IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is bad.

a5cent

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For most ppl, 720p screen has little or no benefit. So, you will always have a market where ppl prefer save money than chasing specs. But in the mean time, they do want whatever new features offered in new OS. Even with the lower cost of 720p screen, 480p screen could be even cheaper.
At some point economies of scale are more important. Once you start producing hundreds of millions of these 720p panels a year, I doubt any significant price difference will remain. Surely the price difference for the materials of similarly sized panels are almost irrelevant compared to operational expenditures and equipment and fab amortisation?

As explained above, it is not just WP7 apps. Apps that use bitmap backgrounds need to be redesigned. There are quite a few WP8 apps, even the popular ones, currently don't support 720p.
I'll give you that. I thought you were talking only about the black bars.
 

AngryNil

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If Microsoft wants to keep Surface RT going, Tegra 4 and Snapdragon 800 are fine choices. I think they should go with Atom, though.
 

ChMar

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

they already re-wrote the kernel to where it's similar to windows so that can't be an excuse this time. i doubt they will do that anyways because of the repercussions that are attached with that. its similar to the saying 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me', meaning that a lot of people wouldn't trust MS anymore and ditch the os. i just hope they do something about the update process and make it a lot more coherent.

Microsoft was completely right to ditch the old windows phone 7. They never said will get upgraded and I believe all OEMs were happy about that. You spend money on design and on engineers to make a product and you expect profit. Now you have to have a team of people working for the firmware upgrades making new drivers and run tests on multiple devices so you make your sold windows phone 7 accept a different os without problems. This way you make no profit. No profit for oems no future for the platforms. I strongly believe that even if Microsoft tried to persuade oems to update their handsets to wp8 they would have refused. Better ditch the old and start designing a new phone with less problems.
 

foxbat121

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At some point economies of scale are more important. Once you start producing hundreds of millions of these 720p panels a year, I doubt any significant price difference will remain. Surely the price difference for the materials of similarly sized panels are almost irrelevant compared to operational expenditures and equipment and fab amortisation?

As someone else mentioned above, it is not just screen itself. With a lower res screen comes with lower end CPU and less memory and all add up to really cheap phones. Nokia used to sell phone for around $100 retail. And all indications are, they want to go back to that route.

I'll give you that. I thought you were talking only about the black bars.
WP8 apps that don't support 720p resolution will still have the black bars. That's why there are many threads out there from HTX 8x owners to collect a list of apps that DO support 720p.
 

foxbat121

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If Microsoft wants to keep Surface RT going, Tegra 4 and Snapdragon 800 are fine choices. I think they should go with Atom, though.

I will take my fanless battery sipping RT any day over hot running battery sucking ATOM tablet. It simply doesn't make sense to me. If I want a larger, AC tethered tablet, I'd just go with any laptop.

Intel has been lagging way behind in tablet processor space. ATOM is not the answer yet. I'll reserve my judgment for the new intel chip coming later this year which promises x86 speed with ARM power consumption.
 

jrdatrackstar1223

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Lets take a concrete example of the Adreno 225's limits, with a scenario everyone can test...

Download (unless you've purchased) The Dark Knight Rises. Play through the first stages where there is a lot going on on the screen (the city), with lightning, rain, etc; notice just how laggy the game is. When you get to a stage where Batman is in the sewers, the game is somehow magically 30 fps smooth, in the same game....

Why is this...? Because the GPU couldn't handle the graphic intensive parts of the game that featured dynamic lighting, shading, etc, without slowing the game down to render it. The point being made is that, even with optimizations made, there is a physical limitation of the 225, and it doesn't take much to exploit it. This can be remedied by reducing the graphics. Take, for example, Modern Combat 4 on Android. If you play the game on a Nexus 10 vs a Nexus 4, you'll notice that one has more detailed graphics and such, with the reason being that the game was optimized for the GPU it was running, showing developers recognize that the GPU simply couldn't push the high end graphics. This should've been done with the games we've received in the past few weeks but it wasn't, and as a result, these games run with higher graphics and slower. Perhaps they tried to show richer graphics to help the lack of high end games on the platform.

Whatever the case, there IS a physical limitation on the GPU of current WP8 devices that have basically made them obsolete in the gaming department from day 1 (high end games)...
 

AngryNil

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I will take my fanless battery sipping RT any day over hot running battery sucking ATOM tablet. It simply doesn't make sense to me. If I want a larger, AC tethered tablet, I'd just go with any laptop.

Intel has been lagging way behind in tablet processor space. ATOM is not the answer yet. I'll reserve my judgment for the new intel chip coming later this year which promises x86 speed with ARM power consumption.
I'm sorry, I don't think you've been following Atom very closely.

Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 Review | Windows 8 Tablet Reviews

Atom Windows 8 tablets are far superior today to Windows RT tablets. Come Q4 this year, game over in my eye.

If it has an atom, then it isn't Windows RT ;)
I'm saying that in my opinion, they should scrap RT and have Atom as the $500 wide consumer push.
 

ChMar

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Lets take a concrete example of the Adreno 225's limits, with a scenario everyone can test...

Download (unless you've purchased) The Dark Knight Rises. Play through the first stages where there is a lot going on on the screen (the city), with lightning, rain, etc; notice just how laggy the game is. When you get to a stage where Batman is in the sewers, the game is somehow magically 30 fps smooth, in the same game....

Why is this...? Because the GPU couldn't handle the graphic intensive parts of the game that featured dynamic lighting, shading, etc, without slowing the game down to render it. The point being made is that, even with optimizations made, there is a physical limitation of the 225, and it doesn't take much to exploit it. This can be remedied by reducing the graphics. Take, for example, Modern Combat 4 on Android. If you play the game on a Nexus 10 vs a Nexus 4, you'll notice that one has more detailed graphics and such, with the reason being that the game was optimized for the GPU it was running, showing developers recognize that the GPU simply couldn't push the high end graphics. This should've been done with the games we've received in the past few weeks but it wasn't, and as a result, these games run with higher graphics and slower. Perhaps they tried to show richer graphics to help the lack of high end games on the platform.

Whatever the case, there IS a physical limitation on the GPU of current WP8 devices that have basically made them obsolete in the gaming department from day 1 (high end games)...

Do you have proof that it does not lags on other platforms? It may be because there are too many polygons on the screen at one time but this could affect other platforms as well. It may be because of memory limitations: WP8 has 380MB available to an app for use while iphone is not limited in any way(some guidelines are to not cross 50% of available memory) so there may be lod models missing to mitigate the polygon count on the screen.
 

a5cent

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

As I said I work as a game programmer and the idea that consoles because of their balance are almost on par with modern computer even given their age is just a myth.

I agree, but that isn't related to the point I was trying to get across ;-)

I'll try differently. Games are either GPU or CPU bound. Using the video settings menu, PC gamers can/must often choose where they want that bottleneck. Console gamers don't have to choose, because experts are able to make that choice for them. In making that choice, console developers are afforded the freedom to distribute their processing tasks however they want, across the consoles precisely defined and standardized hardware configuration. That step is an optimization step, because the processing tasks are designed and tailored to run well on that particular hardware.

Should smartphone developers not also be afforded that same freedom? If yes, then that requires a certain amount of standardization, because you can't distribute processing tasks amongst an undefined hardware configuration. But that is all Android provides... just like the PC, the hardware configuration is almost entirely undefined. If you must develop a game that runs great on a low end quad-core, a high end 4+4 core, a mid range dual-core, and a whole host of differently spec'ed GPU's, then the typical route is to code against the lowest common denominator... which is exactly what is happening with Android today, meaning those with high-end hardware aren't getting half of what their devices are actually capable of, just like today's PC gamers... similar problem, similar syndromes. No?

My point was that MS is trying to leverage these same benefits, that are inherent to consoles, for WP, at least to a degree.

There are huge differences in performance(especially CPU) but a game on PC will not look much better than a game on current gen console not because of the code but because of the artists.

True, but how to you think this would behave if a new console generation was released, say, every 18 months?
 
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rimlover

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Agree. We actually agree on almost everything, except that one issue, which is whether or not calling the Adreno 225 insufficient is premature.



I take "sufficient" to mean that games on WP8 devices can run at equivalent quality settings, at identical resolutions, and at the same frame rates as on the competitions devices, preferably noticeably better on all three counts (because that would be a great way to grab more market share).

First take a look at this GPU benchmark, comparing the MSM8960 (as in the L920 but tested on the SGS3) to the A6 (from the iP5). Notice that the iP5's GPU is often twice as fast in every relevant metric (ignore the onscreen tests, as the iP5 will always perform better in those tests due to having a lower resolution display).

You can rightfully argue that WP8 isn't burdened with many of Androids inefficient software stacks, but consider that games tend to bypass most of those inefficiencies. OpenGL provides Android developers a very direct (and exceedingly well optimized) route to their GPU, just as DirectX does for WP developers. I don't doubt that a L920 could better the SGS3 in this benchmark, but I don't see it getting anywhere close to the results spit out by the iP5. IMHO that difference is just to big to overcome with software engineering alone. This is disappointing, because both devices hit the market at roughly the same time.

I wouldn't argue my position in an academic paper, because as you say until you actually measure it nobody can really know, but still... that difference must be almost impossible to overcome, no?

BTW: really liking this thread... high quality discussion!

why would you ignore the onscreen test? if anything you should be ignoring the offscreen test. on screen is what matters to the consumer at the end of the day. i don't care how many pixels you can push @ 1080 but if it lags on the phone screen that's what matters. also, (i said this numerous times) apple has the right approach. the most taxing application require GPU performance not CPU. apple put dual & tri graphics cards since the 4 or 4s i believe. the only other manufacturer that i see that is FINALLY realizing this is surprisingly samsung. they're introducing the same GPU in there s4 as in the iphone 5.

i like this thread to. props to the op.
 

a5cent

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As someone else mentioned above, it is not just screen itself. With a lower res screen comes with lower end CPU and less memory and all add up to really cheap phones. Nokia used to sell phone for around $100 retail. And all indications are, they want to go back to that route.

No. It's the OS that defines RAM and GPU configurations. Although WP7 devices with a resolution of 800x480 were shipped with 256 MB RAM, that RAM configuration isn't allowed for WP8 devices! Nokia can't just choose to put in a cheaper GPU either, because the WP8 chassis spec states exactly which SoCs are acceptable. Choosing an 800x480 resolution panel for a WP8 device gives Nokia exactly those savings. Nothing more.
 

ChMar

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

I agree, but that isn't related to the point I was trying to get across ;-)

I'll try differently. Games are either GPU or CPU bound. Using the video settings menu, PC gamers can/must often choose where they want that bottleneck. Console gamers don't have to choose, because experts are able to make that choice for them. In making that choice, console developers are afforded the freedom to distribute their processing tasks however they want, across the consoles precisely defined and standardized hardware configuration. That step is an optimization step, because the processing tasks are designed and tailored to run well on that particular hardware.

Games should not be CPU or GPU bound period. I can tell you lots of stories from making games for consoles. And your hair will rise on your hands. Having hardware fixed and so balancing the workload is also a myth. The idea is different. All console manufacturers impose some criteria on the games that runs on their hardware. On Xbox 360 you can't have longer load times than 30 seconds. This is measured on dev consoles and do not account from lag that may incur during reading faulty dvds. You can't go sub 30fps. It's true that those rules are less enforced for AAA games than for smaller dev companies but the point is that those standards means you cant ship half baked games. Is those standards that allows for good performance. On PC hardware there are no rules.

In making games you always make the fps stable and clear memory leaks at the end and this is why you may get some lags in some areas. On a race game for consoles(Harley Davidson brand) an idiot of a level designer hid a 1 million polygon sphere under the road so he could have from where to shave polygons when the hunt for constant fps begin. Guess what the idiot forgot about it and so the entire programming division spend 2 days looking for the problem. Hands with 300,000 being draw just because the modeler was lazy and didn't optimize the model and so on.

In the end I know of only one game(not AAA unfortunately) that implemented a fps failsafe mechanism. If fps get fluctuating(this is the lag you see, you don't perceive low fps you perceive the changes in fps) it reduces the fill area(renders to a lower resolution texture and blitting on the framebuffer) until the fps jigsaw passes. 3D hungry games are a complex business depending much more on the level designers and artists than on the programmers.
 

a5cent

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why would you ignore the onscreen test? <snipped> The on screen is what matters to the consumer at the end of the day.

I agree. The point is that we are currently discussing the drawbacks and merits specifically of the Adreno 225 GPU. We aren't discussing particular devices, or at least I'm not. ;-)

The onscreen performance doesn't really interest me that much until that benchmark site also lists a high-end WP8 device. Until then, everything is theoretical.
 

ChMar

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

Hey ChMar, I so want to respond to your post, but I really need to get some shut eye. Been very interesting so far. Hope to see you guys later!

Yeah it was a good discussion :). But I too got to go to bed. So we will continue it some other time
 

rimlover

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

OS and the .net takes care of cpu differences. So you won't have to optimize for apps. So lagging in android is not about different CPUs it's because of it's multitasking and because it lets the coders be as lazy as they want(and we all know lazy is good) and indulge in their single threaded background and foreground madness.

And don't forget this is mobile world not desktop world and it's crazy race in gpu power. There are no AAA games for phones and will never be(battery issues). So as long as the larger audience is running on older architecture there will be no games that will bottleneck the GPU and a very small percentage of 3d intensive games. I believe the current rendering middleware for smartphones are in their infancies and will not mature in the next 2 years to even allow for cases of GPU bottlenecks.

Look at rage for iphone. I was expecting to give iphone a run for it's money but ended up being a shooter on rail with complete control given to level designers so you could tune the levels as to never get in a position of gpu issues. So it's not the games driving the spec race as on desktop it's just pure marketing and the need to cope with coders laziness for the android.

pure. genius. i re-read that twice. amazing answer. to be honest yes i was aware of all the points that you have mentioned. there isn't a point in coding a game/program for only 1% of people that have the very top spec-ed phones. with that being said, wouldn't a tri-core GPU be less power intensive (depending on how much it could be throttled down, of course) because it can finish tasks quicker and power down quicker?
 

ChMar

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

pure. genius. i re-read that twice. amazing answer. to be honest yes i was aware of all the points that you have mentioned. there isn't a point in coding a game/program for only 1% of people that have the very top spec-ed phones. with that being said, wouldn't a tri-core GPU be less power intensive (depending on how much it could be throttled down, of course) because it can finish tasks quicker and power down quicker?

I need some sleep as I been working all night(6:02am here) and tomorrow when I get up I'll tell you more about this(taking in account my experience in making games on various consoles)
 

rimlover

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Re: IMHO the Qualcomm S4 is crap.

Microsoft was completely right to ditch the old windows phone 7. They never said will get upgraded and I believe all OEMs were happy about that. You spend money on design and on engineers to make a product and you expect profit. Now you have to have a team of people working for the firmware upgrades making new drivers and run tests on multiple devices so you make your sold windows phone 7 accept a different os without problems. This way you make no profit. No profit for oems no future for the platforms. I strongly believe that even if Microsoft tried to persuade oems to update their handsets to wp8 they would have refused. Better ditch the old and start designing a new phone with less problems.

that was a response to a comment about the possibility of wp8 devices not being able to get upgraded to wp9.

you're looking at the company point of view, where as i'm looking at the consumer point of view. it's not logical to expect every person to upgrade their phones once a year. iphone users have a 3 year guarantee (twice as much as MS 18 months). the 3 years stems from the fact that apple sells 3 generation old hardware (iphone 5, 4s, and 4). so if ms ditches WP8 users by forcing an upgrade to the new os (the way they did with wp7 to wp8), i personally will ditch wp platform. i need to make sure that the OS will be supported for more than 1 year (especially considering i bought my 920 like 3 weeks ago). by support i don't mean just to add similar external looks to make it look like wp8, i mean have the same core os.
 

rimlover

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I will take my fanless battery sipping RT any day over hot running battery sucking ATOM tablet. It simply doesn't make sense to me. If I want a larger, AC tethered tablet, I'd just go with any laptop.

Intel has been lagging way behind in tablet processor space. ATOM is not the answer yet. I'll reserve my judgment for the new intel chip coming later this year which promises x86 speed with ARM power consumption.

most atom tablets have longer battery life than the arm tablets. explanation need. the dell xps 10 has a 30wh battery and lasts 9:02 hours and the surface with a 31.5 wh lasts 9:36.

Microsoft Surface with Windows RT review
Dell Latitude 10 review: a business-friendly Windows tablet with great battery life
 

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