08-21-2014 09:38 AM
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  1. A895's Avatar
    I said before that there are pros and cons to every mobile OS/strategy, and the fragmentation issue is a huge one for Android.

    Regarding your question how I expect so many to stay current, the reality is that there's not hundreds of millions of different models, so the install base argument is fairly moot.

    But regardless, there's definitely a ton of Android models out there, from a wide range of manufacturers. And you mention feasibility, which I think is a fair point - how can we expect all these OEMs to stay current? And the reality is we probably more than likely couldn't, but that's not because of inherent feasibility due to install base/Android, but rather one of the "benefits" of Android being its double-edge sword. The reason keeping these devices up-to-date becomes so difficult is that the vast majority of OEMs use proprietary software skins. Not only do they take up additional space - as well as, more often than not, decreasing system responsiveness - they require updating in addition to the core OS. It's not upgrading the core OS that's the problem here - the GPe and Nexus devices' quick updates indicate how relatively simple core OS updates are directly from Google - it's the skin updates that seals the fate of so many of these handsets - and that's a huge problem.

    I disagree entirely with the 4.0+ being a good indication of progress. ICS was released in October, 2011. The fact that there's so many phones running an OS from 2.5 years ago is a little troubling to say the least. Even 4.1.x, which if I'm not mistaken is still where the biggest core of the Android install base is, was from 2012 - that's all pretty terrible.

    The 4.3/4.4 numbers, albeit low, have been boosted by the 'best' of circumstances - i.e. a brand new Nexus device, the introduction of the GPe line, and Motorolla's non-GPe devices essentially being stock Android with a few additions.

    And I'm not saying Nexus devices are the best of the best, but it's very commonly that the Android community will tell you that the real Android experience can only be found there (or the GPe devices).

    But again, the marketshare argument is moot - WP would more than likely easily able to do the same updating of scale at 50% that they get currently. As I mentioned in both posts, these updates are core OS updates and don't require feasibility studies regarding custom skins; MS hands them the update and they can easily push it to their devices - just the same way the GPe devices quickly update. When all you're focusing on is the core OS, and the company is handing you the update it simplifies things greatly.
    Either way it does not matter because in the end, the consumer does not care about updates. They care about what their phone is capable of doing now. I highly doubt the speed of updates on WP would still be the same if their market share was ever like Androids. Others is still carriers to deal with. They can't push updates straight to the phone like iOS.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-20-2014 11:16 PM
  2. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Coming back on topic - please can someone explain WHY Microsoft do not allow other browsers on WP. No one has yet posted a single reason.
    04-21-2014 03:56 AM
  3. Dratwister's Avatar
    Coming back on topic - please can someone explain WHY Microsoft do not allow other browsers on WP. No one has yet posted a single reason.
    I believe because of security reasons :) And surely Microsoft's working on it in order to "open" it while keeping it secure enough (kinda like Chrome on iOS... but heck, that PoS is really unusable), isn't Chrome arriving to WP?
    IMO, I don't know why I should download any other 3rd party browsers rather than IE11 (except for that nonsense hatred toward IE from web developers all over the internet, that cannot even try to obey W3C rules and like to stick with moz- or webkit-)

    P.S: Though your question isn't this topic either :)

    Either way it does not matter because in the end, the consumer does not care about updates. They care about what their phone is capable of doing now. I highly doubt the speed of updates on WP would still be the same if their market share was ever like Androids. Others is still carriers to deal with. They can't push updates straight to the phone like iOS.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    Not everyone though :) Not every countries give carriers such power like US (the reason why is still a mystery to me). In my country, people just buy a phones at full price, then sign a data mobile contract with carriers then done. :) We're free to use any phone we like, change phone whenever we love and still keep current contract.
    Hence, we don't need to wait for "approve" from carrier but just for entire country :)
    Bram Vanroy likes this.
    04-21-2014 04:24 AM
  4. Bram Vanroy's Avatar
    Coming back on topic - please can someone explain WHY Microsoft do not allow other browsers on WP. No one has yet posted a single reason.
    Probably a number of reasons, but you should've read the articles I posted on the previous page.

    - The main reason might be to increase IE's market share on mobile.
    - Personally, I think the reason above is possible, but no the one of the biggest concerns to MS. Just look at the browser war on Windows 8 RT (i.e. W8 on lower-end tablets). MS didn't allow third-party browser for some reasons:

    1. security: a web browser is probably the main tunnel where viruses come through. IE has its SmartScreen filter, but MS doesn't "trust" 3rd party browsers. They might not have the best security, or foolproof malware defence.
    2. browsing experience: MS knows the OS from the inside out, and subsequently knows how to tweak the browser and integrate it completely into the OS. MS could allow devs to integrate others' browser in the UI, though
    3. additional requirements: I know that for W8RT there was a hazzle about the ARM structure and other browsers not being able to utilise all of its resources, but I can't really remember.

    As I said in my previous post, it seems like it's going both ways:
    Google and others do not try hard enough (I am yet to see a press release of Google being angry at MS for not allowing Chrome). Google refused to bring any of its services to WP. Luckily, as the links in my previous post illustrate, Google is now investigating the possibility of porting Chrome to WP8. Google has made a concession, now we'll have to wait for MS's reply.
    04-21-2014 04:25 AM
  5. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Quick reply:
    - to increase IE's market share. I don't see why any customer would care about that. Isn't it more important to make customers happy?
    - security. I doubt the browser is the main conduit for viruses on mobile, but if anyone has evidence to the contrary we can look at it. Actually, diversity in browsers might well improve security. It means that a bug in one browser will compromise fewer people, as not everyone will be using the affected browser. It also gives users another option until the bug is fixed. Competition may also spur on innovation.

    Btw, chrome on iOS is not a good reference. I understand it uses Apple's rendering engine, not Google's, as similar restrictions are in place. Again, I'm happy to be corrected if this is wrong.
    04-21-2014 05:23 AM
  6. Bram Vanroy's Avatar
    The consumer does not care in a sense, no - but every software builder wants that his software is used. Therefore, MS wants to oblige the user to use their browser. If the user accepts the browser and is content with it, he may even start using IE on desktops again - hence enlarging IE's share on desktop as well.

    What I meant with security is that when there is a bug, or a security leak MS can fix it as quickly as possible without depending on anyone. If it's a third party company, however, MS has to wait for that company to bring out a fix. This can take months, or even years - and because of this users may think that it's WP's fault that they are prone to viruses and hackers, whereas it is actually the browser's fault.

    It has a lot to do with saving their own face in case something goes wrong with the third party app, I guess - even though they are indeed shooting themselves in the foot as well.
    04-21-2014 06:24 AM
  7. anony_mouse's Avatar
    If Microsoft are so concerned about third party apps bringing security holes, they should ban them altogether. They still control the App Store, so they can also remove apps with security problems (probably even from your phone).
    I can understand that Microsoft want to increase the use of IE, but again I don't understand why any *user* of WP would defend this.
    04-21-2014 06:30 AM
  8. A895's Avatar
    I believe because of security reasons :) And surely Microsoft's working on it in order to "open" it while keeping it secure enough (kinda like Chrome on iOS... but heck, that PoS is really unusable), isn't Chrome arriving to WP?
    IMO, I don't know why I should download any other 3rd party browsers rather than IE11 (except for that nonsense hatred toward IE from web developers all over the internet, that cannot even try to obey W3C rules and like to stick with moz- or webkit-)

    P.S: Though your question isn't this topic either :)



    Not everyone though :) Not every countries give carriers such power like US (the reason why is still a mystery to me). In my country, people just buy a phones at full price, then sign a data mobile contract with carriers then done. :) We're free to use any phone we like, change phone whenever we love and still keep current contract.
    Hence, we don't need to wait for "approve" from carrier but just for entire country :)
    :thumbup:

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-21-2014 06:35 AM
  9. A895's Avatar
    Quick reply:
    - to increase IE's market share. I don't see why any customer would care about that. Isn't it more important to make customers happy?
    - security. I doubt the browser is the main conduit for viruses on mobile, but if anyone has evidence to the contrary we can look at it. Actually, diversity in browsers might well improve security. It means that a bug in one browser will compromise fewer people, as not everyone will be using the affected browser. It also gives users another option until the bug is fixed. Competition may also spur on innovation.

    Btw, chrome on iOS is not a good reference. I understand it uses Apple's rendering engine, not Google's, as similar restrictions are in place. Again, I'm happy to be corrected if this is wrong.
    You are correct. Apple does not allow other browsers to use desperate engines than Safari. Chrome while using the same engine allows chrome sync and whatnot. Really third party browsers are like a skin for Safari, it might have some added features like tab sync and password saving but that's it.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-21-2014 06:38 AM
  10. A895's Avatar
    The consumer does not care in a sense, no - but every software builder wants that his software is used. Therefore, MS wants to oblige the user to use their browser. If the user accepts the browser and is content with it, he may even start using IE on desktops again - hence enlarging IE's share on desktop as well.

    What I meant with security is that when there is a bug, or a security leak MS can fix it as quickly as possible without depending on anyone. If it's a third party company, however, MS has to wait for that company to bring out a fix. This can take months, or even years - and because of this users may think that it's WP's fault that they are prone to viruses and hackers, whereas it is actually the browser's fault.

    It has a lot to do with saving their own face in case something goes wrong with the third party app, I guess - even though they are indeed shooting themselves in the foot as well.
    I'm pretty sure IE 11 is a built in app and therefore can only be updated with OS updates right? Cause, if that's the case that is not a good idea. I doubt using a third party app is that disastrous, it's actually a good idea, I doing someone will make a browser and abandon it for a few months if something is wrong with it.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-21-2014 06:41 AM
  11. FearL0rd's Avatar
    IE 11 improves a lot but still not as good as Chrome in Android.

    Today I was comparing IE 11 with by brothers Android phone.
    I am not going to talk about speed here but the things IE can't do but Chrome can do.

    1. IE 11 still can't open sites which open with pop ups.
    It's quite annoying that WP IE 11 can only open sites which doesn't have pop's just like old JAVA or S40 phones.
    Come on MS, it's 2014 a smartphone era and IE 11 still sames level as old phones now.

    2. IE in WP8.1 still crashes like WP 8 when we open heavy sites. I notice IE 11 very often crashes and struggle to open sites like Phonearena.com but Chrome easily open and very fluidly works without any crashes.

    If anyone of you have Android phone you can confirm it your self.

    I don't know if IE for WP8.1 is still a beta or a stable version but it still needs lots of improvement.
    I thought MS is going to fix this in next update but they didn't.
    I think these are pretty basic thing that a good browser must do.
    What you guys think?
    I can open Phonearena.com without any problems here in my 920 with WP8.1. actually I access this site every day without problems

    wp_ss_20140421_0001_zpsb896db45.jpg
    04-21-2014 07:00 AM
  12. FearL0rd's Avatar
    Android only works with 4CORE or 8CORE CPUS... The emulated crap system uses a lot of resources. Looks like they are fixing it in KK

    04-21-2014 07:07 AM
  13. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure IE 11 is a built in app and therefore can only be updated with OS updates right? Cause, if that's the case that is not a good idea. I doubt using a third party app is that disastrous, it's actually a good idea, I doing someone will make a browser and abandon it for a few months if something is wrong with it.
    That's a very good point. Can someone confirm if IE is indeed only updatable via an OS update? That means security problems will take much longer to be fixed. I believe this is also the case on iOS. On Android, Chrome can be and is updated separately and updates are quite frequent. I don't know if this also updates the embedded WebView, which is potentially just as dangerous as a full browser (on all platforms).
    A895 likes this.
    04-21-2014 07:09 AM
  14. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Android only works with 4CORE or 8CORE CPUS... The emulated crap system uses a lot of resources. Looks like they are fixing it in KK
    That's obviously not true.
    What do you mean by 'emulated crap system'? Are you referring to the Dalvik virtual machine? As far as I know, this is rather similar to the CLR in WP, which can also be seen as an emulator. Aren't Android and WP actually very similar in this respect?
    (I've asked this several times on this forum and have never had an answer).
    04-21-2014 07:14 AM
  15. A895's Avatar
    Android only works with 4CORE or 8CORE CPUS... The emulated crap system uses a lot of resources. Looks like they are fixing it in KK
    Crap system? Enlighten us with some facts, and sources.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-21-2014 07:37 AM
  16. FearL0rd's Avatar
    Crap system? Enlighten us with some facts, and sources.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    All my old Android phones freezes and lags every time and I gave up... My old GS2 and GS3 freeze all the time. This is my experience.

    My fried has a new phone with KK and looks like they fixed the problem now. but all new phones has a lot of CPU power.

    Just search on the internet and I will find 1000's of topics talking about this.
    Galaxy S3: Common Problems Users Have, and How to Fix Them | Digital Trends
    Last edited by FearL0rd; 04-21-2014 at 08:27 AM.
    04-21-2014 08:14 AM
  17. Bram Vanroy's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure IE 11 is a built in app and therefore can only be updated with OS updates right? Cause, if that's the case that is not a good idea. I doubt using a third party app is that disastrous, it's actually a good idea, I doing someone will make a browser and abandon it for a few months if something is wrong with it.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    Hm, good point. IE Mobile (10/11) doesn't have a large market share yet, so hackers/malicious developers are not fully focusing their attention on it. However, if IE's share increases, more security leaks will arise. I do hope that these can be fixed and pushed without needing a complete software update.

    I do believe, however, that this shouldn't be too big of a problem. Just think of how IE is updated on desktop. It updates in Windows Update, together with other updates. And that isn't a problem. The problem is, however, that 8.1 has the option to automatically install app updates, but the question is whether this applies to OS specific apps such as IE. How can MS push updates for IE then? Forcing automatic updates of the OS? But not everyone likes that.

    Interesting question - but possibly slightly off-topic.
    04-21-2014 08:37 AM
  18. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    Coming back on topic - please can someone explain WHY Microsoft do not allow other browsers on WP. No one has yet posted a single reason.
    Huh?

    UC Browser | Windows Phone Apps+Games Store (United States)
    04-21-2014 08:59 AM
  19. A895's Avatar
    All my old Android phones freezes and lags every time and I gave up... My old GS2 and GS3 freeze all the time. This is my experience.]
    You said it. They are OLD.
    04-21-2014 09:37 AM
  20. A895's Avatar
    I`m pretty sure UC Browser still uses the same engine as IE, WP is like iOS, there are other browsers but they aren`t necessarily different browsers. Differences are only skin deep in other words.
    04-21-2014 09:40 AM
  21. Dantekai14's Avatar
    I can open Phonearena.com without any problems here in my 920 with WP8.1. actually I access this site every day without problems

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I think it may be a problem with only 512MB RAM devices or may be worse .......Just me.

    But you can't excess sites which open with pop ups.
    Try link which I had given you and tell me can you able to open that?

    That link work just fine on Chrome but not on IE11
    04-21-2014 09:43 AM
  22. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I`m pretty sure UC Browser still uses the same engine as IE, WP is like iOS, there are other browsers but they aren`t necessarily different browsers. Differences are only skin deep in other words.
    Thanks, you beat me to it. That's exactly the point. Apologies to all for my imprecise use of terminology.
    A895 likes this.
    04-21-2014 09:56 AM
  23. chezm's Avatar
    At a high level and not having used WP8.1 IE11, used IE10 along with Chrome Android and Safari/Chrome iPhone, i much prefer IE's mobile browser. I find the browser to be super responsive, fluid and the minimalist approach is nice/clean. Again, while im sort of off topic since im not using IE11 (and fixed the 1 problem i had with the browser which was the forward/back integration) i think MS have done a great job with their mobile browser experience. While on my PC i sadly prefer Chrome mainly because it actually saves ALL my needed passwords, it slows my PC's down to crawl.
    04-21-2014 09:56 AM
  24. gsshim's Avatar
    Just disappointed with IE11's browsing speed.

    I have both of nexus 5 and lumia 1520. They have almost same CPU(snapdragon 800 processor) and ram(2GB) so i though they would show similar browsing speed at least.

    But chrome beta running on nexus 5 is way faster than IE11 on lumia 1520.

    There's huge gap between them.

    And how's new swipe back in IE 11. Even if you swiped back, screen is just showing gray scaled page for 0.5 sec till you can actually browse the page which is so annoying.

    It cannot be compared to swipeback of safari(iphone) or qq browser(android) at all.

    And yeah, i know it's just developer preview not for general users so just hope IE 11 got better till release of WP 8.1 rtm.
    04-21-2014 10:10 AM
  25. FearL0rd's Avatar
    At a high level and not having used WP8.1 IE11, used IE10 along with Chrome Android and Safari/Chrome iPhone, i much prefer IE's mobile browser. I find the browser to be super responsive, fluid and the minimalist approach is nice/clean. Again, while im sort of off topic since im not using IE11 (and fixed the 1 problem i had with the browser which was the forward/back integration) i think MS have done a great job with their mobile browser experience. While on my PC i sadly prefer Chrome mainly because it actually saves ALL my needed passwords, it slows my PC's down to crawl.
    Now, IE11 Saves all your passwords and share with all your windows 8.1 devices too. I'm loving it.
    I was a big user of Firefox now I moved back to IE
    04-21-2014 10:11 AM
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