04-06-2013 12:43 PM
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  1. foxbat121's Avatar
    You are correct about the scaling. And as I stated previously I'm not talking about layout scale which is only a problem in 720p because of extra height. I'm talking about picture rescale and for some apps that is a problem. I had to change some apps because of banding in some logo who used gradients(not my apps) and who didn't scale right and the noise added to them was not coping with the banding anymore. You will get noise in images whether you upscale or downscale them no matter what so you need support for a new resolution in the SDK.
    Got it. I was simply talking about vector graphics on app layouts, not bitmaps. For bitmaps, you will have to make one for each resolution for best results.

    WPF rendering, which is what Sliverlight and WP apps originated from, on desktop has long being hardware accelerated using DirectX. Scaling and transformation on that do take advantage of the GPU hardware.
    03-22-2013 08:47 PM
  2. ChMar's Avatar
    why is it a mistake if it's 1 SOC? as you said, this is a similar to what apple is doing which is a good thing. developers (including microsoft) have only 1 SOC to code for so they can make apps that are extremely efficient for that specific hardware platform, where as the opposite is seen in android. android developers not only have to figure out the brand of the SOC (tegra, exynos, mediated etc), but the specific models as well? that's WAY to much variation hence why most apps aren't written as efficiently. the lack of efficiency is what leads android to require these INSANE numbers of RAM, cores, speeds, etc (if an app is written efficiently, you don't need a 2 ghz quad core A-15 with 2 gb ram to run it). the only thing i would agree with that's on android is the GPU (which is starting to catch up to the iphone). they're coming out with tri-core gpu setups (like gs4 with the MP544+3 similar to iphone 5) and extra which is always a need for games.
    OS and the .net takes care of cpu differences. So you won't have to optimize for apps. So lagging in android is not about different CPUs it's because of it's multitasking and because it lets the coders be as lazy as they want(and we all know lazy is good) and indulge in their single threaded background and foreground madness.

    And don't forget this is mobile world not desktop world and it's crazy race in gpu power. There are no AAA games for phones and will never be(battery issues). So as long as the larger audience is running on older architecture there will be no games that will bottleneck the GPU and a very small percentage of 3d intensive games. I believe the current rendering middleware for smartphones are in their infancies and will not mature in the next 2 years to even allow for cases of GPU bottlenecks.

    Look at rage for iphone. I was expecting to give iphone a run for it's money but ended up being a shooter on rail with complete control given to level designers so you could tune the levels as to never get in a position of gpu issues. So it's not the games driving the spec race as on desktop it's just pure marketing and the need to cope with coders laziness for the android.
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 08:48 PM
  3. foxbat121's Avatar
    Well, I suspect that WP8(Blue+) and WP9 devices will coexist for a while, just like WP7 and WP8 devices do today. That is why I don't believe that such a move would prevent Nokia from offering cheap devices. Nokia can continue to sell cheaper WP8 devices with 800x480 panels. Also, there will come a time when 1280x720 panels don't cost more than 800x480 panels do today, and that time isn't too far off.
    For most ppl, 720p screen has little or no benefit. So, you will always have a market where ppl prefer save money than chasing specs. But in the mean time, they do want whatever new features offered in new OS. Even with the lower cost of 720p screen, 480p screen could be even cheaper.
    In regard to the sub-optimal support for 1280x720 resolutions, yes, those are all WP7 apps, made by developers who don't have the time to support two different versions of the same app, or don't want to make that investment only for the sake of getting rid of those black bars. However, we are talking about a point in time that is yet a ways off. By then, it is unlikely we will have many actively developed WP7 apps left in the market. Any app that gets a real WP8 port will support that resolution just fine.
    As explained above, it is not just WP7 apps. Apps that use bitmap backgrounds need to be redesigned. There are quite a few WP8 apps, even the popular ones, currently don't support 720p.
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 08:53 PM
  4. foxbat121's Avatar
    OS and the .net takes care of cpu differences. So you won't have to optimize for apps.
    That's not true at all. Games are largely written in native C++, not .NET. Optimization is still quite important.

    All WP8 apps are actually compiled into native code by Microsoft when you submit the app. There isn't a JIT compiler on WP8 like on WP7. In theory, it should results in better app startup performance.
    03-22-2013 08:58 PM
  5. ChMar's Avatar
    For most ppl, 720p screen has little or no benefit. So, you will always have a market where ppl prefer save money than chasing specs. But in the mean time, they do want whatever new features offered in new OS. Even with the lower cost of 720p screen, 480p screen could be even cheaper.
    The 720p screen does not bring any benefits true but it's good for ppi screen size stats, marketing and inoculating the idea that your phone is hd ready just like tv sets are. 480p screens have the added advantage of lower ram needs. And in this regard I'm sure Microsoft will not bulge and the correlation between resolution and ram available will remain in stone. I highly doubt that Microsoft(or Blackberry) will ever try to raise the specifications bar above other platforms and will instead just adapt to what competition is doing. Android gain it's market share not from high end devices but from the lower ones with lousy specs. In my country there are a lot of android devices given for free by operators now that sport 320pixel resolutions and 3'' screens and are becoming the first smartphones for many consumers.

    The good part is 1080p will cap the resolution war and in the end will only have 4 resolutions to work with.
    03-22-2013 09:09 PM
  6. rimlover's Avatar
    Incorrect. No way MSFT only coded wp8 to use an S4 processor. They would not be that shortsighted. Though I guess it would give them plenty of proof to tell customers that they need to upgrade to a new device to be able to get wp9 on their next phone. "The hardware is the only thing keeping WP8 from being ported to WP7x devices....BLAH BLAH BLAH." "We had to re-write the kernel for wp9 and that kernel will not work on the older processors."
    they already re-wrote the kernel to where it's similar to windows so that can't be an excuse this time. i doubt they will do that anyways because of the repercussions that are attached with that. its similar to the saying 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me', meaning that a lot of people wouldn't trust MS anymore and ditch the os. i just hope they do something about the update process and make it a lot more coherent.
    03-22-2013 09:09 PM
  7. rimlover's Avatar
    Another misinformed user crying over something he doesn't fully understand. smdh
    that's not helpful at all. at least elaborate and inform him.
    Robert Carpenter likes this.
    03-22-2013 09:11 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    OS and the .net takes care of cpu differences.<snipped>
    For games, the processing power of each individual component does become important. Is the GPU running ahead of the CPU? Is the CPU running ahead of the GPU? Can you afford to do a bit more AI processing, or do you need to get back to preparing the next scene so the GPU doesn't run out of work? Yes, I'm talking about fast paced twitch games, like car racing, but for these games such differences in performance aren't abstracted away by the OS! This is one of the big benefits of console development! The existence of a precisely defined hardware spec is what allows developers to tickle as much out of consoles as they do. Current consoles are almost a decade old... dinosaurs of the computing realm... yet what they offer doesn't look that much worse than what we get on the most high-end PCs. Often times, the difference comes down to little more than texture resolution, display resolution and FPS. That is worth something! Particularly on devices that are so resource constrained as smartphones. It would be very interesting to see what devs can do with a WP device, given the same luxuries that console developers enjoy.

    At this point, from a game developers point of view, WP is not entirely, but pretty close to being a console, whereas Android is more like the PC jungle. That is a good thing, and if MS has any sense, they will put effort into keeping it that way. It's about balancing the needs of all stakeholders and giving WP an edge in at least one area consumers are interested in.
    Last edited by a5cent; 03-23-2013 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Spelling only
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 09:15 PM
  9. ChMar's Avatar
    That's not true at all. Games are largely written in native C++, not .NET. Optimization is still quite important.

    All WP8 apps are actually compiled into native code by Microsoft when you submit the app. There isn't a JIT compiler on WP8 like on WP7. In theory, it should results in better app startup performance.
    .Net apps are not compiled in native code on the cloud. It's not a complete ngen process. The MSIL is precompiled into another intermediate language with some inline CPU instructions but you still have the jit. I don't see the jit going away completely as it does provide benefits.

    I work as a game programmer and games are being written in C++ but you don't get much space for optimization beside the usual care you must take. Usual threading is done(api issues). ASM inlining in game code is gone for years as it was not providing any benefits and a lot of old desktop memory optimizations are gone in windows 8 and windows phone 8 (no api for custom pagination support). So beside caching in memory and taking care of memory fragmentation you won't have much room for improvements. And since xbox360 load/store issues people got used to how to order their instructions. So there is no issue here with multiple CPU supported by the os not even in case of the games.
    03-22-2013 09:18 PM
  10. ChMar's Avatar
    For games, the processing power of each individual component does become important. Is the GPU running ahead of the CPU? Is the CPU running ahead of the GPU? Can you afford to do a bit more AI processing, or do you need to get back to preparing the next scene so the GPU doesn't run out of work? Yes, I'm talking about fast paced twitch games, like car racing, but for these games such differences in performance aren't abstracted away by the OS! This is one of the big benefits of console development! The existence of a precisely defined hardware spec which to program against, is what allows developers to tickle as much out of consoles that they do. Current consoles are almost a decade old... dinosaurs of the computing realm... yet what they offer doesn't look that much worse than what we get on the most high-end PCs. Often times, the difference comes down to little more than texture resolution, display resolution and FPS. That is worth something! Particularly on devices that are so resource constrained as smartphones. It would be very interesting to see what devs can do with a WP device, given the same luxuries that console developers enjoy.

    At this point, from a game developers point of view, WP is not entirely, but pretty close to being a console, whereas Android is more like PC jungle. That is a good thing, and if MS has any sense, they will put effort into keeping it that way. It's about balancing the needs of all stakeholders and giving WP an edge in at least one area consumers are interested in.
    As I said I work as a game programmer and the idea that consoles because of their balance are almost on par with modern computer even given their age is just a myth. There are huge differences in performance(especially CPU) but a game on PC will not look much better than a game on current gen console not because of the code but because of the artists. There is not enough sales on pc to make higher resolution or higher polygonal models so you get the same models as on the console and bigger texture since you have more memory and that's all. It's just to save costs. And also you gain a bigger market on pc this way. No one will make a new ai(or even a more precise physics simulation) for pc even if though there you can spare cpu cycles for it. As for the balance GPU and CPU can be made to run in parallel without much hassle(you just render one frame behind).
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 09:25 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    For most ppl, 720p screen has little or no benefit. So, you will always have a market where ppl prefer save money than chasing specs. But in the mean time, they do want whatever new features offered in new OS. Even with the lower cost of 720p screen, 480p screen could be even cheaper.
    At some point economies of scale are more important. Once you start producing hundreds of millions of these 720p panels a year, I doubt any significant price difference will remain. Surely the price difference for the materials of similarly sized panels are almost irrelevant compared to operational expenditures and equipment and fab amortisation?

    As explained above, it is not just WP7 apps. Apps that use bitmap backgrounds need to be redesigned. There are quite a few WP8 apps, even the popular ones, currently don't support 720p.
    I'll give you that. I thought you were talking only about the black bars.
    03-22-2013 09:25 PM
  12. AngryNil's Avatar
    If Microsoft wants to keep Surface RT going, Tegra 4 and Snapdragon 800 are fine choices. I think they should go with Atom, though.
    03-22-2013 09:27 PM
  13. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    If Microsoft wants to keep Surface RT going, Tegra 4 and Snapdragon 800 are fine choices. I think they should go with Atom, though.
    If it has an atom, then it isn't Windows RT ;)
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 09:40 PM
  14. ChMar's Avatar
    they already re-wrote the kernel to where it's similar to windows so that can't be an excuse this time. i doubt they will do that anyways because of the repercussions that are attached with that. its similar to the saying 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me', meaning that a lot of people wouldn't trust MS anymore and ditch the os. i just hope they do something about the update process and make it a lot more coherent.
    Microsoft was completely right to ditch the old windows phone 7. They never said will get upgraded and I believe all OEMs were happy about that. You spend money on design and on engineers to make a product and you expect profit. Now you have to have a team of people working for the firmware upgrades making new drivers and run tests on multiple devices so you make your sold windows phone 7 accept a different os without problems. This way you make no profit. No profit for oems no future for the platforms. I strongly believe that even if Microsoft tried to persuade oems to update their handsets to wp8 they would have refused. Better ditch the old and start designing a new phone with less problems.
    a5cent likes this.
    03-22-2013 09:43 PM
  15. foxbat121's Avatar
    At some point economies of scale are more important. Once you start producing hundreds of millions of these 720p panels a year, I doubt any significant price difference will remain. Surely the price difference for the materials of similarly sized panels are almost irrelevant compared to operational expenditures and equipment and fab amortisation?
    As someone else mentioned above, it is not just screen itself. With a lower res screen comes with lower end CPU and less memory and all add up to really cheap phones. Nokia used to sell phone for around $100 retail. And all indications are, they want to go back to that route.

    I'll give you that. I thought you were talking only about the black bars.
    WP8 apps that don't support 720p resolution will still have the black bars. That's why there are many threads out there from HTX 8x owners to collect a list of apps that DO support 720p.
    03-22-2013 09:49 PM
  16. foxbat121's Avatar
    If Microsoft wants to keep Surface RT going, Tegra 4 and Snapdragon 800 are fine choices. I think they should go with Atom, though.
    I will take my fanless battery sipping RT any day over hot running battery sucking ATOM tablet. It simply doesn't make sense to me. If I want a larger, AC tethered tablet, I'd just go with any laptop.

    Intel has been lagging way behind in tablet processor space. ATOM is not the answer yet. I'll reserve my judgment for the new intel chip coming later this year which promises x86 speed with ARM power consumption.
    03-22-2013 09:52 PM
  17. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    Lets take a concrete example of the Adreno 225's limits, with a scenario everyone can test...

    Download (unless you've purchased) The Dark Knight Rises. Play through the first stages where there is a lot going on on the screen (the city), with lightning, rain, etc; notice just how laggy the game is. When you get to a stage where Batman is in the sewers, the game is somehow magically 30 fps smooth, in the same game....

    Why is this...? Because the GPU couldn't handle the graphic intensive parts of the game that featured dynamic lighting, shading, etc, without slowing the game down to render it. The point being made is that, even with optimizations made, there is a physical limitation of the 225, and it doesn't take much to exploit it. This can be remedied by reducing the graphics. Take, for example, Modern Combat 4 on Android. If you play the game on a Nexus 10 vs a Nexus 4, you'll notice that one has more detailed graphics and such, with the reason being that the game was optimized for the GPU it was running, showing developers recognize that the GPU simply couldn't push the high end graphics. This should've been done with the games we've received in the past few weeks but it wasn't, and as a result, these games run with higher graphics and slower. Perhaps they tried to show richer graphics to help the lack of high end games on the platform.

    Whatever the case, there IS a physical limitation on the GPU of current WP8 devices that have basically made them obsolete in the gaming department from day 1 (high end games)...
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 10:03 PM
  18. AngryNil's Avatar
    I will take my fanless battery sipping RT any day over hot running battery sucking ATOM tablet. It simply doesn't make sense to me. If I want a larger, AC tethered tablet, I'd just go with any laptop.

    Intel has been lagging way behind in tablet processor space. ATOM is not the answer yet. I'll reserve my judgment for the new intel chip coming later this year which promises x86 speed with ARM power consumption.
    I'm sorry, I don't think you've been following Atom very closely.

    Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 Review | Windows 8 Tablet Reviews

    Atom Windows 8 tablets are far superior today to Windows RT tablets. Come Q4 this year, game over in my eye.

    If it has an atom, then it isn't Windows RT ;)
    I'm saying that in my opinion, they should scrap RT and have Atom as the $500 wide consumer push.
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 10:05 PM
  19. ChMar's Avatar
    Lets take a concrete example of the Adreno 225's limits, with a scenario everyone can test...

    Download (unless you've purchased) The Dark Knight Rises. Play through the first stages where there is a lot going on on the screen (the city), with lightning, rain, etc; notice just how laggy the game is. When you get to a stage where Batman is in the sewers, the game is somehow magically 30 fps smooth, in the same game....

    Why is this...? Because the GPU couldn't handle the graphic intensive parts of the game that featured dynamic lighting, shading, etc, without slowing the game down to render it. The point being made is that, even with optimizations made, there is a physical limitation of the 225, and it doesn't take much to exploit it. This can be remedied by reducing the graphics. Take, for example, Modern Combat 4 on Android. If you play the game on a Nexus 10 vs a Nexus 4, you'll notice that one has more detailed graphics and such, with the reason being that the game was optimized for the GPU it was running, showing developers recognize that the GPU simply couldn't push the high end graphics. This should've been done with the games we've received in the past few weeks but it wasn't, and as a result, these games run with higher graphics and slower. Perhaps they tried to show richer graphics to help the lack of high end games on the platform.

    Whatever the case, there IS a physical limitation on the GPU of current WP8 devices that have basically made them obsolete in the gaming department from day 1 (high end games)...
    Do you have proof that it does not lags on other platforms? It may be because there are too many polygons on the screen at one time but this could affect other platforms as well. It may be because of memory limitations: WP8 has 380MB available to an app for use while iphone is not limited in any way(some guidelines are to not cross 50% of available memory) so there may be lod models missing to mitigate the polygon count on the screen.
    03-22-2013 10:27 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    As I said I work as a game programmer and the idea that consoles because of their balance are almost on par with modern computer even given their age is just a myth.
    I agree, but that isn't related to the point I was trying to get across ;-)

    I'll try differently. Games are either GPU or CPU bound. Using the video settings menu, PC gamers can/must often choose where they want that bottleneck. Console gamers don't have to choose, because experts are able to make that choice for them. In making that choice, console developers are afforded the freedom to distribute their processing tasks however they want, across the consoles precisely defined and standardized hardware configuration. That step is an optimization step, because the processing tasks are designed and tailored to run well on that particular hardware.

    Should smartphone developers not also be afforded that same freedom? If yes, then that requires a certain amount of standardization, because you can't distribute processing tasks amongst an undefined hardware configuration. But that is all Android provides... just like the PC, the hardware configuration is almost entirely undefined. If you must develop a game that runs great on a low end quad-core, a high end 4+4 core, a mid range dual-core, and a whole host of differently spec'ed GPU's, then the typical route is to code against the lowest common denominator... which is exactly what is happening with Android today, meaning those with high-end hardware aren't getting half of what their devices are actually capable of, just like today's PC gamers... similar problem, similar syndromes. No?

    My point was that MS is trying to leverage these same benefits, that are inherent to consoles, for WP, at least to a degree.

    There are huge differences in performance(especially CPU) but a game on PC will not look much better than a game on current gen console not because of the code but because of the artists.
    True, but how to you think this would behave if a new console generation was released, say, every 18 months?
    Last edited by a5cent; 03-23-2013 at 12:14 AM. Reason: spelling only
    rimlover likes this.
    03-22-2013 10:37 PM
  21. rimlover's Avatar
    Agree. We actually agree on almost everything, except that one issue, which is whether or not calling the Adreno 225 insufficient is premature.



    I take "sufficient" to mean that games on WP8 devices can run at equivalent quality settings, at identical resolutions, and at the same frame rates as on the competitions devices, preferably noticeably better on all three counts (because that would be a great way to grab more market share).

    First take a look at this GPU benchmark, comparing the MSM8960 (as in the L920 but tested on the SGS3) to the A6 (from the iP5). Notice that the iP5's GPU is often twice as fast in every relevant metric (ignore the onscreen tests, as the iP5 will always perform better in those tests due to having a lower resolution display).

    You can rightfully argue that WP8 isn't burdened with many of Androids inefficient software stacks, but consider that games tend to bypass most of those inefficiencies. OpenGL provides Android developers a very direct (and exceedingly well optimized) route to their GPU, just as DirectX does for WP developers. I don't doubt that a L920 could better the SGS3 in this benchmark, but I don't see it getting anywhere close to the results spit out by the iP5. IMHO that difference is just to big to overcome with software engineering alone. This is disappointing, because both devices hit the market at roughly the same time.

    I wouldn't argue my position in an academic paper, because as you say until you actually measure it nobody can really know, but still... that difference must be almost impossible to overcome, no?

    BTW: really liking this thread... high quality discussion!
    why would you ignore the onscreen test? if anything you should be ignoring the offscreen test. on screen is what matters to the consumer at the end of the day. i don't care how many pixels you can push @ 1080 but if it lags on the phone screen that's what matters. also, (i said this numerous times) apple has the right approach. the most taxing application require GPU performance not CPU. apple put dual & tri graphics cards since the 4 or 4s i believe. the only other manufacturer that i see that is FINALLY realizing this is surprisingly samsung. they're introducing the same GPU in there s4 as in the iphone 5.

    i like this thread to. props to the op.
    jrdatrackstar1223 likes this.
    03-22-2013 10:40 PM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    As someone else mentioned above, it is not just screen itself. With a lower res screen comes with lower end CPU and less memory and all add up to really cheap phones. Nokia used to sell phone for around $100 retail. And all indications are, they want to go back to that route.
    No. It's the OS that defines RAM and GPU configurations. Although WP7 devices with a resolution of 800x480 were shipped with 256 MB RAM, that RAM configuration isn't allowed for WP8 devices! Nokia can't just choose to put in a cheaper GPU either, because the WP8 chassis spec states exactly which SoCs are acceptable. Choosing an 800x480 resolution panel for a WP8 device gives Nokia exactly those savings. Nothing more.
    03-22-2013 10:46 PM
  23. ChMar's Avatar
    I agree, but that isn't related to the point I was trying to get across ;-)

    I'll try differently. Games are either GPU or CPU bound. Using the video settings menu, PC gamers can/must often choose where they want that bottleneck. Console gamers don't have to choose, because experts are able to make that choice for them. In making that choice, console developers are afforded the freedom to distribute their processing tasks however they want, across the consoles precisely defined and standardized hardware configuration. That step is an optimization step, because the processing tasks are designed and tailored to run well on that particular hardware.
    Games should not be CPU or GPU bound period. I can tell you lots of stories from making games for consoles. And your hair will rise on your hands. Having hardware fixed and so balancing the workload is also a myth. The idea is different. All console manufacturers impose some criteria on the games that runs on their hardware. On Xbox 360 you can't have longer load times than 30 seconds. This is measured on dev consoles and do not account from lag that may incur during reading faulty dvds. You can't go sub 30fps. It's true that those rules are less enforced for AAA games than for smaller dev companies but the point is that those standards means you cant ship half baked games. Is those standards that allows for good performance. On PC hardware there are no rules.

    In making games you always make the fps stable and clear memory leaks at the end and this is why you may get some lags in some areas. On a race game for consoles(Harley Davidson brand) an ***** of a level designer hid a 1 million polygon sphere under the road so he could have from where to shave polygons when the hunt for constant fps begin. Guess what the ***** forgot about it and so the entire programming division spend 2 days looking for the problem. Hands with 300,000 being draw just because the modeler was lazy and didn't optimize the model and so on.

    In the end I know of only one game(not AAA unfortunately) that implemented a fps failsafe mechanism. If fps get fluctuating(this is the lag you see, you don't perceive low fps you perceive the changes in fps) it reduces the fill area(renders to a lower resolution texture and blitting on the framebuffer) until the fps jigsaw passes. 3D hungry games are a complex business depending much more on the level designers and artists than on the programmers.
    jrdatrackstar1223 likes this.
    03-22-2013 10:51 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    why would you ignore the onscreen test? <snipped> The on screen is what matters to the consumer at the end of the day.
    I agree. The point is that we are currently discussing the drawbacks and merits specifically of the Adreno 225 GPU. We aren't discussing particular devices, or at least I'm not. ;-)

    The onscreen performance doesn't really interest me that much until that benchmark site also lists a high-end WP8 device. Until then, everything is theoretical.
    03-22-2013 10:55 PM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    Games should not be CPU or GPU bound period.
    Hey ChMar, I so want to respond to your post, but I really need to get some shut eye. Been very interesting so far. Hope to see you guys later!
    03-22-2013 10:57 PM
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