Well if he is educated by the ones that understand how things are them he will better understand if he is right in his fury and where his fury should be focused. We are all common men. Some are more knowledgeable in some areas than others but we all have our lapses. This is solved by providing them with factual information.
What's up with the 1 GB RAM requirement ?
- Thread starter Sanjay Chandra
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Well if he is educated by the ones that understand how things are them he will better understand if he is right in his fury and where his fury should be focused. We are all common men. Some are more knowledgeable in some areas than others but we all have our lapses. This is solved by providing them with factual information.
HNNNNNGHHH
New member
The 1GB RAM requirement for some games on WP8 is basically the same situation for those who bought a low-end device with 256MB of RAM back in the WP7 days: the actual available amount of RAM in a given device is a margin smaller than described, due to the OS partition already using RAM at startup and while the device is running. Plus, Windows Phone limits how much RAM any given application/game can use to avoid any conflicts with other apps and to keep the operating system from crashing. (This is similar to the situation for iOS, but with a few differences)
Android on the other hand needs very high-end specs and large amounts of RAM because the OS has no present RAM usage limit on apps, which basically explains why many android users complain about their low-tier, mid-tier, even high-end smartphones being laggy, unresponsive, and any other affiliated problems.
(Forgive me if I'm stating information already given by someone else. It just seems like the multitudes of users who participated in this thread are off topic, what with the incessant locker-room-esque banter and exchanging of insults.)
Android on the other hand needs very high-end specs and large amounts of RAM because the OS has no present RAM usage limit on apps, which basically explains why many android users complain about their low-tier, mid-tier, even high-end smartphones being laggy, unresponsive, and any other affiliated problems.
(Forgive me if I'm stating information already given by someone else. It just seems like the multitudes of users who participated in this thread are off topic, what with the incessant locker-room-esque banter and exchanging of insults.)
I think "You get what u pay for" is wrong type of defense mechanism.Sure , It may be true in WP case.
Nexus 7 - $200 - can play any game or run any app
Nexus 4 - $350 - same (sometimes people say that , it competes with $649 iPhone 5)
Why don't u think in that way ?
What about those people who paid $500+ for unlocked Lumia 800s ?
If devs work properly , 1gb devices can get even better apps not just those one-year-old spidermans or batmans.
512 mb devices also get better apps. (which include 900s and 800s , Omnia/Focus , radar etc.)
That's entire point of this forum post.Not about pissing off devs or whining about MS.
Nexus 7 - $200 - can play any game or run any app
Nexus 4 - $350 - same (sometimes people say that , it competes with $649 iPhone 5)
Why don't u think in that way ?
What about those people who paid $500+ for unlocked Lumia 800s ?
If devs work properly , 1gb devices can get even better apps not just those one-year-old spidermans or batmans.
512 mb devices also get better apps. (which include 900s and 800s , Omnia/Focus , radar etc.)
That's entire point of this forum post.Not about pissing off devs or whining about MS.
rbxtreme
New member
The whole time that I have spent on this thread , I have noticed that all that was being told was what you just said in your reply.
"If devs work properly , 1gb devices can get even better apps not just those one-year-old spidermans or batmans.512 mb devices also get better apps. (which include 900s and 800s , Omnia/Focus , radar etc.)"
So the whole point is MS can be blamed for "wifi keepalive" not present on wp7, but for tunein radio requiring 1 gig of RAM head over to TuneIn Radio.
"If devs work properly , 1gb devices can get even better apps not just those one-year-old spidermans or batmans.512 mb devices also get better apps. (which include 900s and 800s , Omnia/Focus , radar etc.)"
So the whole point is MS can be blamed for "wifi keepalive" not present on wp7, but for tunein radio requiring 1 gig of RAM head over to TuneIn Radio.
read the last line of my reply , people think that this thread is about blaming MS for temple run/tune in which is not (reminding same thing over and over again)
I don't want this thread to go into some sort of ****** thread/diverting into some other topic.
Its about wp platform issues i described above reply with 3 points in previous page and at the rate where current apps are headed , seriously everyone gets screwed and its wp 7.5 all over again
Just see what "HNNNNNGHHH" said in his reply :
" It just seems like the multitudes of users who participated in this thread are off topic, what with the incessant locker-room-esque banter and exchanging of insults."
MS needs to closely work with devs as well to resolve issues
rbxtreme
New member
That's where we arrived travelling all this while. This thread,was about why tune in needs a gig of ram while all the other apps run on android/ios perfectly. And then we had one set of people saying that's MS fault that they don't let games run on 512's(ignoring the 620's 720's 8s) and a different set of people convincing that the devs need to work on optimizing their code. The fact is wp8 as ecosystem is 6 months old compared to android and ios so comparing it,with them and then deciding the future of the OS,makes no sense. Its a baby give it time, when it matures it will compete with the others. Cheers
A poorly written app is solely the fault of the developer, there's no reason i can think of for a radio player to require 1gb other than the developer can't be bothered to spend the extra time optimising it to run on 512k, or they have figures showing it doesn't make financial sense to.
I just cannot fully agree with the stance "you get what you pay for" when it's pretty clear that the philosophy of Windows Phone is to minimize fragmentation as much as possible. Yes, developers are ultimately to blame, and frankly there's nothing wrong with high memory requirements as some apps really DO need higher spec hardware. However, unlike ordinary computers (or androids) where specifications are unregulated, the specs for all Windows Phone 8's ARE indeed regulated by Microsoft. So therefore why shouldn't I expect app compatibility to be the same for Windows Phone 8 devices?
travisel
New member
There are 144k Apps in the store! If you could divide them by the RAM they use would be interesting to see what size is used mostly. There are are three sizes of RAM:
- 256MB
- 512MB
- 1024MB
I would think 45% would be 256MB & 45% are 512MB.
So 10% are 1GB?
I would love to see a graph of this usage.
"AppFlow app says 144,160 Apps for Windows Phone @220 Apps average per day added"
I wish Windows Phone would get apps first then port to iPhone & Android, then there would be more control then broken ports! Of course this will never happen!
I believe there are more Smartphone with 512MB RAM then any other sizes for now? This is why Microsoft used 512MB RAM as the memory base for WP8? Why can't they support both sizes of RAM in WP8? Should be more like a PC just turn off or add function's that take up memory? So people can have cut down working Apps instead of no Apps?
- 256MB
- 512MB
- 1024MB
I would think 45% would be 256MB & 45% are 512MB.
So 10% are 1GB?
I would love to see a graph of this usage.
"AppFlow app says 144,160 Apps for Windows Phone @220 Apps average per day added"
I wish Windows Phone would get apps first then port to iPhone & Android, then there would be more control then broken ports! Of course this will never happen!
I believe there are more Smartphone with 512MB RAM then any other sizes for now? This is why Microsoft used 512MB RAM as the memory base for WP8? Why can't they support both sizes of RAM in WP8? Should be more like a PC just turn off or add function's that take up memory? So people can have cut down working Apps instead of no Apps?
You should not expect app compatibility to be the same because no one can force 3rd party developers to make it so. And please give me some good example of apps that do require 1gb of ram(apps not games). Even apple can't impose such restrictions(meaning an app can choose to work only on newly iphone 5). MS not making phones like apple regulates some specs for the ecosystem but it depends on oems who want cheaper devices which sell more and bring profit so must give room for such devices.
I strongly believe that imposing control on hardware by an OS manufacturer is too extreme. Beside game consoles which are not true computing devices(are limited to games mostly and produce explicitly by 1 company) I don't see a point in the computer industry(including smartphones) for strict hardware limitations.
In the end if 3rd party developers want their services used or their apps to sell they would have to optimize(pressure from the buyers will speed up the process)
Your comparison is a bit false. The 256 devices are wp7 only. You can't truly compare the wp7 to wp8 no matter part of the api being common. This goes for the number of apps as well it's not a good base of comparison.
No one says that 3rd party developers can't support devices with 512ram or 1gb ram. Usually the optimization stage is the last stage in development. So if your budget(time and money) runs out you basically have to ship the app without optimizations. No one is willing to work for free.
The basis for ram considerations is resolution. This is the prime factor used for deciding the ram values. Bigger resolutions implies bigger images and more space used for bitmap type of images. But doubling the memory if you increase the resolution is not enough(considering recently used apps remain in memory) so you also have less apps in the stack of suspended apps on lower devices(the increase in pixels is not 2x more like 2.5x).
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travisel
New member
So you say resolutions are RAM values? Like 480p/720p/768p/1080p are basis 256MB/512MB/1GB/2GB RAM? I was told this is not true.
Again 256mb does not exist for wp8 devices so ignore that.
on WP7 nokia made the 610 device with 256 RAM but wvga(800x480)
WP8:
wvga(480p) comes with 512mb
720p/768p are in the same class and correspond to the 1gb device
1080p - 2gb exist only in android landscape not on wp8 but I would expect to be the case for windows phone also if it will ever support that resolution.
Now android mostly respect the same specifications(major and respected oems not Chinese clones)
iphone is also similar in this respect but of course they have other resolutions
so this parity between ram and resolution is consistent on wp8
rockstarzzz
New member
I don't see any point in your argument. If you don't pay for the stuff, you don't get it simple. Doesn't matter when you buy it. 2001 OR 2013. If you pay for low end device, you can't expect it to have this app or that app. Doesn't matter what app. Low end is targeted for people who are not app whores and who aren't feature whores. All they want is a phone that does little smart things and they want to put their money somewhere else. Xperia Tipo running smoother than a 520 or a 620? May be. Xperia Tipo providing superior user experience? No. The user who has only $150 to spend on a phone, will invest in low end Android and will regret because his user experience over all is pathetic. However, a low end WP worth only $110 with lack of apps, still is a far superior user experience and hence only app whores will think of being able to use the app and choose it over user experience.
Developers that target iPhone 3GS or iPhone 4 - are limited with what they can make, what they can develop. If you are a sane and creative developer e.g. LD, Irtiqa etc in WP community you would want to exploit the possibilities of "ideas into apps" by using all the latest and the greatest hardware the platform has to offer. If a WP developer still wants to target only WP7.5 Mango/Tango markets - he will be wasting his talent and time. The hardware and OS will restrict it. Doesn't matter even if the audience is 10 times larger on that old versions. You don't get apps that integrate with lockscreen, you don't get apps that use voice commands, you don't get apps that graphic intensive, heck you don't get unity games!
So even though user base of low end device is HUGE, developers aren't going to give out quality apps if they only target that userbase. Flagship and latest and greatest has always worked. Going by your example itself, iPhone has managed to make people buy a new iPhone EVERY YEAR! They know that we live in the latest and the greatest is bestest world. Let's take an example of Temple Run that only runs on high end devices or WP8 - if you are a fan of that game and likes of it, you won't be on WP7.x anymore. It's pretty clear you need WP8 for that. That is how technology moves - forward, not backwards. So low end users will become high end in future and that's why the game targetting iPhone 5 will earn more money that a game or app targetted for 4S only audience.
Your third point about inefficiency - may be that's true. May be TuneIn radio was inefficient. But before calling it a bloatware, try to come up with a similar app yourself. You don't know why they had to make that requirement for 1GB. It could be that in future road plan it has been planned to integrate it deeper with other features that are available. May be further updates are going to make it resource intensive. Whatever the case, if an app needs 1GB and you need that app, you need a 1GB phone, simple.
...and lastly, WP is stable. I will tell you that repeatedly. Maybe current version of WP8 isn't that stable but find me one WP7 user who would disagree with me. WP8 is a new kernel, lots of unknowns. But it won't be the same after WP8.1 to WP80 unless they change kernels.
I really should have read these posts before writing my previous post. So only two questions are needed now:
1) Have you ever read WP8 SDK documentation? Tried WP8 SDK?
2) So your thread is for discussing issues with current WP?
"Developers that target iPhone 3GS or iPhone 4 - are limited with what they can make, what they can develop"
>> Wrong , I will give a perfect example for this.
There is an app called Letterpress (probably less than 20 mb after installation)
3GS can run the app.
When 3GS came out , it "shipped" with iOS 3.0 by default.
Letterpress offers lot of features which are not available from iOS 3.0 :
Lets see different API's what Letterpress game has :
In-App Purchase for unlimited simultaneous games instead 2 game limit (iOS 3.0 introduced In-app purchase)
Game Center Integration (feature of iOS 4.1)
Rematch option (iOS 5 feature)
Game Center Auto Match (iOS 5 feature)
Push Notifications (Feature from iOS 3.0 and notifications in lockscreen feature is from iOS 5.0)
App Switching/Resuming (from iOS 4.0)
See ? No feature is missing , right ? They utilized every feature from each update.
Another Example :
Asphalt 7 :
Gamecenter/Multiplayer (from iOS 4.1 and iOS 5)
In-app purchase of coins (from iOS 3.0)
App Switching/Resume (from iOS 4.0)
Both apps work on any device starting with base model (which is 3GS or above)
What is difference between asphalt 7 in 3GS and iPhone 5 ?
iPhone 5 version has awesome graphics and works faster , with shiny effects as 4S does but game is wider for 5's display.(Probably they may be planning asphalt 8 that's why they didn't update graphics for iPhone 5 apart from screen resolution optimization)
3GS version runs with lower textures , lower installation space but features are same.
A developer can make apps for all devices while still limiting some features for older devices or he can release 2 versions like Android (Tegra Vs non-Tegra version).
What are WP devs doing ? Releasing an app for high end version and completely ignoring low end version.
There is no doubt that WP is already fragmented like Android (but to a far lesser extent) but in android devs release 2 separate versions if they feel some features/hardware is different but in WP they are simply ignore one version completely (low end) and releasing only high end versions.
There lies the difference.
"but find me one WP7 user who would disagree with me."
>>Lumia 710 can't END A PHONE CALL , a simple but yet significant issue.There are like thousands of 710 owners who disagree with you about "WP7 stability"
Here's the link :
Can't end call in Lumia 710 - Nokia Support Discussions
Another Example :
A recent example probably :
Windows Phone 7.8 Update Not Too Smooth for Nokia Lumia 900 and 800 Users
Remember that 7.8 also counts under WP7
>> Wrong , I will give a perfect example for this.
There is an app called Letterpress (probably less than 20 mb after installation)
3GS can run the app.
When 3GS came out , it "shipped" with iOS 3.0 by default.
Letterpress offers lot of features which are not available from iOS 3.0 :
Lets see different API's what Letterpress game has :
In-App Purchase for unlimited simultaneous games instead 2 game limit (iOS 3.0 introduced In-app purchase)
Game Center Integration (feature of iOS 4.1)
Rematch option (iOS 5 feature)
Game Center Auto Match (iOS 5 feature)
Push Notifications (Feature from iOS 3.0 and notifications in lockscreen feature is from iOS 5.0)
App Switching/Resuming (from iOS 4.0)
See ? No feature is missing , right ? They utilized every feature from each update.
Another Example :
Asphalt 7 :
Gamecenter/Multiplayer (from iOS 4.1 and iOS 5)
In-app purchase of coins (from iOS 3.0)
App Switching/Resume (from iOS 4.0)
Both apps work on any device starting with base model (which is 3GS or above)
What is difference between asphalt 7 in 3GS and iPhone 5 ?
iPhone 5 version has awesome graphics and works faster , with shiny effects as 4S does but game is wider for 5's display.(Probably they may be planning asphalt 8 that's why they didn't update graphics for iPhone 5 apart from screen resolution optimization)
3GS version runs with lower textures , lower installation space but features are same.
A developer can make apps for all devices while still limiting some features for older devices or he can release 2 versions like Android (Tegra Vs non-Tegra version).
What are WP devs doing ? Releasing an app for high end version and completely ignoring low end version.
There is no doubt that WP is already fragmented like Android (but to a far lesser extent) but in android devs release 2 separate versions if they feel some features/hardware is different but in WP they are simply ignore one version completely (low end) and releasing only high end versions.
There lies the difference.
"but find me one WP7 user who would disagree with me."
>>Lumia 710 can't END A PHONE CALL , a simple but yet significant issue.There are like thousands of 710 owners who disagree with you about "WP7 stability"
Here's the link :
Can't end call in Lumia 710 - Nokia Support Discussions
Another Example :
A recent example probably :
Windows Phone 7.8 Update Not Too Smooth for Nokia Lumia 900 and 800 Users
Remember that 7.8 also counts under WP7
You missed a few important things:
1. Both devices are heavily subsidized by Google and sold at cost or lost. Basically, Google has money to burn and intent to get paid when you purchase things from Play store. If any manufacturer decides to do the same, they will be out of business soon.
2. Wrong comparison. Nexus 7 $200 should be compared to those $100 non-name Chinese tablets which is the true low end tablet in Android market. Try play anything on those.
3. Nexsus 4 is by no means low end. The exact same phone sold in LG name costs the same as any other high end Android phones.
512mb WP8 phones are indeed lowest in the WP category. You shouldn't expect much from it. It is not like WP platform has a commanding market share that devs willing to spend extra time stripe a game to the bones so that it can run on the 512mb phones.
rockstarzzz
New member
Okay so let's establish one thing here - are we talking about availability of apps on different OS iterations or different kernels or different hardware limitations? I am sure the thread was about 1 GB RAM limitation but from this post it looks like we are comparing OS iterations. You can't really compare WP iterations with iOS and Android. None of the platforms had core kernel changes which WP7-WP8 is a kernel change. iOS or Android developer can effectively make up those apps because it is the same OS. WP developer has to make two apps for two OS. The positive is that Microsoft has managed to keep forward compatibility of all WP7 with minor tweaks onto WP8. What you are saying will be possible and we will see a lot more of when you have WP8, WP8.1, WP8.5, WP9, WP9.1 handsets in the market - the only limiting factor than will be hardware specs, not the OS or kernel like right now.
WP7.8 thread that you've pasted is a well known glitch in update roll out that was halted by Microsoft and now is being rolled out with a patch.
Bug in software is different than stability of the OS - WP7 potentially the fastest/smoothest OS? - AnandTech Forums
Microsoft's Windows Phone 7 is the most stable mobile phone OS | ZDNet
Windows Phone 7 receives "operating system of the year" award | Windows Phone Central
Those links up there are from journos. You have to remember no Microsoft product EVER gets a positive press from tech journos. However, that will be off-topic pertaining to this thread.
Talk to the devs and solve the situation. I can give you example of apps that only work on iphone 5+ too. You also listed in your sample different os features which don't mean much as you still can't do multitasking on 3gs version as you can on iphone4+.
In the end please remember this. MS does regulate hw specifications it imposes conduit for apps but is not regulating apps. A piece of software is a combination of engineering and art. You cant regulate art(expect disallow it if it is pornographic or racist).
So as a piece of art no one can force the developer to abide by any creative restrictions so in the case of games if I feel that my art will deviate from my vision no one should force me to lower anything. If you dislike the ignore situation state your desire to use their apps to the devs. If there is demand there will be an offer.
No again consider the economic part. No one in the world can force someone to work for free or worse to work with a negative balance. If time runs out and all I can is ship for high end devices I won't stop paying my employees and demand them to optimize on their own money or time. Nor will I throw away the app because I run out of budget and call it a loss. I will ship. The most important and biggest quality of a product it's the ability to ship it.
Talk to the 3rd party devs tell them you would love to pay for their work on low end devices and you shall have it(castrated or not still depending on the dev)
About the 710 and the other problems you provided as sample please do not make a confusion about OS stability and a bug in firmware there are 2 separate things.
How about 7.8 Live tile issues and MS halted update temporarily ?
Give me list of iPhone 5 exclusive apps please.
Give me atleast 3-4
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I have no data about that. About Live tile issues it is a known issue with patch for it. About the temporary halt on updates I know nothing. I do know MS offers the OEMs the ability to roll firmware at the same time with their os patches(it minimize the approval time from carrier to unify 2 type of updates). I don't know if it is os or firmware so I can't provide factual data.
What I can say the latest ios 6 had issues to and required updates with fixes and they only have their phones and no carrier in the middle(I'm not talking about apple maps).
Do I want apps sure thing I do. I'm so tick headed that when I don't find an app(youtube) I can't settle with a 3rd party alternative? No. Do I want to game? Sure. But I mostly want to game casual games. For heavy titles I don't have battery or time and I can have a better experience on my console.
One think I can guarantee you though. The WP OS is the safest smartphone OS at this moment. You have jailbreak and exploits on iOS and the need for an antivirus on android(who wont do much anyway). And for a person like me with a lot of accounts tied in and accounts linked to PayPal and other services where I store money or confidential data this is important.
rockstarzzz
New member
What about 7.8 live tile issue? It was a bug in the update, caught, fixed and re-released. It only reached probably 20-30% of users as the update rolls out and doesn't go to everyone on the same day. So when they realised it, they stopped roll out - a fixed one will roll out to rest, those few who got bug, will get a fix. I don't see any stability "issue" unless you want to make one out of it. Irrelevant.
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