Has Microsoft made a mistake releasing the Preview?

Jas00555

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Never have I said that there would not be patches. I have actually stated to the contrary. My assertion is that what we have has been released to manufacturers, very much as a public-ready product. Evidenced by the links above, this is what the preview was with GDR3 - it was the actual build that was released to the public, and it was actually more than two months later that we received an update. My "actually, I do" comment is only that I do understand the software development life cycle, the SDLC abbreviation that someone used to try to obfuscate what he was saying from mere mortals. Microsoft will obviously put out post-RTM fixes. Whether they come before or after public release, though, is immaterial to the discussion.

All along I have not disputed that there is the chance that Microsoft will push out an update, which could come before or after public release of 8.1. My assertion, though, is that WP8.1 is as final a release now that it has been RTMd as Windows 8.1 was when it was RTMd. Updates will come as needed. That does not mean that the intent was to use us as guinea pigs. It also does not mean that the intent was for the release we have to be anything other than a public release version, given to us early. For evidence, look a few posts up where I have provided a history of GDR3's developer preview.

Ah, I see. I agree with your on that then. Also, I just replied to your shorter post because the WPCentral app crapped itself when I quoted the longer one (;
 

dorelse

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Actually, I do.


If you did, and you worked for a large software vendor you wouldn't keep arguing the same points. Sorry, but I live and breathe this stuff every day.

You keep pointing and adhereing to the version build numbers...I can release & rebuild the same 'build image number' that pulls in different code, its all built into our packaging & image creator software at work...

For example, I can build & repackage my image internally 100 times, and still have the same version number, completely different feature set even, if I so choose too...and we frequently do just that.

MS could have built
8.0.10521.155, 10 times before they released it...so even IF the version number stays the same, the code underneath could change....OR...they may have a process that downloads an immediate fixpack during the official GA upgrade process. (Unlikely as it would introduce additional risk.)

When we send our our final GA build, we always repackage it at an easy version number...the version number is irrelevant to a degree...its nothing more than a label.

You can say you do all you want, but based on your 'evidence'...you don't. I agree that to an outsider what you're saying is logical, but if you're inside the guts of how software is truly bundled & packaged, its not really how it works. Its a lot of organized chaos & constantly changing internal repackaging for weekly builds. Some of those weekly builds we absolutely share with hardware vendors & 3rd party partners.

The only thing that's true is that our 'final' release is never final. We always have a critical patch that drags, or a higher up that holds the release, so we'll respin the fixpacks into a new final image, and send it...or we'll repackage to an easier number for ease of reference. We do that for the ease of our partners (and ours) deployments...so we don't have to check a 2000 line list of patches...we know that if its build 9.3.0, that all the patches are included in that release.

Finally, internally, we never ever go by the release number...b/c it always changes...we always have code names, not because anything's a secret necessarily, but because the only guys who call it by a version number are the marketers. (then we're usually like...um...ok?)

MS will respin all the fixes in the a fresh image...don't know how else to explain it...that's just how it works.


 

loofmodnar

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Ok. RTM has already happened. :wink:
Even so, nothing here opposes what I've said.

I'm not trying to oppose anything, just pointing out even MS isn't saying whether this is the RTM build or a different version. The language in the FAQ implies that the preview is pre-RTM.

All the arguing about whether this is final or not is stupid. Until it's officially released we don't know.
 

hopmedic

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blah blah blah
stuff I learned more than 20 years ago

The only thing that's true is that our 'final' release is never final. We always have a critical patch that drags, or a higher up that holds the release, so we'll respin the fixpacks into a new final image, and send it...or we'll repackage to an easier number for ease of reference.
I've been saying this all along. Welcome to the world of software.

Finally, internally, we never ever go by the release number...b/c it always changes...we always have code names, not because anything's a secret necessarily, but because the only guys who call it by a version number are the marketers. (then we're usually like...um...ok?)
You've described your software shop, but not all of them, and not ours. I work for one of the largest banks in America which is part of one of the largest banks in the world.
 
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MikeSo

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All the arguing about whether this is final or not is stupid. Until it's officially released we don't know.

Few of us argue that it's final. Of course it's not FINAL. There is no "final" build of any OS, or software.

We're arguing whether this is beta, and whether it's a stable release meant for the public.

Since MS sent this out to reviewers, manufacturers and the public (yes, "developers" that sign up so easily for free are the public), haven't said a peep about it being beta or unfinished (except for Cortana), it's hard to make the case that it is a beta. But we'll find out when the 630/635/930 come out, I guess.
 

Zapella Tiago

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I think its normal, the current Firmware from Nokia its not appropriate for WP8.1 (The OS Update was HUGE), thats why carriers receive the OS before anyone. To make things right on their device.
 

MikeSo

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I think its normal, the current Firmware from Nokia its not appropriate for WP8.1 (The OS Update was HUGE), thats why carriers receive the OS before anyone. To make things right on their device.

You realize that these Developer Previews direct installs expose the "carriers must test software" idiocy as the sham it is, right?
There are certainly carrier specific pieces of software and functionality they want to add to releases, and doing it at the same time minimizes the hassles that updates are for the consumers. But the delays are because carriers want to get their own stuff into the updates, not about "making things right".
 

Xellsama

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I think this is a brilliant move. The update has been reviewed in generally positive view on tech blogs, and hardcore fans who will be strongly vocal about changes will get to vent anger before any product is actually publicly available to average consumer on the street. So when real products are out, the criticism would've died down quite a bit, which would be a good PR move by MS.
 

kevinn206

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I just want IE 11 to be fixed. This tab reloading is just unacceptable. I tweeted Joe Belifore, but having heard any response yet. I can live with the other changes. And fix the musical chair issue with tab locations. They keep changing position.
 

MikeSo

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I just want IE 11 to be fixed. This tab reloading is just unacceptable. I tweeted Joe Belifore, but having heard any response yet. I can live with the other changes. And fix the musical chair issue with tab locations. They keep changing position.

The new features in IE11 are great, but the basic rendering definitely has bugs that need to be fixed.
 

Zapella Tiago

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You realize that these Developer Previews direct installs expose the "carriers must test software" idiocy as the sham it is, right?
There are certainly carrier specific pieces of software and functionality they want to add to releases, and doing it at the same time minimizes the hassles that updates are for the consumers. But the delays are because carriers want to get their own stuff into the updates, not about "making things right".

No way, certainly carriers optimize firmware.
 

dorelse

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stuff I learned more than 20 years ago


I've been saying this all along. Welcome to the world of software.


You've described your software shop, but not all of them, and not ours. I work for one of the largest banks in America which is part of one of the largest banks in the world.

Hardware & OS development, and how they're tied together is a world apart from writing banking software.

**Edited & reposted to follow WPCentral guidelines.
 

a5cent

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No way, certainly carriers optimize firmware.

They most definitely do nothing of the sort.

You realize that these Developer Previews direct installs expose the "carriers must test software" idiocy as the sham it is, right?

It is a sham if you think testing is purely technical in nature. It is not. The entire process also ensures that carriers have control over what software is released on their networks, which is the far more important point. Almost none of their testing is focused on catching the type of errors end users would care about.

Keep in mind that whatever is on the manufacturer's devices, the carrier branded version will still be stamped on them, and the true final release will be what MS sends to the carriers.

There is a lot of misinformation floating around the web on this issue. MS doesn't actually send carriers anything.

MS provides the OS to OEMs. OEMs install the OS + OS configuration files + firmware onto their devices. The OS configuration files can be used to inject some branding (startup screens, list of apps to install during initial setup, etc), but this is handled entirely by the OEM on the carrier's behalf. The carriers themselves have no direct access to the OS and they don't touch anything in ROM. OEMs then provide test devices with the updated software package to carriers. If everything works as expected and the carrier finds the software changes acceptable, they will sign off on the update. This gives OEMs the right to "flip a switch", which starts the update distribution process for that one specific software version, for one specific device, on one specific network.

Anyway, hopmedic is absolutely correct that MS fully intends (intended?) for the developer preview to be the final version. The thing is, intent doesn't always translate into reality. According to a recent article on WPC, MS is considering at least one change. However, WPC also states that we should expect only small and "under the hood" changes. At work I hear the same thing, namely that if WP8.1 requires any large/feature-related changes, MS would prefer to fast-track GDR1 for WP8.1, rather than modify the current version, which would restart the entire testing and validation process and delay the official release.

What the developer's preview is not is a beta program. That phase ended months ago.

Note that the above applies only to the OS itself... not backend services (Bing, Cortana, etc) or apps that are delivered separately (Xbox Music etc).
 

dorelse

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I don't disagree with an particular point, though the 'ideal' release rarely, if ever occurs, so my comments are based in the reality of delivering new OS & Hdw upgrades. Typically, those minor tweaks are reimaged and sent to OEM's to do their final validation & testing, usually one last round of validation. Yes, we rarely add anything, we're more likely to pull back something...its only ever critical bug fixes and UI tweaks, and possibly some performance tweaks.

If some feature can't make it, we'll usually provide an enablement patch down the road that fixes and enables any features that we promised, but missed the final cut. Though usually those are before a 'GDR1' type patch...sometimes, we'll just call it a 'feature pack' or 'fixpack'.

Mostly b/c we want to realize the income during that quarter, and we can't unless those pre-orders have shipped from the factory...sometimes the bean counters impact the release more than us OS guys can...

Again, when you live and breathe a tightly coupled OS & Server development cycle...this stuff is pretty normal.
 
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a5cent

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...though the 'ideal' release rarely, if ever occurs, so my comments are based in the reality of delivering new OS & Hdw upgrades.

I'm not sure if you're responding to me or someone else, but either way, yes, there is no ideal/perfect release. That is pretty obvious to anyone that works in the software industry. All you can do is decide between shipping the current release now, or delaying in favour of a future release that will also have its own faults and also not be perfect.
 

chezm

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Man, im currently not an WP user but can defend the "its a BETA release" statement. Its a beta that was supposed to be released only to developers yet everyone was handle to get their hands on it. People should really help support bug fixes and find ways to report their findings instead of complaining about 8.1.
 

chezm

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Anyone ready for another round?

lol, i have no intent on arguing with anyone...thats my opinion from an outsider who moved to iOS temporarily waiting for WP to fix issues i had with it. my 2 cents, from someone who hasn't used 8.1 and is eagerly waiting for new devices to be released.
 

angusdegraosta

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I am so glad I signed up and downloaded the preview. This is the best keyboard on a phone I've ever used! The notification center is great. Tile backgrounds are an excellent option. Cortana is fun and useful... yes, most of WYSIWYG. What's going to change are bug fixes and added Nokia features... and (I sure hope) some stellar updates to sharing and music apps.

As official updates and new devices come out, WP will continue to grow. Who knows? Best Buy may even get it's head out of Samsung's ***. The carriers might follow. Even tech blogs have good things to say about 8.1 so far.

Mistake? Not on your life. This update is the most exciting thing I've yet to see on Windows Phone.
 

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