idea how the audio processes are handled in WinRT, right? Thanks for helping us out!
    I'll look into it tomorrow and let you know. :D
    vp710 and ejb222 like this.
    06-23-2012 05:03 PM
  24. freestaterocker's Avatar
    I think part of Apple's products appeal to the masses is that they are used by creative people, be it in design, music, video, etc. I hope MS gets this right...
    Reminds me of that GS2 commercial taking potshots at people lining up outside the Apple Store for the new phone...

    "I could never use a Samsung. I'm creative."

    "Dude. You're a BARISTA."

    ROFLMFAO
    06-23-2012 11:20 PM
  25. ejb222's Avatar
    This is why I love this forum!
    06-24-2012 08:00 PM
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