08-19-2014 12:46 AM
55 123
tools
  1. k0de's Avatar
    Objective C is nothing but "small talk" 😊 sorry Apple. Java is cool but Java can't live outside a JVM sorry Android oops Google.

    C++ is a cool alternative to C. But C# is better than C and C++ combine together. C++ ++1 over C. Haha
    C# ++2 over C and C++ combined 😊.

    Understand this principal and you shall understand that MSFT and Windows Phone will soon rule.

    C#, XAML, HTM5, JavaScript are the computing languages of the future.

    Clang, Jvac, Cli. Heavy weight championship of Compilers.

    And the winner is?

    Cli, oops my bad.

    Remarkable.

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by k0de; 06-09-2014 at 08:01 PM.
    06-09-2014 05:33 PM
  2. Reflexx's Avatar
    Apple is using Swift now. It looks a lot more friendly than Objective C. https://developer.apple.com/swift/
    k0de likes this.
    06-09-2014 05:50 PM
  3. k0de's Avatar
    Apple is using Swift now. It looks a lot more friendly than Objective C. https://developer.apple.com/swift/
    Lol, swift. Please.

    Apache code is cool. But nope swift is a work in progress. Just like Nutch, hadoop, and Tomcat. Good luck. It will soon die out.
    Last edited by k0de; 06-09-2014 at 06:06 PM.
    06-09-2014 05:51 PM
  4. k0de's Avatar
    Windows Phone dev's let Droids and iOS devs know the power of Windows Phone.

    Don't be shy. Blow off on the comments and make some noise..,

    Lets hear it.....

    Take my word. Apple is "Small talk" and Droids live and die in a JVM.

    Only WP will live on for real.

    Lets hear it...
    Last edited by k0de; 06-09-2014 at 06:37 PM.
    06-09-2014 06:27 PM
  5. Reflexx's Avatar
    MS has always had the better dev environment. It hasn't been enough yet.

    Hopefully the unification of the store allowing apps to be developed for Windows and Windows Phone with largely the same code will encourage devs to give it a shot.
    06-09-2014 07:09 PM
  6. k0de's Avatar
    MS has always had the better dev environment. It hasn't been enough yet.

    Hopefully the unification of the store allowing apps to be developed for Windows and Windows Phone with largely the same code will encourage devs to give it a shot.
    I hope you are correct. It is a shame. I am tired of other dev's on other platforms out designing, out coding, out creating, out imagining MSFT devs. It is not acceptable.

    What is the excuse?

    At least you understand me.

    Thanks
    06-09-2014 07:32 PM
  7. AG VK's Avatar
    MS has always had the better dev environment. It hasn't been enough yet.

    Hopefully the unification of the store allowing apps to be developed for Windows and Windows Phone with largely the same code will encourage devs to give it a shot.
    Huh? WP has the most annoying and restrictive dev environment ever. Just to install the SDK you need an x64 PC with Windows 8. That alone is probably stopping a good bunch of developers from developing for WP8. Anecdotally, there's a game I like on Android called Atomic Bomber - pretty simple game, easy to port I should think. I contacted the dev and asked if a WP port for my L920 was possible. He said he'll look into it and got back to me a few days later with this exact reason - he wasn't going to upgrade from 7 to 8 just to develop for WP.
    06-09-2014 11:02 PM
  8. Reflexx's Avatar
    Huh? WP has the most annoying and restrictive dev environment ever. Just to install the SDK you need an x64 PC with Windows 8. That alone is probably stopping a good bunch of developers from developing for WP8. Anecdotally, there's a game I like on Android called Atomic Bomber - pretty simple game, easy to port I should think. I contacted the dev and asked if a WP port for my L920 was possible. He said he'll look into it and got back to me a few days later with this exact reason - he wasn't going to upgrade from 7 to 8 just to develop for WP.
    That's not much of a hoop to jump. It's just that the dev doesn't want to.
    06-10-2014 01:02 AM
  9. AG VK's Avatar
    That's not much of a hoop to jump. It's just that the dev doesn't want to.
    But it's a hoop and enough of one to stop at least some devs from working with WP apps. I understand that you're defending Microsoft, but it is quite a pain to upgrade OS' even when there's a good enough reason. With WP in the situation it is, every possible dev with even a smidgen of interest in WP should have a painless way to get into the ecosystem and right now the pain of switching from W7 to W8 is not worth it to the devs IMO.
    06-10-2014 02:36 AM
  10. Lakshman Guntu's Avatar
    Huh? WP has the most annoying and restrictive dev environment ever. Just to install the SDK you need an x64 PC with Windows 8. That alone is probably stopping a good bunch of developers from developing for WP8.
    I am an ERP (Peoplesoft) developer and thought of developing apps for Windows phone. Above is the exact reason why I couldnt develop. I thought I can get serious about APP development once I START with a single app. But this single app is not working out.
    06-10-2014 03:16 AM
  11. ohgood's Avatar
    MS has always had the better dev environment. It hasn't been enough yet.

    Hopefully the unification of the store allowing apps to be developed for Windows and Windows Phone with largely the same code will encourage devs to give it a shot.
    I used to think there would be a tipping point when developers would flood to windows8 (w8) because of unified development for desktop and windows phone (wp) applications too.

    Now, I see it as a concept or theory that never came to fruition.

    Not because of a lack of user base, developer interest, or dominance from android and apple.

    The only reason I see that wasn't accounted for is that people just don't need or want applications for both desktop and mobile that do the same things. There are a few exceptions like Spotify and Facebook, but very few, and in my opinion, they are very rare.

    How will Microsoft rethink their needs for unified applications ? I don't know.
    Made in flanders likes this.
    06-10-2014 07:07 AM
  12. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    I used to think there would be a tipping point when developers would flood to windows8 (w8) because of unified development for desktop and windows phone (wp) applications too.

    Now, I see it as a concept or theory that never came to fruition.

    Not because of a lack of user base, developer interest, or dominance from android and apple.

    The only reason I see that wasn't accounted for is that people just don't need or want applications for both desktop and mobile that do the same things. There are a few exceptions like Spotify and Facebook, but very few, and in my opinion, they are very rare.

    How will Microsoft rethink their needs for unified applications ? I don't know.
    When they talk about universal apps, they mean "Metro" apps for Win 8, not "desktop mode" apps.

    It makes total sense to be able to easily develop such apps for Win 8, Win RT, and Windows Phone.

    Posted from my BlackBerry Z30 via Tapatalk
    06-10-2014 07:43 AM
  13. Robert03's Avatar
    I used to think there would be a tipping point when developers would flood to windows8 (w8) because of unified development for desktop and windows phone (wp) applications too.

    Now, I see it as a concept or theory that never came to fruition.

    Not because of a lack of user base, developer interest, or dominance from android and apple.

    The only reason I see that wasn't accounted for is that people just don't need or want applications for both desktop and mobile that do the same things. There are a few exceptions like Spotify and Facebook, but very few, and in my opinion, they are very rare.

    How will Microsoft rethink their needs for unified applications ? I don't know.
    I think the biggest problem for Microsoft is a lack "usability awareness" with it's home users in combination with a marketing strategy that is more focused on business instead of these home users. Combining platforms could be working out in a great way but you need to show people the way.

    Take it for a spin:

    I Microsoft creates a desktop, tablet, mobile app for cooking. It then shows how the app on the pc gives you all the information you need to prepare this food. Switching over to your Windows Phone it gives you the same info but with a shopping list you can use in store to check if you have everything and when you come home you click your Surface Tablet in a special placeholder in the kitchen while "cortana" can be used to scroll up or down the page, provides information and maybe set the timer during the cooking.

    Promote it during one of the famous TV cooking competitions and go with it.
    06-10-2014 07:43 AM
  14. ohgood's Avatar
    When they talk about universal apps, they mean "Metro" apps for Win 8, not "desktop mode" apps.

    It makes total sense to be able to easily develop such apps for Win 8, Win RT, and Windows Phone.

    Posted from my BlackBerry Z30 via Tapatalk
    I understand that.


    The point was:
    The guy/gal developing a video editing application isn't going to gain mobile users, or rt users.

    Just like the mobile Dev working on GPS nav won't gain desktop users.

    The screen size dictates what people use on the devices, PC vs phone vs tablet have different uses for people, with different types of applications on each.

    What is the incentive for developers to cross develop their application if this is true?
    06-10-2014 08:08 AM
  15. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    I understand that.


    The point was:
    The guy/gal developing a video editing application isn't going to gain mobile users, or rt users.

    Just like the mobile Dev working on GPS nav won't gain desktop users.

    The screen size dictates what people use on the devices, PC vs phone vs tablet have different uses for people, with different types of applications on each.

    What is the incentive for developers to cross develop their application if this is true?
    The limitations you describe may be the case for some apps, but not all.

    An app like Tapatalk, for example, would work well cross-platform. Other apps like RSS readers, social media, calendar, etc. all make sense to have across all devices.

    And as the previous poster said, you could implement different features for the same app depending on which platform you are using.

    The way I see it, the ability to develop universal apps is a good thing and removes one less potential barrier to developers supporting the MS ecosystem. It also does nothing to hinder or discourage developers from developing for a single platform (Windows Phone only, for example).

    Posted from my BlackBerry Z30 via Tapatalk
    06-10-2014 08:28 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Objective C is nothing but "small talk" �� sorry Apple. Java is cool but Java can't live outside a JVM sorry Android oops Google.

    C++ is a cool alternative to C. But C# is better than C and C++ combine together. C++ ++1 over C. Haha
    C# ++2 over C and C++ combined ��.

    Understand this principal and you shall understand that MSFT and Windows Phone will soon rule.

    C#, XAML, HTM5, JavaScript are the computing languages of the future.

    Clang, Jvac, Cli. Heavy weight championship of Compilers.

    And the winner is?

    Cli, oops my bad.

    Remarkable.

    Your thoughts?
    In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I'm going to flat out disagree with most of those claims

    Objective -C is nothing like Smalltalk. Just the fact that Smalltalk is dynamically typed puts it in a completely different category! Objective C is C with a messaging system on top that was borrowed from Smalltalk, but the language itself is firmly rooted in C.

    Claiming that C# is better than C and C++ together also puts you on shaky ground. It depends what you want to do. Most of the gaming industry is firmly rooted in C++, and that has been true for so long that just claiming "tradition" or "don't want to change" doesn't cut it. In some industries, C++ provides advantages that none of the easier high-level languages you mention can compete with.

    You trashed Java for being unable to live outside the JVM, but your favourite alternative has the exact same issue. C# can't live outside the CLR either. Same concept, same problems, same undeterminisitc behaviour at runtime. You can't trash one without trashing the other. That iOS apps use one of the languages you dislike (Objective C) is the main reason why iOS apps have very short startup times. Those apps have no runtime environment to initialize during startup, which significantly contributes to startup overhead on WP. Lengthy startup times can be traced directly back to the usage of high-level .NET languages like C#.

    Of the four languages you claimed to be the computing languages of the future, only two are actually computing languages. HTML5 and XAML are declarative languages that are targeted at very specific problems. They aren't general purpose programming languages in the traditional sense.

    In a nutshell, as long as we have operating systems, there will continue to be a need for lower-level languages (like C++). Some would call those high-level languages you listed toys

    Either way, I don't think programming languages matter much. What does matter is market share. All else is close to irrelevant. Just the fact that Apple could get most of the world's developers stumbling over themselves to create apps in Objective C proves that.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-10-2014 at 04:41 PM. Reason: spelling
    06-10-2014 08:40 AM
  17. Robert03's Avatar
    Just like the mobile Dev working on GPS nav won't gain desktop users.
    Why should or could they not?

    A desktop app could load the different routes and place them in a map on you system. In the Netherlands companies pay for the amount of km / miles a different % tax based on the routes etc.

    At the other hand you could think of finding a shop by browsing on your desktop and load the address in the app that you use in your car for navigation.
    James8561 likes this.
    06-10-2014 08:43 AM
  18. ohgood's Avatar
    The limitations you describe may be the case for some apps, but not all.

    An app like Tapatalk, for example, would work well cross-platform. Other apps like RSS readers, social media, calendar, etc. all make sense to have across all devices.

    And as the previous poster said, you could implement different features for the same app depending on which platform you are using.

    The way I see it, the ability to develop universal apps is a good thing and removes one less potential barrier to developers supporting the MS ecosystem. It also does nothing to hinder or discourage developers from developing for a single platform (Windows Phone only, for example).

    Posted from my BlackBerry Z30 via Tapatalk
    Agreed about Tapatalk, Facebook, internet specific things.

    When you look at your list of installed desktop applications, and compare it to your phones, there aren't many that would be used on both.
    06-10-2014 09:33 AM
  19. ohgood's Avatar
    Why should or could they not?

    A desktop app could load the different routes and place them in a map on you system. In the Netherlands companies pay for the amount of km / miles a different % tax based on the routes etc.

    At the other hand you could think of finding a shop by browsing on your desktop and load the address in the app that you use in your car for navigation.
    Yes, syncing favorites by GPS cords or contact address is useful.

    I've been using Google earth, gpsies, google maps, osm, basecamp, and a few others to plot routes, but they would be horrible to try and use on a mobile device.

    It's almost too easy to dropbox the route, or just add the address to my contacts and let the phone's navigation handle the rest.
    06-10-2014 09:39 AM
  20. Reflexx's Avatar
    But it's a hoop and enough of one to stop at least some devs from working with WP apps. I understand that you're defending Microsoft, but it is quite a pain to upgrade OS' even when there's a good enough reason. With WP in the situation it is, every possible dev with even a smidgen of interest in WP should have a painless way to get into the ecosystem and right now the pain of switching from W7 to W8 is not worth it to the devs IMO.
    You said that it was one of the most annoying or restrictive dev environments ever. lol

    If you want to make iPhone apps, what do you think you need?
    ven07 and James8561 like this.
    06-10-2014 11:05 AM
  21. Reflexx's Avatar
    I am an ERP (Peoplesoft) developer and thought of developing apps for Windows phone. Above is the exact reason why I couldnt develop. I thought I can get serious about APP development once I START with a single app. But this single app is not working out.
    But the problem isn't that. It's that there isn't enough reason/motivation for you to want to get the necessary equipment to develop for Windows.
    06-10-2014 11:07 AM
  22. Reflexx's Avatar
    I used to think there would be a tipping point when developers would flood to windows8 (w8) because of unified development for desktop and windows phone (wp) applications too.

    Now, I see it as a concept or theory that never came to fruition.

    Not because of a lack of user base, developer interest, or dominance from android and apple.

    The only reason I see that wasn't accounted for is that people just don't need or want applications for both desktop and mobile that do the same things. There are a few exceptions like Spotify and Facebook, but very few, and in my opinion, they are very rare.

    How will Microsoft rethink their needs for unified applications ? I don't know.
    I'm not sure if a "flood" will happen. Well, at least not quickly. If there's a flood, it's not going to be a "flash flood" where it hits you out of the blue and nobody saw it coming. I think we'll see a gradual growth as two things happen.

    1. Increased prevalence of Windows tablets
    2. Gradual consumer comfort with the Modern user environment

    There isn't any urgency right now. It's kind of something that consumers are able to feel out because they can always fall back to their desktop applications. They're kind of in an experimental stage when it comes to Modern app usage. As a result, many devs are lukewarm. They are dipping their toes in, but aren't willing to do things that require more than just a passive effort.
    06-10-2014 11:12 AM
  23. colinkiama's Avatar
    That's not much of a hoop to jump. It's just that the dev doesn't want to.
    Blame Microsoft for making Windows 8's reputation look bad.
    06-10-2014 04:18 PM
  24. k0de's Avatar
    In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I'm going to flat out disagree with most of those claims

    Objective -C is nothing like Smalltalk. Just the fact that Smalltalk is dynamically typed puts it in a completely different category! Objective C is C with a messaging system on top that was borrowed from Smalltalk, but the language itself is firmly rooted in C.

    Claiming that C# is better than C and C++ together also puts you on shaky ground. It depends what you want to do. Most of the gaming industry is firmly rooted in C++, and that has been true for so long that just claiming "tradition" or "don't want to change" doesn't cut it. In some industries, C++ provides advantages that none of the easier high-level languages you mention can compete with.

    You trashed Java for being unable to live outside the JVM, but your favourite alternative has the exact same issue. C# can't live outside the CLR either. Same concept, same problems, same undeterminisitc behaviour at runtime. You can't trash one without trashing the other. That iOS apps use one of the languages you dislike (Objective C) is the main reason why iOS apps have very short startup times. Those apps have no runtime environment to initialize during startup, which significantly contributes to startup overhead on WP. Lengthy startup times can be traced directly back to the usage of high-level .NET languages like C#.

    Of the four languages you claimed to be the computing languages of the future, only two are actually computing languages. HTML5 and XAML are declarative languages that are targeted at very specific problems. They aren't general programming languages in the traditional sense.

    In a nutshell, as long as we have operating systems, there will continue to be a need for lower-level languages (like C++). Some would call those high-level languages you listed toys

    Either way, I don't think programming languages matter much. What does matter is market share. All else is close to irrelevant. Just the fact that Apple could get most of the world's developers stumbling over themselves to create apps in Objective C proves that.
    Man.,, you are so on point. Your quote I tip my hat to. Very true, Bottom line though is not market share.

    Lets see going foward how WP devs out code the competition. Is already starting to show.
    06-10-2014 04:25 PM
  25. k0de's Avatar
    Blame Microsoft for making Windows 8's reputation look bad.
    Nope. Dev's failing to innovate for WP. MSFT is your best friend. Resources and tools are there. Best of all free and Open Source.

    And if you want to hire some help. That's available too. This..... though depends on your resources.

    Nothing but copy cat dev's on WP. Call it third party if you will. 😊 To me is nothing but copy cats. No good. 😊

    WP needs exclusive apps!

    Where are the WP exclusive? Dev's lets see them apps.

    Tools + Resources + imagination + no alibis = Great Apps,

    Use your imagination. Shape the world of computing with your thoughts. It requires brain power but not impossible.

    Simply put.,,,, Think and code your thoughts. Oops is that algorithms?

    Simply said just put your thoughts into code.😊

    You feel me?

    Lets code!

    I love ❤ MSFT.
    Last edited by k0de; 06-10-2014 at 05:18 PM.
    06-10-2014 04:30 PM
55 123

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