IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is bad.

ChMar

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1080p screen will no doubt require 2GB or RAM because of the added demand from the screen. But I suspect Microsoft won't allow higher than current 720p/768p resolution because the GPUs in current SoC can barely keep up with 720p. But for most apps (other than games), supporting of new resolutions are not that hard and in most cases, you don't even need to change your code much. Today, 768p screen maps exactly as 480p screen with 720p screen maps a little bit taller. 1080p screens will map exactly as 720p screen.

For games, most decent Android games are written in native C++, not Java, and using OpenGL. On WP8 side, decent games will be the same, written in native C++ and use Direct3D (but current WP9 is limited to Direct3D 9 level, not the newer Direct3D 11 as Windows 8 supports). So in many cases, Android games should perform similar to WP8 games if they optimized to each platform. So the real differentiate factor is the GPU power. Until Samsung Exynos 5's new GPU, most Android phone's GPU are so so and comparable to WP (they basically use the same SoC). It will be interesting to see if Microsoft will brace for the new GPU. But again, currently, that is only available from Samsung and it won't support LTE properly (so all US versions of Samsung GS4 will be Qualcomm SoC, not Exynos 5). So, until Qualcomm comes out with a equivalent GPU, we will still be short on GPU power.

1080p won't match to 720p. The multiplication factor is 1.5 not an integer value. So you will notice distortion meaning you will need to support that resolution manually not because any layout problems but because of image degradation due to up scaling. So new sdk new apps and of course the 2gb of ram.

Yes it's true GPU on wp8 is dx 9.3 feature maxed. It may someday change who knows. But having the ability to have the same codebase for wp8 and windows 8 means the games now will support some form of graphics graceful degradation to accommodate less powerful hardware just like you would code for windows 8 devices. And to be honest I don't believe GPU is the bottleneck in current mobile games.

Most games are casual games and android being so fragmented those will remain the main category of games so no problem with the GPU here. And 3d games in current gen use a lot of offline light map generated textures and are less real-time concerning lighting effects so it's not about gpu power but about gpu fill rate. And I believe this is a good call considering the screen sizes of the display and the lack of good controls. I don't see graphic hungry fps games becoming popular on mobile phones. So you remain with 3rd person graphics rich games that with good level design you can make due with a less powerful GPU(make it so that you have a lower visibility range so less objects less GPU calls).
 
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Sure it is not limited to Snapdragon S4 but currently it is the ONLY SoC that is supported. OEMs can't use other processors until Microsoft says so and have driver ready. Same goes for screen resolutions. The Windows Phone 8 SDK already have resolutions like 1080p or even higher listed but currently OEMs can only make phones as high as 768p or 720p. They can not release 1080p WP8 phones until MS says so.



Yes and no. The more I dig into WP8 SDK, the more I got disappointed. Only less than half of the Windows 8 APIs are supported in WP8 and many fasinating features of Windows 8 (like global search and sharing features) simply do not exist on WP8. Code written to Win8 can't be directly used on WP8 because of these differences. Obviously, the change is coming based on recent leak of a job posting. But I'm not sure it is for WP8, WP8.5 or WP9.

When it comes to phone hardware design, MS is imposing very strict restrictions to ensure the uniformaty of WP platform. Yes, the new platform can do a lot of things but it is not up to OEMs but rather MS has the say.

That was a great analysis. However, I happen to be referring to code that is much more important than the SDK code. It's not easy for most people to read and understand because of how long it takes to understand such a little fragment of it haha.

And you pretty much nailed that closing statement. MS has the control, and that's exactly how it should be. The OEMs do need control of their own, but the hardware is made for the software and not the other way around. Microsoft is the only one who knows how things have to be on both the software side AND hardware side for everything to work correctly. Android's weakness was giving OEM's too much control. And Apple's weakness is simply being less experienced than Microsoft at what both companies do. They create computing experiences. :)
 

ChMar

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That was a great analysis. However, I happen to be referring to code that is much more important than the SDK code. It's not easy for most people to read and understand because of how long it takes to understand such a little fragment of it haha.

And you pretty much nailed that closing statement. MS has the control, and that's exactly how it should be. The OEMs do need control of their own, but the hardware is made for the software and not the other way around. Microsoft is the only one who knows how things have to be on both the software side AND hardware side for everything to work correctly. Android's weakness was giving OEM's too much control. And Apple's weakness is simply being less experienced than Microsoft at what both companies do. They create computing experiences. :)

SO True :). But for the average consumer that spec war going in the android arena makes the hardware driving without software needs which in turn leads to less software innovations especially in productivity apps area.
 

foxbat121

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1080p won't match to 720p. The multiplication factor is 1.5 not an integer value. So you will notice distortion meaning you will need to support that resolution manually not because any layout problems but because of image degradation due to up scaling. So new sdk new apps and of course the 2gb of ram.
.

800x480 (480p) is the base. With zoom factor of 1.6, it nicely transforms to 1280x768, or 768p. Both have the same aspect ratio. Nothing will be stretched. Existing apps don't need to be redesigned because it is a simple zoom.

MS chose to use zoom factor of 1.5 for 1280x720 or 720p resolution, Since it has a different aspect radio than the base 480p and 768p, MS don't use stretch but leave 720p screen display taller with extra space vertically. Apps need to be properly designed to fill the extra space.


1080p or 1920x1080 will have the same aspect ratio as 1280x720. So the final zoom factor will be 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, with extra vertical space. So, an app written for 720p screen (remember it is different than 768p screen) can easily zoom into 1080p without distortion. But apps written only for 480p will have the same extra space vertically.

These scalings are done at hardware level. Apps are designed to draw into a logical coordinate system, not directly to screen anyway. It already happens today on 768p and 720p screens.
 

a5cent

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These scalings are done at hardware level. Apps are designed to draw into a logical coordinate system, not directly to screen anyway. It already happens today on 768p and 720p screens.

Scaling is actually done by the OS in software, not hardware. WP handsets do come with a hardware scalar, but this is used only in DirectX enabled apps, not when going through the conventional UI composition and rendering stacks. Not terribly important, but just wanted to through it out there.

I'm also going to make a prediction... when the WP hardware chassis spec is evolved to incorporate a new display resolution, the spec will simultaneously drop support for two others. This chassis spec will support 1280x720p and 1920x1080 resolutions but drop support for 800x480 and 1280x768.
 

foxbat121

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I wouldn't say that. 800x480 support is very vital for Nokia's survival. Nokia is always known to making money in mass produce cheap low end phones in emerging markets. And from what they are doing recently, they are betting on low end WP8 phones, not high end ones. Besides, currently there is a lot apps don't even support 1280x720 properly.

I'm not so sure the scaling is only done at OS software level. The desktop OS already done this in hardware. Giving WP8 OS core comes from Win8, I can't imagine why they don't use hardware capabilities.
 

ChMar

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800x480 (480p) is the base. With zoom factor of 1.6, it nicely transforms to 1280x768, or 768p. Both have the same aspect ratio. Nothing will be stretched. Existing apps don't need to be redesigned because it is a simple zoom.

MS chose to use zoom factor of 1.5 for 1280x720 or 720p resolution, Since it has a different aspect radio than the base 480p and 768p, MS don't use stretch but leave 720p screen display taller with extra space vertically. Apps need to be properly designed to fill the extra space.


1080p or 1920x1080 will have the same aspect ratio as 1280x720. So the final zoom factor will be 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, with extra vertical space. So, an app written for 720p screen (remember it is different than 768p screen) can easily zoom into 1080p without distortion. But apps written only for 480p will have the same extra space vertically.

These scalings are done at hardware level. Apps are designed to draw into a logical coordinate system, not directly to screen anyway. It already happens today on 768p and 720p screens.

You are correct about the scaling. And as I stated previously I'm not talking about layout scale which is only a problem in 720p because of extra height. I'm talking about picture rescale and for some apps that is a problem. I had to change some apps because of banding in some logo who used gradients(not my apps) and who didn't scale right and the noise added to them was not coping with the banding anymore. You will get noise in images whether you upscale or downscale them no matter what so you need support for a new resolution in the SDK.

As for scaling the layout coordinates scaling must be done by os and not hardware, images being rendered using directx anyway in both windows 8 and windows phone 8.

I'm happy that Microsoft chooses a 1 year os upgrade route. Many of the windows phone apps are not made in house and are outsourced and having to do work for them too frequently is costly for all parties involved.
 

rimlover

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

I will chime in to say that the Adreno 225 GPU in the S4 is crap. It's way behind the curve, and for "next-gen" Windows Phone 8 devices to release using it disappoints me because they're "highly regarded" because they're cheap (compared to the other SOCs).

When I say Adreno 225 is crap, I'm speaking to the fact that we have basically received a chipset that is already outdated (by mobile standards of today)...

i said the same thing in the crackberry forum as i was thinking of getting a z10 haha. ya i completely agree with you there.
 

rimlover

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

I can only disagree to the statement that it is a big mistake to only allow one SOC. With this given, WP8 only has to be coded for one processor, the same that we can also see on apple devices - software designed for hardware, resulting in higher speeds. In contrast, android is pretty slow for its Killer hardware - it's always fun to see a Galaxy S2 lag when an old 3GS has no problems at all (dualcore 1.2Ghz vs 600Mhz Singlecore). imo, this step was very important, since the performance in combination to the hardware on windows phone is really high.

why is it a mistake if it's 1 SOC? as you said, this is a similar to what apple is doing which is a good thing. developers (including microsoft) have only 1 SOC to code for so they can make apps that are extremely efficient for that specific hardware platform, where as the opposite is seen in android. android developers not only have to figure out the brand of the SOC (tegra, exynos, mediated etc), but the specific models as well? that's WAY to much variation hence why most apps aren't written as efficiently. the lack of efficiency is what leads android to require these INSANE numbers of RAM, cores, speeds, etc (if an app is written efficiently, you don't need a 2 ghz quad core A-15 with 2 gb ram to run it). the only thing i would agree with that's on android is the GPU (which is starting to catch up to the iphone). they're coming out with tri-core gpu setups (like gs4 with the MP544+3 similar to iphone 5) and extra which is always a need for games.
 

a5cent

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I wouldn't say that. 800x480 support is very vital for Nokia's survival. Nokia is always known to making money in mass produce cheap low end phones in emerging markets. And from what they are doing recently, they are betting on low end WP8 phones, not high end ones. Besides, currently there is a lot apps don't even support 1280x720 properly.

I'm not so sure the scaling is only done at OS software level. The desktop OS already done this in hardware. Giving WP8 OS core comes from Win8, I can't imagine why they don't use hardware capabilities.

Well, I suspect that WP8(Blue+) and WP9 devices will coexist for a while, just like WP7 and WP8 devices do today. That is why I don't believe that such a move would prevent Nokia from offering cheap devices. Nokia can continue to sell cheaper WP8 devices with 800x480 panels. Also, there will come a time when 1280x720 panels don't cost more than 800x480 panels do today, and that time isn't too far off.

In regard to the sub-optimal support for 1280x720 resolutions, yes, those are all WP7 apps, made by developers who don't have the time to support two different versions of the same app, or don't want to make that investment only for the sake of getting rid of those black bars. However, we are talking about a point in time that is yet a ways off. By then, it is unlikely we will have many actively developed WP7 apps left in the market. Any app that gets a real WP8 port will support that resolution just fine.
 

foxbat121

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You are correct about the scaling. And as I stated previously I'm not talking about layout scale which is only a problem in 720p because of extra height. I'm talking about picture rescale and for some apps that is a problem. I had to change some apps because of banding in some logo who used gradients(not my apps) and who didn't scale right and the noise added to them was not coping with the banding anymore. You will get noise in images whether you upscale or downscale them no matter what so you need support for a new resolution in the SDK.

Got it. I was simply talking about vector graphics on app layouts, not bitmaps. For bitmaps, you will have to make one for each resolution for best results.

WPF rendering, which is what Sliverlight and WP apps originated from, on desktop has long being hardware accelerated using DirectX. Scaling and transformation on that do take advantage of the GPU hardware.
 

ChMar

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

why is it a mistake if it's 1 SOC? as you said, this is a similar to what apple is doing which is a good thing. developers (including microsoft) have only 1 SOC to code for so they can make apps that are extremely efficient for that specific hardware platform, where as the opposite is seen in android. android developers not only have to figure out the brand of the SOC (tegra, exynos, mediated etc), but the specific models as well? that's WAY to much variation hence why most apps aren't written as efficiently. the lack of efficiency is what leads android to require these INSANE numbers of RAM, cores, speeds, etc (if an app is written efficiently, you don't need a 2 ghz quad core A-15 with 2 gb ram to run it). the only thing i would agree with that's on android is the GPU (which is starting to catch up to the iphone). they're coming out with tri-core gpu setups (like gs4 with the MP544+3 similar to iphone 5) and extra which is always a need for games.

OS and the .net takes care of cpu differences. So you won't have to optimize for apps. So lagging in android is not about different CPUs it's because of it's multitasking and because it lets the coders be as lazy as they want(and we all know lazy is good) and indulge in their single threaded background and foreground madness.

And don't forget this is mobile world not desktop world and it's crazy race in gpu power. There are no AAA games for phones and will never be(battery issues). So as long as the larger audience is running on older architecture there will be no games that will bottleneck the GPU and a very small percentage of 3d intensive games. I believe the current rendering middleware for smartphones are in their infancies and will not mature in the next 2 years to even allow for cases of GPU bottlenecks.

Look at rage for iphone. I was expecting to give iphone a run for it's money but ended up being a shooter on rail with complete control given to level designers so you could tune the levels as to never get in a position of gpu issues. So it's not the games driving the spec race as on desktop it's just pure marketing and the need to cope with coders laziness for the android.
 

foxbat121

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Well, I suspect that WP8(Blue+) and WP9 devices will coexist for a while, just like WP7 and WP8 devices do today. That is why I don't believe that such a move would prevent Nokia from offering cheap devices. Nokia can continue to sell cheaper WP8 devices with 800x480 panels. Also, there will come a time when 1280x720 panels don't cost more than 800x480 panels do today, and that time isn't too far off.

For most ppl, 720p screen has little or no benefit. So, you will always have a market where ppl prefer save money than chasing specs. But in the mean time, they do want whatever new features offered in new OS. Even with the lower cost of 720p screen, 480p screen could be even cheaper.
In regard to the sub-optimal support for 1280x720 resolutions, yes, those are all WP7 apps, made by developers who don't have the time to support two different versions of the same app, or don't want to make that investment only for the sake of getting rid of those black bars. However, we are talking about a point in time that is yet a ways off. By then, it is unlikely we will have many actively developed WP7 apps left in the market. Any app that gets a real WP8 port will support that resolution just fine.

As explained above, it is not just WP7 apps. Apps that use bitmap backgrounds need to be redesigned. There are quite a few WP8 apps, even the popular ones, currently don't support 720p.
 

foxbat121

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

OS and the .net takes care of cpu differences. So you won't have to optimize for apps.

That's not true at all. Games are largely written in native C++, not .NET. Optimization is still quite important.

All WP8 apps are actually compiled into native code by Microsoft when you submit the app. There isn't a JIT compiler on WP8 like on WP7. In theory, it should results in better app startup performance.
 

ChMar

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For most ppl, 720p screen has little or no benefit. So, you will always have a market where ppl prefer save money than chasing specs. But in the mean time, they do want whatever new features offered in new OS. Even with the lower cost of 720p screen, 480p screen could be even cheaper.

The 720p screen does not bring any benefits true but it's good for ppi screen size stats, marketing and inoculating the idea that your phone is hd ready just like tv sets are. 480p screens have the added advantage of lower ram needs. And in this regard I'm sure Microsoft will not bulge and the correlation between resolution and ram available will remain in stone. I highly doubt that Microsoft(or Blackberry) will ever try to raise the specifications bar above other platforms and will instead just adapt to what competition is doing. Android gain it's market share not from high end devices but from the lower ones with lousy specs. In my country there are a lot of android devices given for free by operators now that sport 320pixel resolutions and 3'' screens and are becoming the first smartphones for many consumers.

The good part is 1080p will cap the resolution war and in the end will only have 4 resolutions to work with.
 

rimlover

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

Incorrect. No way MSFT only coded wp8 to use an S4 processor. They would not be that shortsighted. Though I guess it would give them plenty of proof to tell customers that they need to upgrade to a new device to be able to get wp9 on their next phone. "The hardware is the only thing keeping WP8 from being ported to WP7x devices....BLAH BLAH BLAH." "We had to re-write the kernel for wp9 and that kernel will not work on the older processors."

they already re-wrote the kernel to where it's similar to windows so that can't be an excuse this time. i doubt they will do that anyways because of the repercussions that are attached with that. its similar to the saying 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me', meaning that a lot of people wouldn't trust MS anymore and ditch the os. i just hope they do something about the update process and make it a lot more coherent.
 

a5cent

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

OS and the .net takes care of cpu differences.<snipped>

For games, the processing power of each individual component does become important. Is the GPU running ahead of the CPU? Is the CPU running ahead of the GPU? Can you afford to do a bit more AI processing, or do you need to get back to preparing the next scene so the GPU doesn't run out of work? Yes, I'm talking about fast paced twitch games, like car racing, but for these games such differences in performance aren't abstracted away by the OS! This is one of the big benefits of console development! The existence of a precisely defined hardware spec is what allows developers to tickle as much out of consoles as they do. Current consoles are almost a decade old... dinosaurs of the computing realm... yet what they offer doesn't look that much worse than what we get on the most high-end PCs. Often times, the difference comes down to little more than texture resolution, display resolution and FPS. That is worth something! Particularly on devices that are so resource constrained as smartphones. It would be very interesting to see what devs can do with a WP device, given the same luxuries that console developers enjoy.

At this point, from a game developers point of view, WP is not entirely, but pretty close to being a console, whereas Android is more like the PC jungle. That is a good thing, and if MS has any sense, they will put effort into keeping it that way. It's about balancing the needs of all stakeholders and giving WP an edge in at least one area consumers are interested in.
 
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ChMar

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

That's not true at all. Games are largely written in native C++, not .NET. Optimization is still quite important.

All WP8 apps are actually compiled into native code by Microsoft when you submit the app. There isn't a JIT compiler on WP8 like on WP7. In theory, it should results in better app startup performance.

.Net apps are not compiled in native code on the cloud. It's not a complete ngen process. The MSIL is precompiled into another intermediate language with some inline CPU instructions but you still have the jit. I don't see the jit going away completely as it does provide benefits.

I work as a game programmer and games are being written in C++ but you don't get much space for optimization beside the usual care you must take. Usual threading is done(api issues). ASM inlining in game code is gone for years as it was not providing any benefits and a lot of old desktop memory optimizations are gone in windows 8 and windows phone 8 (no api for custom pagination support). So beside caching in memory and taking care of memory fragmentation you won't have much room for improvements. And since xbox360 load/store issues people got used to how to order their instructions. So there is no issue here with multiple CPU supported by the os not even in case of the games.
 

ChMar

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

For games, the processing power of each individual component does become important. Is the GPU running ahead of the CPU? Is the CPU running ahead of the GPU? Can you afford to do a bit more AI processing, or do you need to get back to preparing the next scene so the GPU doesn't run out of work? Yes, I'm talking about fast paced twitch games, like car racing, but for these games such differences in performance aren't abstracted away by the OS! This is one of the big benefits of console development! The existence of a precisely defined hardware spec which to program against, is what allows developers to tickle as much out of consoles that they do. Current consoles are almost a decade old... dinosaurs of the computing realm... yet what they offer doesn't look that much worse than what we get on the most high-end PCs. Often times, the difference comes down to little more than texture resolution, display resolution and FPS. That is worth something! Particularly on devices that are so resource constrained as smartphones. It would be very interesting to see what devs can do with a WP device, given the same luxuries that console developers enjoy.

At this point, from a game developers point of view, WP is not entirely, but pretty close to being a console, whereas Android is more like PC jungle. That is a good thing, and if MS has any sense, they will put effort into keeping it that way. It's about balancing the needs of all stakeholders and giving WP an edge in at least one area consumers are interested in.

As I said I work as a game programmer and the idea that consoles because of their balance are almost on par with modern computer even given their age is just a myth. There are huge differences in performance(especially CPU) but a game on PC will not look much better than a game on current gen console not because of the code but because of the artists. There is not enough sales on pc to make higher resolution or higher polygonal models so you get the same models as on the console and bigger texture since you have more memory and that's all. It's just to save costs. And also you gain a bigger market on pc this way. No one will make a new ai(or even a more precise physics simulation) for pc even if though there you can spare cpu cycles for it. As for the balance GPU and CPU can be made to run in parallel without much hassle(you just render one frame behind).
 

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