[Totalfixation]

Lately I've been seeing sales of the Lumia 520 and it occurred to me why are they selling phones at break even or at a lost? I understand there are some key reasons to lowering the cost of the phone, as low as $50 dollars, but at the same time should they release such a low margin phone? I know they're trying to get developing countries and low budget minded people to buy into the system. But what I also don't understand is why not release full updates to people running Windows Phone 7. I have a few phone still running the dated OS and would love to give it to people as a gift to use. I wouldn't want to give them brand new Lumia 520s because they lack key hardware features, such as flash. The thing is these outdated WP7 have much better quality specs than the Lumia 520. If Microsoft wants to spread the ecosystem they could update the older phones and give people the opportunity to use/buy apps belonging to WP8. Thus adding a better experience for the users. Also Stocks of WP7 can be repackage to add now supporting WP8. I feel MS is trying very hard to broaden their ecosystem and I think they could do this and possible give old stock away as a purchase package.

[TechAbstract]

WP7 and WP8 may look the same on the surface but they are different under the hood. WP7 is based on Windows CE kernel. Windows NT kernel is found on WP8, Windows RT, Windows workstation/server OS, and Xbox One. WP8 is made for dual core CPU and up, so there is that too. Microsoft doesn't think it would be a good idea to spend too much resources to upgrade to WP8.

[pedrodg28]

WP7 and WP8 may look the same on the surface but they are different under the hood. WP7 is based on Windows CE kernel. Windows NT kernel is found on WP8, Windows RT, Windows workstation/server OS, and Xbox One. WP8 is made for dual core CPU and up, so there is that too. Microsoft doesn't think it would be a good idea to spend too much resources to upgrade to WP8.

It's not that they doesn't think that is a good idea, but that they don't want to spend the money, thus forcing the wp7 using to upgrade to wp8.

[jmshub]

If it were technically possible to reliably load WP8 on first gen WP7 devices, Microsoft would have done that and avoided the hit the press gave them when it was announced that WP7 devices wouldn't get WP8.

[SnailUK]

WP7 sold pathetically badly.

It's hardly a surprise Microsoft decided that holding WP8 back by having to support single core devices was a bad idea.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Memitim]

WP7 is based on the old WindowsCE kernel, WP8 is based on the WindowsNT kernel

The NT kernel won't run on hardware that was designed for the CE kernel without major changes which is costly and time consuming.

Those resources are far better spent on improving WP8 than trying to port the NT kernel to work on CE devices.

[anony_mouse]

I expect WP8 could run on WP7 phones which have sufficiently good hardware (single core chips should not be a problem - Windows NT can run on a single core). There's very little incentive for them to do so, though. Giving old phones as gifts is a nice idea, but for Microsoft and the OEMs, the benefits of upgrading the old phones are minimal.

[Memitim]

I expect WP8 could run on WP7 phones which have sufficiently good hardware (single core chips should not be a problem - Windows NT can run on a single core). There's very little incentive for them to do so, though. Giving old phones as gifts is a nice idea, but for Microsoft and the OEMs, the benefits of upgrading the old phones are minimal.

It's not about the performance of the hardware, it's about the architecture of the hardware

[anony_mouse]

It's not about the performance of the hardware, it's about the architecture of the hardware

Please could you explain? What is so different about the architecture of a WP8 phone compared to a WP7 phone?

[Memitim]

Please could you explain? What is so different about the architecture of a WP8 phone compared to a WP7 phone?

It has to do with how the kernel communicates with the CPU, WP7 phones used a Qualcomm Scorpion CPU where as WP8 phones use Qualcomm Krait CPU's

The kernel needs to be programmed to know how to talk to the CPU and MS had already spent a considerable amount of time and money just to get the NT kernel to work on ARM based CPU's and WP7 made up such a small market share that it wasn't worth it for them to spend more time and money to make it work with WP7 CPU's

[anony_mouse]

It has to do with how the kernel communicates with the CPU, WP7 phones used a Qualcomm Scorpion CPU where as WP8 phones use Qualcomm Krait CPU's

The kernel needs to be programmed to know how to talk to the CPU and MS had already spent a considerable amount of time and money just to get the NT kernel to work on ARM based CPU's and WP7 made up such a small market share that it wasn't worth it for them to spend more time and money to make it work with WP7 CPU's

Well, I agree it's not worth Microsoft's time and money to do it, but I don't believe that there is any fundamental reason why it can't be done. It would be a much simpler job than porting from x86 to ARM and the kernel should be written in such a way that it could be done fairly easily.
Is WP8 really limited to a single Qualcomm line of chips?!

[Memitim]

Well, I agree it's not worth Microsoft's time and money to do it, but I don't believe that there is any fundamental reason why it can't be done. It would be a much simpler job than porting from x86 to ARM and the kernel should be written in such a way that it could be done fairly easily.
Is WP8 really limited to a single Qualcomm line of chips?!

Well MS had to update WP8 to support the Snapdragon 800 chip for the 1520, so yes the OS only supports what it has been coded for and MS will add support for new processors as they come out and manufactures want to use them in WP devices.

[Pete]

1. It would be a huge effort to recode the OS to cope with two different chipsets
2. WP7 devices aren't really fast enough to use WP8 without lagging
3. App developers would have to code for differences in hardware
4. The OS would grow in size
5. Apps would also grow in size
6. The user base for WP7 devices is relatively small and decreasing steadily as people get handset upgrades or swap contracts.

As much as I understand the guys with WP7 devices locked to a contract wanting WP8, it's just not going to work out. WP8 is pretty mature these days, so why not simply get an unlocked WP8 device off eBay (pretty cheap these days) and slap your SIM into it.

[anony_mouse]

I'm not arguing that Microsoft should update WP7 phones to WP8, but I think many people here overestimate the technical difficulty in doing so. I do have some experience of porting OSes between chipsets and processor types...

1. It would be a huge effort to recode the OS to cope with two different chipsets

I don't believe this is true. Most of the OS is not affected. Some drivers and perhaps a Board Support Module (which is a kind of driver) may have to be changed. The rest of the OS remains the same (that's why it has a driver layer), unless it is extremely badly designed (which it isn't). Getting, for example, Linux or Android running on a new chipset is not a huge problem and manufacturers do this regularly and routinely.
Manufacturers anyway will likely have to include different drivers as other parts of the phone will differ between models - touchscreen, buttons, etc. I've seen an experienced engineer get Linux up and running on a new device within a few hours!

2. WP7 devices aren't really fast enough to use WP8 without lagging

Possibly true.

3. App developers would have to code for differences in hardware

Why? WP apps run within a Common Language Runtime (like a Java Virtual Machine, or Dalvik on Android) on WP8 - this makes them independent not only from the chipset but even the processor type!
I don't know if WP allows native code to run, but even this is highly unlikely to be dependent on a specific chipset. Differences between chipsets and other devices are abstracted by the OS.

4. The OS would grow in size

I don't see why. A device only needs to include drivers (etc) for the hardware it actually contains. The architecture to support different drivers is already present in Windows NT.

5. Apps would also grow in size

I don't think so. See above. A fundamental function of an OS is to abstract the applications from the underlying hardware. WP does this.

6. The user base for WP7 devices is relatively small and decreasing steadily as people get handset upgrades or swap contracts.

I agree.

[Memitim]

Remember that they would also need to code drivers for all the radios in the older phones, so that's Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, GSM/3G, GPS and the other hardware in the phones, cameras, display, graphics chipset etc.

That's a lot of work for a platform that had very few adopters.

[anony_mouse]

Remember that they would also need to code drivers for all the radios in the older phones, so that's Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, GSM/3G, GPS and the other hardware in the phones, cameras, display, graphics chipset etc.

That's a lot of work for a platform that had very few adopters.

As I said, I don't advocate that Microsoft should do it. There's little incentive to support obsolete devices. But I would be surprised if the drivers would be very hard. Both WP7 and WP8 run on Qualcomm hardware. Hardware interfaces are likely the same or similar. And much could probably for reused from the old Windows CE drivers, and maybe even from Linux/Android too.

A more interesting question (but not really on topic for this thread) is whether Microsoft would be better to leave this kind of porting and driver development to manufacturers and chipset makers. It would save Microsoft effort and allow others to innovate and use Windows Phone in a wider range of products. It would also reduce the risk that Microsoft 'back the wrong horse' and choose uncompetitive chipsets.

[DavidinCT]

Wow, talk about going back. When Windows Phone 8 was first announced every WP forum was COVERED with this exact subject. In fact I bet you could go back some times on this site or others like PPCgeeks or xda, and find plenty of topics on this subject.

In a nut shell.
1. As it MIGHT be possible to run WP8 on WP7 device, it would suffer major performance problems and Apps would also run into major problem (mainly games), as the WP experience is great, MS wanted to keep it this way, so there is NO upgrade path for WP8 (it is possible Look up the HTC HD2, it was a WM 6.5 device, it runs WM, WP7, WP8 and Android but, this was a known MS testing phone so drivers were there for it).
2. Hardware needed to be more advanced as people are looking at specs...

No question, It could of run but, even then, would you really of wanted to ? If your stuck in a contract, find a few a little older WP8 devices that will work on your network, go on ebay, find a used one for a fair price (a few days searching and you'll end up with a good deal), then swap sims...

It's just not possible and Microsoft WILL NOT make it possible to update a WP7.X device to WP8...

[tqlla3k]

It's not that they doesn't think that is a good idea, but that they don't want to spend the money, thus forcing the wp7 using to upgrade to wp8.

Or forcing users to another platform, where they wont get abandoned in 6 months.

The fact that you cant use WP8 apps on WP7 is terrible.

[fraddy]

I upgraded my Nokia Lumia 800 to a nice Android phone and will probably see a number of WP8+ users crying over MS claiming WP9 needs octacore processors or something else to make sure they're forced to buy new hardware if they want to use a fully-supported MS OS. Windows RT will probably be slaughtered by MS within about a year. They forced people to buy new hardware if they want a new MS Office, a new MS IE - they are not very customer-friendly and will probably keep wondering why they were left behind with 3% of the world smartphone market.

[Donny James]

Its not happening ever, lets move on. Microsoft is a company like any other company that is out to make money. The money and the future is in WP8 so that's where they're going. Even if you upgraded those old phones the hardware would probably give out soon anyway.

[fraddy]

They can make money by building a customer base of loyal supporters or aggressively sell their stuff. Guess what brings better long-term results? They will probably be a niche software provider within about 5-10 years.

[colinkiama]

They can make money by building a customer base of loyal supporters or aggressively sell their stuff. Guess what brings better long-term results? They will probably be a niche software provider within about 5-10 years.

Even if the update existed, you would have so much lag that you would hate Microsoft even more. Please be a loyal customer by upgrading.

[ArthJar]

[...]will probably see a number of WP8+ users crying over MS claiming WP9 needs octacore processors or something else[...]

LOLOLOL
Nice Joke, but that ain't gonna happen soon.

[fraddy]

6.5 --> 7.0, 7.5 --> 8.0 and you're saying they won't do it again?

[anon5644628]

Or forcing users to another platform, where they wont get abandoned in 6 months.

Fabulous thought process. I imagine that's exactly what you're pondering as your next move. Me, too.