IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is bad.

a5cent

New member
Nov 3, 2011
6,622
0
0
Visit site
@OP
You are completely clueless. With so little understanding, you shouldn't be trying to invent your own opinion.

@EdSheriff
In regard to the Adreno 225: I completely appreciate your approach, and in general would agree, but in this particular case I think those criticizing the GPU are correct. It's easier to benchmark a GPU than a CPU, because it's purpose is very narrowly defined. Anandtech has quite a few benchmarks that show the 225 is far behind its contemporary competitors, particularly the iP5. The MSM8960T comes with an Adreno 320, which is what should have shipped in every WP8 device, but arrived two months late. IMHO this destroyed WP8's chance of ever pulling ahead of the pack in mobile gaming, because all WP8 games will now be restricted to running on whatever a 225 can handle at 1280x868... in other words, gaming on WP8 will never be more than 'me too' efforts. That could and should have been different.

The GPU is my only beef with the MSM8960 and MSM8227, which are otherwise still some of the best SoCs available.

For others reading along... The term Qualcomm S4 refers to a whole family of SoCs (system on chip). Using the term S4 by itself means almost nothing. For any real discussion, one really must refer to the actual SoC (see Wikipedia).
 

a5cent

New member
Nov 3, 2011
6,622
0
0
Visit site
Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

Incorrect. No way MSFT only coded wp8 to use an S4 processor. They would not be that shortsighted.

No, not incorrect. As it is now, the OS can't run on any other SoC. WP8 runs only within the S4 family and must be adapted to run on alternatives.

For WP, only MS can make those adaptations, which is surely under way right now.

For smartphones, the OS always needs explicit adaptation to the underlying core hardware! Always! This is not at all like in the PC space. It is also the reason Android updates will always require manufacturer intervention, because on Android, such adaptations are the manufacturers business, whereas on WP it is Microsoft's.
 

Villain

New member
Mar 6, 2011
672
0
0
Visit site
I'm almost 90% sure the rebooting had to do with the antenna and signal strength. my first 8X had 20+ reboots per day for 3 weeks I tested/though multiple problems BUT I then noticed the reboots were not so random, certain parts of my city, reboot pattern when traveling to and from work and while I was at work.

- whenever my signal dipped to 1 bar.
- certain known dead zones in my city.
- 4 exact spots driving on the highway to work everyday switching from tower to tower (I worked for rogers so I have mapping for all the canadian cell towers.. well as of last year)
- very very weak signal at my work because I work in a casino surveillance room that's reinforced concert and steel.


may not be the source of all the reboots BUT I'm almost positive it had to do with network connectivity.
 

casab1anca

New member
Dec 3, 2012
129
0
0
Visit site
Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

Incorrect. No way MSFT only coded wp8 to use an S4 processor. They would not be that shortsighted.

No, they are not shortsighted. The code itself is very likely to be portable across platforms, however the build is usually highly optimized for a specific processor, which means the resulting binary cannot be shared across different processors without recompiling the code. Android, on the other hand, has to forgo these optimizations so that it can run on a variety of processors.
 

Angry_Mushroom

New member
Jan 18, 2013
402
0
0
Visit site
Rumor has it the second gen RT tablet will run on a Qualcomm chipset. No clue beyond that. The Tegra 3 does seem to have under performed, and it looks like no one feels threatened by the Tegra 4.

Otherwise the Qualcomm S4 is a damn fine chipset. It runs in quite a large amount of phones. The Samsung Galaxy SIII is one such phone. Apparently the dual core held its own against the quad core Exynos.
 

EdSherriff

New member
Mar 21, 2013
49
0
0
Visit site
@OP
IMHO this destroyed WP8's chance of ever pulling ahead of the pack in mobile gaming, because all WP8 games will now be restricted to running on whatever a 225 can handle at 1280x868... in other words, gaming on WP8 will never be more than 'me too' efforts. That could and should have been different.

I can't see how you can make any solid judgement on how games are going to perform on WP8, there simply aren't enough examples that truly push the platform to the limit. There are many advantages WP8 has over Android in terms of API and optimisation that make it a more attractive platform for developers (market share aside).

Regarding resolution maybe I'm getting old, but in my opinion most of the best games ever made had a native resolution of 576i (or below if you live in NTSC land). This obsession with HD resolution on sub 5 inch screens is just getting stupid as is summing up the performance of any component using a single metric; cameras in megapixels, processors in GHz or audio amplifiers in Watts. If you want to know why WP8 is a currently a "me too" gaming platform for high budget mobile titles, read Paul's articles on "How Microsoft can save Xbox gaming", they list the real factors that affect developers decisions as cited by the developers themselves, I don't remember seeing Microsoft's GPU choice in there.
 

jrdatrackstar1223

New member
Aug 15, 2011
848
0
0
Visit site
I can't see how you can make any solid judgement on how games are going to perform on WP8, there simply aren't enough examples that truly push the platform to the limit. There are many advantages WP8 has over Android in terms of API and optimisation that make it a more attractive platform for developers (market share aside).

Regarding resolution maybe I'm getting old, but in my opinion most of the best games ever made had a native resolution of 576i (or below if you live in NTSC land). This obsession with HD resolution on sub 5 inch screens is just getting stupid as is summing up the performance of any component using a single metric; cameras in megapixels, processors in GHz or audio amplifiers in Watts. If you want to know why WP8 is a currently a "me too" gaming platform for high budget mobile titles, read Paul's articles on "How Microsoft can save Xbox gaming", they list the real factors that affect developers decisions as cited by the developers themselves, I don't remember seeing Microsoft's GPU choice in there.

You're referring to developer reasoning for not choosing windows phone to target from a business perspective, not the physical limitations of the hardware itself. Its no secret that the Adreno 225 is weak compared to the competition. The Galaxy S4 is coming, the iPhone 5 had it beat before the device even released, and the Adreno 225 can only beat devices of yesterday. This is what was meant by the platform never being able to reach a higher status in the gaming department because you simply can't overcome hardware limitations, no matter how much love/hate you have for the platform.

You say developers never mentioned the GPU being a concern; of course they wouldn't say that because then that would apply to Android devices that use this GPU (Galaxy S III, HTC One X, and other "high-end" devices with high marketshare). That's why high-end games run like crap on Android because developers simply do crap ports from iOS, with no regard to optimization for hardware and recognizing the physical limitations of the device (which is what we are seeing right now with the games that have been ported from Gameloft)....
 
Last edited:

uselessrobot

New member
Nov 14, 2012
552
0
0
Visit site
You're referring to developer reasoning for not choosing windows phone to target from a business perspective, not the physical limitations of the hardware itself. Its no secret that the Adreno 225 is weak compared to the competition. The S4 is coming, the iPhone had it beat before it even released, and the Adreno can only beat devices of yesterday. This is what was meant by the platform never being able to reach a higher status in the gaming department because you simply can't hurdle hardware limitations, no matter how much love/hate you have for the platform...

The Adreno 225 is on par with the vast majority of phones on the market. Of course there are always going to be absolute top tier, and it was inevitable that the Galaxy S4 would be at the top of the heap. And in this case it accomplished it by incorporating a variant of the GPU from the iPhone 5. And that's where the iPhone/iPad have always excelled. They're outliers in that they've always had powerful GPUs which insured better longevity. While people knocking them for what seemed to be weak CPUs they were overlooking the more critical component. The most taxing thing you can throw at your phone is gaming, and that's where that GPU matters more than anything else.

However, when you get down to it, the biggest factor in performance amongst all these phones is optimization. Gameloft games run like crap, not because the hardware can't handle it, but because their developers either suck or can't be bothered to optimize. The same games enjoy better performance on Android phones with identical hardware, so obviously that can't be the limiting factor. We're at the end of the development chain. That means those companies are outsourcing to the cheapest bidder, quality be damned.
 
Nov 7, 2012
540
0
0
Visit site
Can everyone take a second to understand this? It will help answer any doubts you have about the future of Windows Phone. :)

Windows Phone 8 is not limited to the Snapdragon S4 in any way.
Windows Phone 8 resembles Windows 8.
They use driver files in the same format and same way.
Windows Phone 8 has specific driver files for the Snapdragon S4.
These driver files can be replaced by appropriate driver files for a different processor for a phone with different hardware.
This is already the case with multiple other hardware components such as the different camera drivers for the Lumia 920 and the HTC 8X.
All of these drivers are in the same folder and ANY of them can be added/replaced/removed for hardware.

Now put yourself in a company's position when developing a phone. You can develop new drivers for a processor that hasn't been used yet, or you can reuse the same exact drivers that have already been created for the Snapdragon S4.

It's not that it's impossible to use another processor. It's because no one is willing to invest the resources and extra months of development to produce the driver files for a different processor.

What I'm not sure about is if Qualcomm developed the drivers for Windows Phone and sells them along with the chipset or if Microsoft develops these drivers. The manufacturers, like Nokia, could also be responsible and simply license the drivers to the others who want to save time.

The entire Windows ecosystem wasn't developed for only the consumers to have as little compromise as possible. They have spent an enormous amount of time planning every move so that there is as little compromise as possible for the manufacturers and developers too. It's pure technical beauty when you understand the entire picture.

But what about other limitations that are not driver/hardware related?

Any other limitations that exist in the operating system can be modified with updates. They don't have the full feature set like the competitors yet. But they have the best base-level code implementation out of any of the competitors. Which means down the road others like Android and iOS will hit walls and limitations that cannot be bypassed without some sort of disruption (like breaking app compatibility or having to start with an entirely new operating system) and there is nothing they can do about it. But Windows Phone will not hit walls and limits like these until years and years after. This is when Windows Phone will pull away from the competition. This is 100% accurate information. The code inside of the operating system does not lie.

Thank you for your time ;)
 

a5cent

New member
Nov 3, 2011
6,622
0
0
Visit site
It's pure technical beauty when you understand the entire picture.

I can tell you are a like minded developer! Completely agree again. That technical beauty is exactly what drew me into the WP platform, although I think that beauty extends to many of WP's related policies and strategies as well. All of this combines to form a perfectly coordinated system of technology, processes and rules that has remained surprisingly pure. I wish this was apparent to everyone. Even amongst developers the ability to see that deep into the system and appreciate it is rare!

What I'm not sure about is if Qualcomm developed the drivers for Windows Phone and sells them along with the chipset or if Microsoft develops these drivers. The manufacturers, like Nokia, could also be responsible and simply license the drivers to the others who want to save time.

Qualcomm develops the drivers for Android. For WP the drivers are a joint effort. From what I gather (I have contacts in Redmond), Qualcomm completes a few select tasks and offers guidance, but it is Microsoft that does most of the work.
 
Nov 7, 2012
540
0
0
Visit site
I can tell you are a like minded developer! Completely agree again. That technical beauty is exactly what drew me into the WP platform, although I think that beauty extends to many of WP's related policies and strategies as well. All of this combines to form a perfectly coordinated system of technology, processes and rules that has remained surprisingly pure. I wish this was apparent to everyone. Even amongst developers the ability to see that deep into the system and appreciate it is rare!



Qualcomm develops the drivers for Android. For WP the drivers are a joint effort. From what I gather (I have contacts in Redmond), Qualcomm completes a few select tasks and offers guidance, but it is Microsoft that does most of the work.

Awesome information. I was reading about the exclusive partnership between Qualcomm and Microsoft so after I saw that I figured this might be the case.

From reading your other posts around here, I knew we had the same mindset. To be honest, I haven't found anyone else besides you who shares it. I guess that's just how it is when you see and understand the pieces of the puzzle that the average consumer can't. ;)

It's funny too, because being able to see deep into the system has really given me the ability to predict each move they make. My latest being: http://forums.windowscentral.com/windows-8/217049-metro-apps-wont-fullscreen-forever.html
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts :)
 

foxbat121

New member
Nov 14, 2012
837
0
0
Visit site
Windows Phone 8 is not limited to the Snapdragon S4 in any way.

Sure it is not limited to Snapdragon S4 but currently it is the ONLY SoC that is supported. OEMs can't use other processors until Microsoft says so and have driver ready. Same goes for screen resolutions. The Windows Phone 8 SDK already have resolutions like 1080p or even higher listed but currently OEMs can only make phones as high as 768p or 720p. They can not release 1080p WP8 phones until MS says so.

Windows Phone 8 resembles Windows 8.
They use driver files in the same format and same way.

Yes and no. The more I dig into WP8 SDK, the more I got disappointed. Only less than half of the Windows 8 APIs are supported in WP8 and many fasinating features of Windows 8 (like global search and sharing features) simply do not exist on WP8. Code written to Win8 can't be directly used on WP8 because of these differences. Obviously, the change is coming based on recent leak of a job posting. But I'm not sure it is for WP8, WP8.5 or WP9.

When it comes to phone hardware design, MS is imposing very strict restrictions to ensure the uniformaty of WP platform. Yes, the new platform can do a lot of things but it is not up to OEMs but rather MS has the say.
 

ChMar

New member
Mar 15, 2013
273
0
0
Visit site
Sure it is not limited to Snapdragon S4 but currently it is the ONLY SoC that is supported. OEMs can't use other processors until Microsoft says so and have driver ready. Same goes for screen resolutions. The Windows Phone 8 SDK already have resolutions like 1080p or even higher listed but currently OEMs can only make phones as high as 768p or 720p. They can not release 1080p WP8 phones until MS says so.

I believe that the set of resolution will remain up to 720p for windows phone 8. It was already a big change to developers to port their apps from one resolution to support 3 resolution so I don't believe there will be any change until this year fall if it will be any change at all.

I do believe that HTC announcement that they will make another windows 8 phone after GDR2 refers to this resolution issue. After they designed the HTC One I think all their flagship phones will sport the 1080p resolution and they wait for the os to support that resolution. It makes sense considering they get cheaper prices for components if they buy them in larger quantities and this must be an issue for them. So one can assume that in the future we will see 1080p and 2gb of ram support which requires changes in the sdk(memory capabilities in manifest and new screen layouts). I'm curious how this will be handled as this brings some fragmentation(512MB, 1GB, 2GB) to account for. And if in apps this is less of an issue it is for games because of assets resolution and performance.
 

a5cent

New member
Nov 3, 2011
6,622
0
0
Visit site
If you want to know why WP8 is a currently a "me too" gaming platform for high budget mobile titles, read Paul's articles on "How Microsoft can save Xbox gaming", they list the real factors that affect developers decisions as cited by the developers themselves, I don't remember seeing Microsoft's GPU choice in there.

Agree. We actually agree on almost everything, except that one issue, which is whether or not calling the Adreno 225 insufficient is premature.

I can't see how you can make any solid judgement on how games are going to perform on WP8, there simply aren't enough examples that truly push the platform to the limit.

I take "sufficient" to mean that games on WP8 devices can run at equivalent quality settings, at identical resolutions, and at the same frame rates as on the competitions devices, preferably noticeably better on all three counts (because that would be a great way to grab more market share).

First take a look at this GPU benchmark, comparing the MSM8960 (as in the L920 but tested on the SGS3) to the A6 (from the iP5). Notice that the iP5's GPU is often twice as fast in every relevant metric (ignore the onscreen tests, as the iP5 will always perform better in those tests due to having a lower resolution display).

You can rightfully argue that WP8 isn't burdened with many of Androids inefficient software stacks, but consider that games tend to bypass most of those inefficiencies. OpenGL provides Android developers a very direct (and exceedingly well optimized) route to their GPU, just as DirectX does for WP developers. I don't doubt that a L920 could better the SGS3 in this benchmark, but I don't see it getting anywhere close to the results spit out by the iP5. IMHO that difference is just to big to overcome with software engineering alone. This is disappointing, because both devices hit the market at roughly the same time.

I wouldn't argue my position in an academic paper, because as you say until you actually measure it nobody can really know, but still... that difference must be almost impossible to overcome, no?

BTW: really liking this thread... high quality discussion!
 

aaa6112

New member
Dec 6, 2012
544
0
0
Visit site
From personal experience, I can tell you that the difference between Adreno 225 and the upcoming Adreno 320/330 is night and day. Adreno 3xx is the first "post-AMD-mobile-graphics-division-acquisition" GPU and it is a beast! Adreno 305 is a watered down version in the Adreno 3xx series, so that doesn't count.
Edit: Not saying that Adreno 225 is incapable of handling graphics in the current games, but just excited for the next wave of flagship WP8 devices :)
 

foxbat121

New member
Nov 14, 2012
837
0
0
Visit site
1080p screen will no doubt require 2GB or RAM because of the added demand from the screen. But I suspect Microsoft won't allow higher than current 720p/768p resolution because the GPUs in current SoC can barely keep up with 720p. But for most apps (other than games), supporting of new resolutions are not that hard and in most cases, you don't even need to change your code much. Today, 768p screen maps exactly as 480p screen with 720p screen maps a little bit taller. 1080p screens will map exactly as 720p screen.

For games, most decent Android games are written in native C++, not Java, and using OpenGL. On WP8 side, decent games will be the same, written in native C++ and use Direct3D (but current WP9 is limited to Direct3D 9 level, not the newer Direct3D 11 as Windows 8 supports). So in many cases, Android games should perform similar to WP8 games if they optimized to each platform. So the real differentiate factor is the GPU power. Until Samsung Exynos 5's new GPU, most Android phone's GPU are so so and comparable to WP (they basically use the same SoC). It will be interesting to see if Microsoft will brace for the new GPU. But again, currently, that is only available from Samsung and it won't support LTE properly (so all US versions of Samsung GS4 will be Qualcomm SoC, not Exynos 5). So, until Qualcomm comes out with a equivalent GPU, we will still be short on GPU power.
 

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
322,908
Messages
2,242,875
Members
428,004
Latest member
hetb