06-22-2014 06:40 AM
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  1. ricbon's Avatar
    hell no we knew this type of **** would happen and even the risk of bricking or breaking warranty.
    04-21-2014 03:29 PM
  2. Highdefjunkie's Avatar
    Hell no! The dev preview of iOS 7 was far, far buggier then this.
    04-21-2014 03:41 PM
  3. AngrySprintUser's Avatar
    04-21-2014 04:19 PM
  4. Chris_Germany's Avatar
    I don't care we all knew that there is a risk with the preview, so stop crying.

    - Tapatalk -
    neo158 and hopmedic like this.
    04-21-2014 05:51 PM
  5. hopmedic's Avatar
    It's more like the final beta test before final release.
    Um. No. These are the bits sent to the manufacturers. Yes, there may come a patch, but that's like saying every month that Windows 8 is still beta because every month it gets new patches. No. This is the final product just like what you have on your PC is the final product. They don't send it to manufacturers while in beta.
    04-21-2014 07:16 PM
  6. link68759's Avatar
    Um. No. These are the bits sent to the manufacturers. Yes, there may come a patch, but that's like saying every month that Windows 8 is still beta because every month it gets new patches. No. This is the final product just like what you have on your PC is the final product. They don't send it to manufacturers while in beta.
    People need to stop arguing semantics.

    Any significant glitches discovered in this preview will likely be addressed in time for the final release to carriers. Then we won't see anything until the next GDR.

    "Preview", "beta", whatever, don't get your panties in a bunch over it. This is not the absolute final release of this version- and no, those changes are not comparable to the monthly updates on desktop *because we don't get monthly updates on WP*. WP is definitively sectioned into versions, and we aren't on the final release of this version. Microsoft would be stupid to not smooth out the issues some users have with even just installing the preview- or to address some of the issues they are no doubt receiving with their newly released diagnostics app. The preview is not just for the benefit of the consumer- I'm sure MS is using us as a focus test group to better prepare for the real release.

    Keep in mind that whatever is on the manufacturer's devices, the carrier branded version will still be stamped on them, and the true final release will be what MS sends to the carriers. With that in mind, a person may colloquially refer to the current version was a 'beta' and not be far off the mark. He did say "_it's more like_ the final beta test"- there's nothing worth correcting about that statement.

    RTM for phones is not equivalent to RTM for PC
    Last edited by link68759; 04-21-2014 at 07:54 PM.
    04-21-2014 07:43 PM
  7. TaichiSurface's Avatar
    music app is terrible but I guess they can update it. I hope they do it soon, it's still usable but painful to use. Other than that, there are still some feature announced but not released in this preview, would love to see those soon.
    04-21-2014 07:58 PM
  8. dorelse's Avatar
    Um. No. These are the bits sent to the manufacturers. Yes, there may come a patch, but that's like saying every month that Windows 8 is still beta because every month it gets new patches. No. This is the final product just like what you have on your PC is the final product. They don't send it to manufacturers while in beta.
    I work for a Big Blue software, hardware and services corporation...we ship Beta code to vendors & 'Early Adopter Members' all the time...and with major functional gaps missing too. We have trusted vendors that we may bring on site so they can install their software or send a development team so they can get educated on the API's and help us test our code. After a certain stability is reached, we may allow a beta (more like alpha) test to occur by those with contractual NDA's (one's that are actually enforced).

    MS will absolutely respin a fresh image when the bugs that meet a certain severity criteria are all dealt with, and may tack on a fixpack as part of the post install process.

    If you work for a large software vendor, I don't need to explain the process in any detail...if you don't, it might be hard to understand.

    Software releases are very fluid at this point, we could spin up a fresh beta, RTM, RC, whatever you want to call it, within an hour and have it on our early adopter FTP site by lunchtime. Its all automated and pulls in approved code from each development area to build a fresh image.

    ​That's just how the process works...no, I don't know MS's process, but I've worked with enough large vendors to know that at a high level, they all follow a pretty standard SDLC.

    If you mean final feature set, I'd agree with that, 100%. I'd say that's locked in.
    04-21-2014 10:06 PM
  9. MikeSo's Avatar
    MS will absolutely respin a fresh image when the bugs that meet a certain severity criteria are all dealt with, and may tack on a fixpack as part of the post install process.
    MS did that. THIS IS THAT IMAGE.
    hopmedic and gmlongo like this.
    04-22-2014 01:31 AM
  10. slyronit's Avatar
    The answer is "NO". I upgraded my phone, my wife's phone and three of my friends' and the update was seamless for all of them and they don't face any issue at all.

    This Preview is "supposed to be for developers", as the name says. If people don't want to face any issues, they can wait for the official release.

    Given the level of negativity on the forums, do people think that it was a mistake to allow the general public to download the Preview for Developers?

    It's not that I feel the criticism of the build is unjustified - trust me, I've had my fair share of issues and I do feel that somehow something has been lost in the transition between 8.0 and 8.1

    My question is more, has it been oversold as somehow the "finished article" when it isn't? Should this have been better explained? Should people outside the developer community have had access especially as manufacturers hadn't released updated firmware?
    04-22-2014 03:50 AM
  11. anony_mouse's Avatar
    This thread is people who work for large software companies and understand the development and release process arguing with those who don't.

    You can decide for yourself which you choose to believe.
    04-22-2014 04:45 AM
  12. mikeycl's Avatar
    MS did that. THIS IS THAT IMAGE.
    I hate having to repost but feel it is necessary

    Despite some of the best efforts of users in this thread there really is a lot of confusion.

    I was hoping my Post on an alternate thread would help clarify things.

    To everyone saying this is a beta. No it ISN'T. This is RTM (Release To Manufacturers).
    To those saying this is a final build. This is NOT a final build.

    This RTM version is feature frozen, which (as previously stated in my other post) means that everything you see and interact with is not going to change in regards to functionality and UI. More builds are going to be released (just as they were with GDR3) that will fix any bugs and issues found by both Manufacturers developing handsets and drivers for their handsets, and by those of us who have volunteered to use the Developer Preview program.

    Towards the end of May (based on articles i have read, i'll find links and add them shortly) the new handsets and the GA (General Availability) of Windows Phone 8.1 will mean that we will all receive the final build version with a number of, if not all, the bugs resolved and ironed out.

    Whilst i dont want to criticise people for their naivety in signing up for the dev preview and are now complaining that they have bugs and issues. It is however a gamble that you agreed to take when volunteering to participate in such a program.

    If you do have problems then i really do feel sorry for you and hope that your issues are resolved ASAP so you can begin to enjoy using this OS in the same way i have on my Lumia 925.

    At the same time it would be worth asking the community here for help or workarounds to your issues until they are fixed properly by either the handset manufacturer or Microsoft.
    04-22-2014 04:48 AM
  13. dorelse's Avatar
    I hate having to repost but feel it is necessary

    Despite some of the best efforts of users in this thread there really is a lot of confusion.

    I was hoping my Post on an alternate thread would help clarify things.

    To everyone saying this is a beta. No it ISN'T. This is RTM (Release To Manufacturers).
    To those saying this is a final build. This is NOT a final build.

    This RTM version is feature frozen, which (as previously stated in my other post) means that everything you see and interact with is not going to change in regards to functionality and UI. More builds are going to be released (just as they were with GDR3) that will fix any bugs and issues found by both Manufacturers developing handsets and drivers for their handsets, and by those of us who have volunteered to use the Developer Preview program.

    Towards the end of May (based on articles i have read, i'll find links and add them shortly) the new handsets and the GA (General Availability) of Windows Phone 8.1 will mean that we will all receive the final build version with a number of, if not all, the bugs resolved and ironed out.

    Whilst i dont want to criticise people for their naivety in signing up for the dev preview and are now complaining that they have bugs and issues. It is however a gamble that you agreed to take when volunteering to participate in such a program.

    If you do have problems then i really do feel sorry for you and hope that your issues are resolved ASAP so you can begin to enjoy using this OS in the same way i have on my Lumia 925.

    At the same time it would be worth asking the community here for help or workarounds to your issues until they are fixed properly by either the handset manufacturer or Microsoft.
    You and I are posting the same clarifications, just on different threads.

    If they don't understand the complex SDLC that large software vendors go through, the relationships they have with vendors, etc, they'll never get it. Those of us who work in that environment aren't sweating this one bit.

    Those that keep spouting that the DP is the final image simply don't understand how SDLC works.
    mikeycl likes this.
    04-22-2014 09:35 AM
  14. hopmedic's Avatar
    On October 14, 2014, build 8.0.10501.127 was one of the builds released to the Preview for Developers program. Which build you got depended on which phone you had. This happened to be the build I got.
    Windows Phone 8 update history | Windows Phone How-to (United States)
    Introducing Windows Phone Preview for Developers
    (The blog only speaks of build 10512, but 10501 is obviously an earlier build than 10512, and many of us got it, as did many in the public, as shown below)

    On October 22, Sprint's HTC 8XT became the first phone to receive GDR3 through the public channel. The build was 8.0.10501.127
    Windows Phone Update 3 now available for the Sprint HTC 8XT | Windows Phone Central (search the page for the comment with the build number).

    On October 28, the HTC 8X around the world (Except US) received GDR3. No one reported that build number.
    HTC 8X receiving Update 3 around the world | Windows Phone Central

    On October 29, the HTC 8X on ATT was updated to GDR3, build number 8.0.10501.127.
    HTC 8X on AT&T joins its International sibling, receives Windows Phone Update 3 | Windows Phone Central

    On December 10, we received the 8.0.10521.155 update (on preview)
    http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...521-155-a.html

    On February 11, my Lumia 928 received the Black update from Nokia, while other 928s all around the country were also getting GDR3, or "Update 3".
    Lumia Black now available for the Lumia 928 on Verizon | Windows Phone Central

    History demonstrates that the same build that went to the Preview for Developers was sent out the public channel to several phones. To those who say that the build we are running is not a final build, a build intended for public consumption, I submit to you documentation from the history of the Preview for Developers program, that your claims are based on false assumptions. Please provide links to documentation if you wish to disprove me.
    Last edited by hopmedic; 04-22-2014 at 10:15 AM.
    04-22-2014 10:02 AM
  15. hopmedic's Avatar
    Those that keep spouting that the DP is the final image simply don't understand how SDLC works.
    Actually, I do.
    04-22-2014 10:03 AM
  16. troylytle's Avatar
    Hop, I would say with this being a much bigger release, we are not running a final version. Especially with the bugs, which is one of the reasons to put out such a preview program. I think with this preview we can compare bigger releases using this as a control. I would think we can only compare smaller updates to update three because the current update changes so much on the operating level where update three just gave us some add-on features. And I remember the fuss everyone had over it last time.
    04-22-2014 10:10 AM
  17. Jas00555's Avatar
    Actually, I do.
    You don't think that there will be post-RTM fixes that Microsoft will collaborate with OEMs on? What I've heard seems to indicate that there will be something. I mean, I haven't had any problems so I don't really need a fix, but for the small, vocal minority who have had problems, I hope there will be a fix. They may come with the firmware, but I suspect that there will be some bug fixes.
    04-22-2014 10:14 AM
  18. hopmedic's Avatar
    You don't think that there will be post-RTM fixes that Microsoft will collaborate with OEMs on? What I've heard seems to indicate that there will be something. I mean, I haven't had any problems so I don't really need a fix, but for the small, vocal minority who have had problems, I hope there will be a fix. They may come with the firmware, but I suspect that there will be some bug fixes.
    Never have I said that there would not be patches. I have actually stated to the contrary. My assertion is that what we have has been released to manufacturers, very much as a public-ready product. Evidenced by the links above, this is what the preview was with GDR3 - it was the actual build that was released to the public, and it was actually more than two months later that we received an update. My "actually, I do" comment is only that I do understand the software development life cycle, the SDLC abbreviation that someone used to try to obfuscate what he was saying from mere mortals. Microsoft will obviously put out post-RTM fixes. Whether they come before or after public release, though, is immaterial to the discussion.

    All along I have not disputed that there is the chance that Microsoft will push out an update, which could come before or after public release of 8.1. My assertion, though, is that WP8.1 is as final a release now that it has been RTMd as Windows 8.1 was when it was RTMd. Updates will come as needed. That does not mean that the intent was to use us as guinea pigs. It also does not mean that the intent was for the release we have to be anything other than a public release version, given to us early. For evidence, look a few posts up where I have provided a history of GDR3's developer preview.
    04-22-2014 10:21 AM
  19. loofmodnar's Avatar
    History demonstrates that the same build that went to the Preview for Developers was sent out the public channel to several phones. To those who say that the build we are running is not a final build, a build intended for public consumption, I submit to you documentation from the history of the Preview for Developers program, that your claims are based on false assumptions. Please provide links to documentation if you wish to disprove me.
    GDR3 was a tiny release compared to 8.1. From what I remember there were almost no reported problems with it. Even so it was eventually updated which lends credence to the theory that an update to the preview is in both possible and based on the size of the release probable. The truth is no one here knows whether this is the final build. People on both sides are just speculating.

    Even the Dev preview FAQ refers to it as: "at least a RTM candidate". (updated as of the 14th)

    There's also this line:
    Is the developer preview version the same as the one in the official RTM roll-out?
    If any critical issues are found in the preview they will be fixed before RTM.

    Developer Preview Program FAQ - Get Windows Phone 8.1 today - Microsoft Community
    04-22-2014 10:24 AM
  20. hopmedic's Avatar
    GDR3 was a tiny release compared to 8.1. From what I remember there were almost no reported problems with it. Even so it was eventually updated which lends credence to the theory that an update to the preview is in both possible and based on the size of the release probable. The truth is no one here knows whether this is the final build. People on both sides are just speculating.

    Even the Dev preview FAQ refers to it as: "at least a RTM candidate". (updated as of the 14th)

    There's also this line:
    Is the developer preview version the same as the one in the official RTM roll-out?
    If any critical issues are found in the preview they will be fixed before RTM.

    Developer Preview Program FAQ - Get Windows Phone 8.1 today - Microsoft Community
    Ok. RTM has already happened.
    Even so, nothing here opposes what I've said.
    04-22-2014 10:27 AM
  21. Jas00555's Avatar
    Never have I said that there would not be patches. I have actually stated to the contrary. My assertion is that what we have has been released to manufacturers, very much as a public-ready product. Evidenced by the links above, this is what the preview was with GDR3 - it was the actual build that was released to the public, and it was actually more than two months later that we received an update. My "actually, I do" comment is only that I do understand the software development life cycle, the SDLC abbreviation that someone used to try to obfuscate what he was saying from mere mortals. Microsoft will obviously put out post-RTM fixes. Whether they come before or after public release, though, is immaterial to the discussion.

    All along I have not disputed that there is the chance that Microsoft will push out an update, which could come before or after public release of 8.1. My assertion, though, is that WP8.1 is as final a release now that it has been RTMd as Windows 8.1 was when it was RTMd. Updates will come as needed. That does not mean that the intent was to use us as guinea pigs. It also does not mean that the intent was for the release we have to be anything other than a public release version, given to us early. For evidence, look a few posts up where I have provided a history of GDR3's developer preview.
    Ah, I see. I agree with your on that then. Also, I just replied to your shorter post because the WPCentral app crapped itself when I quoted the longer one (;
    04-22-2014 10:30 AM
  22. dorelse's Avatar
    Actually, I do.

    If you did, and you worked for a large software vendor you wouldn't keep arguing the same points. Sorry, but I live and breathe this stuff every day.

    You keep pointing and adhereing to the version build numbers...I can release & rebuild the same 'build image number' that pulls in different code, its all built into our packaging & image creator software at work...

    For example, I can build & repackage my image internally 100 times, and still have the same version number, completely different feature set even, if I so choose too...and we frequently do just that.

    MS could have built
    8.0.10521.155, 10 times before they released it...so even IF the version number stays the same, the code underneath could change....OR...they may have a process that downloads an immediate fixpack during the official GA upgrade process. (Unlikely as it would introduce additional risk.)

    When we send our our final GA build, we always repackage it at an easy version number...the version number is irrelevant to a degree...its nothing more than a label.

    You can say you do all you want, but based on your 'evidence'...you don't. I agree that to an outsider what you're saying is logical, but if you're inside the guts of how software is truly bundled & packaged, its not really how it works. Its a lot of organized chaos & constantly changing internal repackaging for weekly builds. Some of those weekly builds we absolutely share with hardware vendors & 3rd party partners.

    The only thing that's true is that our 'final' release is never final. We always have a critical patch that drags, or a higher up that holds the release, so we'll respin the fixpacks into a new final image, and send it...or we'll repackage to an easier number for ease of reference. We do that for the ease of our partners (and ours) deployments...so we don't have to check a 2000 line list of patches...we know that if its build 9.3.0, that all the patches are included in that release.

    Finally, internally, we never ever go by the release number...b/c it always changes...we always have code names, not because anything's a secret necessarily, but because the only guys who call it by a version number are the marketers. (then we're usually like...um...ok?)

    MS will respin all the fixes in the a fresh image...don't know how else to explain it...that's just how it works.


    04-22-2014 10:32 AM
  23. hopmedic's Avatar
    ah, i see. I agree with your on that then. Also, i just replied to your shorter post because the wpcentral app crapped itself when i quoted the longer one (;
    lol!
    04-22-2014 10:32 AM
  24. loofmodnar's Avatar
    Ok. RTM has already happened.
    Even so, nothing here opposes what I've said.
    I'm not trying to oppose anything, just pointing out even MS isn't saying whether this is the RTM build or a different version. The language in the FAQ implies that the preview is pre-RTM.

    All the arguing about whether this is final or not is stupid. Until it's officially released we don't know.
    04-22-2014 10:34 AM
  25. hopmedic's Avatar
    blah blah blah
    stuff I learned more than 20 years ago

    The only thing that's true is that our 'final' release is never final. We always have a critical patch that drags, or a higher up that holds the release, so we'll respin the fixpacks into a new final image, and send it...or we'll repackage to an easier number for ease of reference.
    I've been saying this all along. Welcome to the world of software.

    Finally, internally, we never ever go by the release number...b/c it always changes...we always have code names, not because anything's a secret necessarily, but because the only guys who call it by a version number are the marketers. (then we're usually like...um...ok?)
    You've described your software shop, but not all of them, and not ours. I work for one of the largest banks in America which is part of one of the largest banks in the world.
    Last edited by hopmedic; 04-22-2014 at 10:52 AM.
    04-22-2014 10:39 AM
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