05-14-2013 12:10 PM
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  1. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Rather than rehash so many things and end up making such a huge post, I'll keep it brief by using a link instead. As long as MS addresses most of the most frequently mentioned shortcomings in this thread, as well as this review, then they'll be on much better footing going forward. I know Daniel posted a similar "What's needed" article here, so this is another similar one to draw from as well. Many of the pointers in it are actually what finalized my decision to take a pass on WP this year because I was pretty close to picking one up last week.
    03-29-2013 03:21 AM
  2. ohgood's Avatar
    I want to say hacking my post up is bad forums etiquette. In doing so in this situation you have changed the questions. For example you have taken questions 4 & 5 out of context and confused yourself. The "We" I am referring to is the Windows Phone community as a whole not just Microsoft. The "Why" in question 4 should go with question 3. If you are to quote someone you should leave the quote in tact so you don't change the context.

    All in you make some good points. I don't agree with all of them but point on point.
    posting seven or eight questions in one post, and asking for explanations also, is asking for a numbered list of answers. no 'hacking up' was involved. you're taking it personally.

    we aren't supposed to agree when you ask for opinions, that would negate the entire point of discussion of opinions.
    03-29-2013 06:27 AM
  3. Dave Blake's Avatar
    posting seven or eight questions in one post, and asking for explanations also, is asking for a numbered list of answers. no 'hacking up' was involved. you're taking it personally.

    we aren't supposed to agree when you ask for opinions, that would negate the entire point of discussion of opinions.
    Who is taking it personal?

    Hacking up someone's post and changing the flavor of the content then putting it in a quote marker is bad forums etiquette.
    03-29-2013 06:46 AM
  4. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    Alright you two, let's just turn off the cooker before it does turn into personal attacks! I don't want to have to clean up a mess.
    03-29-2013 07:22 AM
  5. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Gravity guy 2.
    I saw that one. How about a Subway Surfers 2, a Temple Run 3 or some version of Angry Birds? Stuff like that wouldn't hurt.
    03-29-2013 07:38 AM
  6. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Many of the pointers in it are actually what finalized my decision to take a pass on WP this year because I was pretty close to picking one up last week.
    I'm curious...what OS and device are you currently using? What got you to look at WP8 initially?
    03-29-2013 07:45 AM
  7. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    Hardware-wise, you could say that Windows Phone is going almost nowhere.
    Yes, I'm serious about that statement. How many apps only work on devices that have 1 GB of RAM? How many phones are there with 4 or 8 GB of internal storage? In this respect, Windows Phone is going absolutely nowhere. Largely because the OEMs are adhering to the standards of yesteryear (for starters, my N95 8GB was release a around a half-decade ago.)
    However, if you talk about features and how unique the phones are, Windows Phones (excluding the ATIVs) blow everyone else out of the water. Yes, even the Nexus 4, which includes wireless charging. Yes, even the HTC One, with its OIS. Yes, even the iPhone (it's a given.)
    Software-wise, that's a different story.
    WP8 is more or less technical update. And, it's based on the NT Kernel, so it needs time to mature.
    Plus, I'm only getting a Lumia 620 on Easter Sunday, so I'll see how well it holds up to iOS, Android and S60 3rd Edition.
    Apps?
    I am not going to comment on that. Each and every person has his/her own set of apps.
    For example, the girl sitting to my right has a 5th Generation iPod Touch and is obviously a fan of Instagram.
    To my left, a guy has a Windows Phone (it's from HTC), and is merely using it for calls (in other words, he uses it casually.)
    While I am nonchalantly using an S60 phone (which I use because it has some awesome niche shmups).

    But for me, Windows Phone has won me over, and that is most important, at least for me.
    HeyCori and anon(5354555) like this.
    03-29-2013 08:57 AM
  8. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Hardware-wise, you could say that Windows Phone is going almost nowhere.
    Yes, I'm serious about that statement. How many apps only work on devices that have 1 GB of RAM? How many phones are there with 4 or 8 GB of internal storage? In this respect, Windows Phone is going absolutely nowhere. Largely because the OEMs are adhering to the standards of yesteryear (for starters, my N95 8GB was release a around a half-decade ago.)
    However, if you talk about features and how unique the phones are, Windows Phones (excluding the ATIVs) blow everyone else out of the water. Yes, even the Nexus 4, which includes wireless charging. Yes, even the HTC One, with its OIS. Yes, even the iPhone (it's a given.)
    Software-wise, that's a different story.
    WP8 is more or less technical update. And, it's based on the NT Kernel, so it needs time to mature.
    Plus, I'm only getting a Lumia 620 on Easter Sunday, so I'll see how well it holds up to iOS, Android and S60 3rd Edition.
    Apps?
    I am not going to comment on that. Each and every person has his/her own set of apps.
    For example, the girl sitting to my right has a 5th Generation iPod Touch and is obviously a fan of Instagram.
    To my left, a guy has a Windows Phone (it's from HTC), and is merely using it for calls (in other words, he uses it casually.)
    While I am nonchalantly using an S60 phone (which I use because it has some awesome niche shmups).

    But for me, Windows Phone has won me over, and that is most important, at least for me.
    Those low storage phones are for low end markets. How many GBs of storage does ZTE Blade have inbuilt? How how many GBs does Galaxy Ace has inbuilt? N8 half a decade ago was a flagship phone with 8GB, today's flagship is Lumia 920 with 32GB - 4 times that capacity!
    admorris#AC likes this.
    03-29-2013 11:05 AM
  9. ohgood's Avatar
    guy asked for opinions, and I numbered them for ease of reading/following. figured that was a positive.

    is highlighting points in a quote or numbering points and counters considered bad ?
    03-29-2013 11:17 AM
  10. stmav's Avatar
    I do think it's heading in the right direction. Sure there are problems that still need to be addressed and I think they will address them. Maybe not as fast as some would like. Since getting a 920 in November I've seen the Portico update come across. Nokia release updates every time I turn around. And a pleasant run on apps and games lately, which I think is going to continue.

    To me, Nokia is playing just as big a role as MS in determining the direction of WP. Sometimes we get tunnel vision and think in terms of US only as far as adoption goes. But as you read the news articles, bit by bit they are they are getting into the international markets. I am very interested in watching the sales in India over the next couple of months. Nokia is turning out attractive phones in several price ranges that is giving people WP options at a price they can afford. I really think it would help to get the 720 and 620 into some of the US carriers.

    MS has to know that a mobile presence is a must. So I do think they are in it. I'm not thinking in terms of taking over marketshare in the short term. But to establish themselves as a viable 3rd option. Then over time grow the marketshare to a respectable percentage. I like the way my phone works and syncs with my Surface and laptop. So I see the potential of the three screen scenario. Can't wait to see what gets done on GDR2 and GDR3. What happens there and is followed up with Blue is going to give us a better picture of what to expect.
    03-29-2013 11:23 AM
  11. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    guy asked for opinions, and I numbered them for ease of reading/following. figured that was a positive.

    is highlighting points in a quote or numbering points and counters considered bad ?
    I do it a lot. I don't consider it a problem personally. In fact I'm likely going to take that approach when I answer the questions myself later.
    03-29-2013 11:23 AM
  12. stmav's Avatar
    guy asked for opinions, and I numbered them for ease of reading/following. figured that was a positive.

    is highlighting points in a quote or numbering points and counters considered bad ?
    Giving your opinion when asked is not bad at all. But editing a quote can be considered bad form. Just leave the quote as is and do your reply however you want that works for you to get your point across.
    03-29-2013 11:27 AM
  13. anon4287986's Avatar
    I have a blackberry and a Apple desktop but I own an Xbox360 which I use daily! I had a chance to play with the Lumia 920 and WP8 OS and I actually really like it. It seems to me that they are coming along. They have a great OS and devices... I am hoping that in a years time, I can walk into any carrier store and see a Windows, BlackBerry, Android and Apple section all represented fairly. As far as if they are headed in the right direction? I think so. WP8 is different. BlackBerry 10 is different. Android and Apple are virtually the same paradigm. 2013 is going to be a really interesting year. I hope to see more Windows phones in people's hands.
    03-29-2013 01:20 PM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    It is Microsoft's job to grow, or at least sustain their revenue levels during the next decade. MS has no hope of achieving that without becoming a much more relevant player in mobile (tablets & smartphones). WP is staying, for as long as it takes.

    Technically, I think WP is going in the right direction. Developers are getting a common runtime environment and increasingly similar programming interfaces in Windows, RT and WP. Users are getting an increasingly familiar UI that shares its design language and behaves similarly across three screens. All the while Microsoft is expanding and modernising their cloud based services step by step (deeper bing integration, maps, outlook.com, skydrive, IE11 tab and favourites sync, start screen sync, etc). Best of all, MS is resisting market pressures to turn WP into an Android clone with a different UI. Although WP8 has stumbled in a few areas, it is clear that MS envisions WP as an OS that can manage itself autonomously, instead of requiring the owner to do so. It takes a lot of courage to stick to a strategy in the face of difficulties (very slow market share growth), but I think it will pay off in the long run.

    In most other ways however, I think WP is failing. WP has yet many issues to resolve, but I'm going to focus only on the big picture. I see three major problems: lack of communication, lack of a marketable identity and a lack of champions.

    Lack of communication

    Microsoft has subscribed to a "shut up and ship" philosophy. I think that is a mistake. I'm not saying Microsoft should overpromise and underdeliver! However, Microsoft does need to give customers more to look forward to and be excited about! Microsoft doesn't need to reveal every single feature they are working on. There is nothing wrong with keeping a few things secret, with which Microsoft can surprise their competition and consumers alike. However, as it is now, many understandably question whether MS is even listening. This is counterproductive. Joe Belfiore fires off a tweat every once in a while, but I find this woefully insufficient and a bit unprofessional. As jhoff80 mentioned: "It's tough to say [if WP is headed in the right direction] until we at least get some details on what Blue will entail on the Windows Phone side of things". IMHO people buy into a product vision just as much as they buy into the product itself. That vision for WP isn't being communicated. This vision desperately needs to be communicated, including a few of the features to go along with it.

    Lack of a marketable identity

    If you want a smartphone that is beautifully designed, that just works, and where you can count on there being an app for that, what do you buy?

    If you want a smartphone with the latest and greatest hardware, a large screen, that isn't confined to a walled garden and that is flexible and highly configurable, what do you buy?

    Anyone with just the slightest interest in smartphones can tell you which of the above sentences refers to the iPhone and which to Android. WP has no such identity. As it is now, even people with an interest in smartphones have difficulty explaining what WP stands for, and why anybody should choose it over the Android or iOS competition. That isn't good enough.

    WP desperately needs two or three things it aims to excel at. Whatever they are, Microsoft needs to focus the WP team on making WP shine in those areas. Being a jack of all trades but master of none won't cut it anymore. The market is already too mature for that to work. Once established, Microsoft must market the h3ll out of those advantages. It's not that WP doesn't have any advantages as it is, they just aren't marketable, particularly not in a TV add.

    Lack of champions

    In all the markets where WP sells well, it isn't doing so based on the popularity of the OS. It is doing so despite the popularity of the OS.

    In all the markets where WP outsells the iPhone, the reasons for this achievement are price and/or the Nokia brand. In economies where people have more disposable income and choices, like western Europe and the U.S., consumers will choose what is seen as the most desirable OS instead. What is the most desirable OS is determined by enthusiasts everywhere, collectively.

    Unfortunately, WP isn't able to rally enough of these enthusiasts. WP may be targeted at the average Joe, but Microsoft needs to cater towards the needs and expectations of enthusiasts as well, for it will be up to them/us to provide the most effective part of Microsoft's marketing push. Microsoft needs to reach out, talk, and deliver more for this group.

    Omniusovermind and others mentioned/referenced many of the missing features that finally need to get taken care of for WP. Although those are all very important, and I wish MS were faster, those issues don't worry me much. They will come. It's the negligence surrounding these big picture issues that I find far more worrying...

    Technically, yes, right direction. Many other things, no, wrong direction.
    Last edited by a5cent; 03-30-2013 at 12:13 AM. Reason: Spelling only
    03-29-2013 02:35 PM
  15. Oliver Newell's Avatar
    It is slowly but surely taking off. After reading an article on this forum about windows phone 8 outselling the iPhone in 7 countries including Russia and India WP8 is getting a broader market share each month as it seams. The most popular and to some deal breaking apps like instagram and Pandora, which have not been available on WP8 yet are coming to the platform soon, and if Nokia and HTC can put in a bit more effort in advertising I reckon it will take off very quickly, a gather a proper market share. Samsung need to ***** up their ears, the Ativ S is a great phone, one of the best available on WP8, its just no one knows it exists.
    03-29-2013 05:44 PM
  16. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    This is what is going to happen, because Microsoft failed to understand a simple fact: The people who prefer Microsoft, over Apple, prefer open models, over closed models. Microsoft, in trying to create outstanding uniform consumer experience, has alienated its most important loyalists. Those who do not like being locked-in.
    I would not say that is the case. Microsoft has always been proprietary, not open source, even though Microsoft does contribute some things to the open source community. Open source fans would gravitate more toward Linux and things like the Ubuntu mobile and Firefox mobile OSes.
    03-29-2013 05:52 PM
  17. ChMar's Avatar
    This is what is going to happen, because Microsoft failed to understand a simple fact: The people who prefer Microsoft, over Apple, prefer open models, over closed models. Microsoft, in trying to create outstanding uniform consumer experience, has alienated its most important loyalists. Those who do not like being locked-in.
    We are talking about a personal mobile device here. On a computer I can have multiple user accounts. I'm protected from viruses and malware by browsing and using software on accounts without administrator permissions. A smartphone is a different situation. I run the software as administrator by default in such an environment so security is much more relevant than for pc. In enterprise pc are locked down by servers. At home you have some protection by using UAC and installing only software made by recognizable companies.

    Now consider android and it's not locked environment. I download and install a swipe keyboard. Now that keyboard has access to all my passwords and user names. Sure it's not locked is open is customizable and completely unsafe. Android is so open that any app can intercept incoming sms or incoming email or even send sms and making phone calls without you knowing this. All your user names and passwords that you have assigned to your email belong to any app that can read your email. Malware can make phone calls for you taxing you or spying you without you ever knowing it. This is the price of mindless openness. This is why on google play 1 in 7 apps is a spyware. You don't store your credit card information's in apps in a pc but you do on a smartphone. You go to your work place with your smartphone and have access to the company data. I'm all for openness but not in detriment of security or usability.
    rbxtreme likes this.
    03-29-2013 06:09 PM
  18. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    a5cent, MSFT is sitting on a potential identity: "if you want seamless and integrated EXPERIENCE that lets you be as social and productive as you uniquely are across ALL devices".

    That's why MSFT needs to integrate ALL the pieces of WP8 they've shown us superbly. WP8 has great social integration potential...this means MSFT must make the OS visually smooth, easy to use (whether you have apps or not), add quality apps, all on top of great hardware. The People Hub should be a key reason to switch if they develop it fully. There are parts there, but no one cares about how good a v12 engine, voice dialing, leather seats, large trunk storage and great mileage are separately - unless it works well in a car that both LOOKS good and DRIVES well.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-29-2013 06:19 PM
  19. omniusovermind's Avatar
    a5cent made a good point about champions I'd like to add to. It's a little known piece of trivia outside the tech news outlets that Verizon is largely credited with propelling Android into mainstream adoption. WP8 would benefit from carriers pushing it harder if they could be motivated to do so

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    03-29-2013 08:04 PM
  20. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    Those low storage phones are for low end markets. How many GBs of storage does ZTE Blade have inbuilt? How how many GBs does Galaxy Ace has inbuilt? N8 half a decade ago was a flagship phone with 8GB, today's flagship is Lumia 920 with 32GB - 4 times that capacity!
    You're missing the point.
    An app needs 4x its size to install on WP, which is partially alleviated by installing from SD Card.
    I'm fine with 8 GB for low/mid-end models, but what I'd really like to point out is this:
    HTC released a variant of the 8X with 8 GB of internal storage (and no SD card)
    Nokia released the Lumia 820 with 8 GB of internal storage.
    And, I'd like to talk about the 4 GB phones out there. (8S, Ascend W1)
    The point is, the first two phones are high-end (because of 1.5 GHz/1 GB RAM arrangement), and are willingly bought by people who expect them to run (or install, for that matter) every app they throw at them.
    And, with the "Other" Storage problem, The 8S and Ascend W1 are practically useless, app-wise.
    With Andropid, you can transfer your apps to the SD card anyway, so internal storage is no big deal.

    BTW, if you were talking about the 8GB phone that was released half a decade ago, that was the N95 8GB. The Nokia N8 was released with 16 GB of internal storage.
    (Sorry for the late reply, and please check on the phones you refer to. As someone who is only switching from Symbian now, I'm actually hurt.)
    03-29-2013 08:09 PM
  21. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    a5cent made a good point about champions I'd like to add to. It's a little known piece of trivia outside the tech news outlets that Verizon is largely credited with propelling Android into mainstream adoption. WP8 would benefit from carriers pushing it harder if they could be motivated to do so

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    The Only Carrier capable of doing that was AT&T, which is iPhone Central. T-Mobile won't because they started Android, Verizon won't because they propelled Android, and Sprint won't...because its Sprint and their most iconic device is the EVO line.

    The only thing can propel WP forward on a carrier is a well put together AND WELL MARKETED FLAGSHIP DEVICE. Nokia WAS doing this with the 900, and this should have been continued with the 920. But I will bet it was MSFT itself behind those initial WP8 ads because they didn't want the Lumia brand to be synonymous with WP.
    03-29-2013 08:36 PM
  22. KingCrimson's Avatar
    The problem is lack of basic OS features + lack of the latest & greatest iOS apps.

    Features - No universal search, no Siri/Google Now, no customizable ring tones + volume levels, no notification center, no "do not disturb" function, no folders for organization of the start screen.
    Apps - No Temple Run 2, Vine, Instagram, Pinterest, Youtube, Gmail, Flipboard, latest Angry Birds games and on and on.

    Until both these issues are addressed, WP will struggle to get 5% marketshare.
    03-29-2013 09:25 PM
  23. MikeSo's Avatar
    I have a Lumia 900, but am going to move to WP8 later this year. But I have become more and more reluctant to do so, to be honest. The OS is just not gaining traction with the public, and thus not with developers of smaller, popular apps and games either.

    I have been willing to overlook this, assuming that critical mass will be reached soon... But frankly, I am not sure how much longer I am willing to wait it out, while new apps and services come and go on other OSes. I'm not even one of those who must have the latest apps all the time, but it's getting annoying to never even have the choice of using something popular that isn't already dead on other systems (case in point, Draw Something :)).

    But there are signs of hope, mostly seemingly thanks to Nokia's commitment to the platform. I'm not sure MS has a clue what to do. And while I'm happy to see they are investing in ads, the ads never seem to give a reason for anyone to buy a phone. SOME sort of "wow" factor is needed... And those ads have none. Combine that with any apps that make a switch necessary for an iOS or android user, and I think it's difficult to truly believe that WP is moving in the right direction. It mostly seems to be standing still.
    03-29-2013 09:33 PM
  24. ChMar's Avatar
    All those people saying that they don't see apps and support from 3rd party developers I think they don't want to realize what is involved in making a piece of software. WP8 launched at the end of October the phones appeared in November. Retraining personnel or hiring specialized wp8 developers is taking a least a month. December is a month full of holidays. So it a more fair assumption to presume that development could be started in January (now you have phones and trained people to code for them). An good quality app is made in 2-3 month. Assuming you are working on multiplatform apps then you add 1 more month for wp8 because lets face it, it's not the first concern(it should not be considering it's market share). So you end with a 3-4 month of development cycle for wp8. Assuming you jumped on wp8 dev wagon from the start if not you get more delays on the way. So I don't know in what world you would expect 3rd party software publishers to get their apps on wp8. If they would read forums like this one they would have second thought about developing for wp8 devices for sure. People here have completely impossible expectations and consider that by the end of march they should be covered in apps from 3rd party developers.

    All I see here are Nokia fans who bring praises to Nokia for pushing wp8(I have a htc 8x and I'm not screwed by an att firmware update as some nokia users) but all that is mostly media and marketing noise. Yes they do try to sell their phones, they do try to entice developers(by various incentives) but in doing so they do not do this for wp8 but for their lumia devices. MS had their own campaigns as good or as bad as they were(the youtube series comes to mind) and they did not favor nokia over htc they did it showcasing both devices.

    Let's face it in US most people buy their phones from carriers and carriers in US so far have been slow to bring wp8 devices or promote them. Can't push things just with the power of mind.

    Some developers (evernote) realized that wp8 has potential for profit(per user this means the number of users still remains an issue). And they clearly stated that a port wont suffice and you need to embrace the platform at its full potential to be successful. This means other companies will follow when they will muster the resources for wp8 development(market share still an issue here) but development takes time.

    As for service oriented companies I doubt most of them keep in house development teams. Most of them will outsource it's development and that depends on how profitable their services are and depends mostly on market share. When your business is service oriented you depend on large audience as you charge(or not) for your services and not for the software for wp8 platform.

    I never saw a more divided community behind an ecosystem. Complains about missing software expecting it to come in weeks or a month. When that software comes(Pandora, temple run) you see only complains like Pandora is us only buhuhuhu, temple run is old buhuhuhu, temple run for now requires 1gb so it's MS fault buhuhuh.

    When MS announce clear support terms you get a lot of reactions on how ms is going to dump the os and how all should run from wp8. People are having problems with 3rd party apps yet they prefer to blame MS instead of taking their complains to the ones making that software. When a piece of software comes at a higher price for wp8(considering a lot less people are going to buy that product I consider this to be normal after all cost of development must taken care of) you only hear complains.

    Everyone is complaining that they are treated as 3rd grade customers and the most surprising part is they blame MS. for updates, for the fact that htc does not see a need to pour a rain of firmware updates like nokia(this only shows cautions not to break the system by rushing not lack of support) for the fact that they don't get newer phones faster(like MS is building the phones) for the fact that current wp8 devices do not match future android devices in terms of specs(Samsung s4 who you can't even buy in stores right now) and so on.

    Act as first grade customers and ask for os features to Microsoft better firmware that don't break your phone to nokia, more firmware upgrades to htc and better apps that can also run on 512mb devices from the ones that make those apps. And don't expect ms or nokia or anyone to make instagram campaigns for you. You are the software consumers you go and prove there is a demand for them. Don't ask for temple run if it is old and don't want it. Ask something else instead. Stop blaming MS because google doesn't want it's services on wp8. Complain to google or better stop using their services if they don't care to provide them for you.

    In the end MS sells an OS and it does not sell it for personal use it sells the os to OEMs so they have no responsibility to go grab apps for you and making miracles and giving those apps to you in weeks.
    03-29-2013 10:10 PM
  25. Sugadevan Rajarathinam's Avatar
    Going well and the next 2 big updates will make WP mature. Microsoft can't abandon WP :)
    03-29-2013 10:36 PM
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