08-21-2014 02:21 PM
29 12
  1. Ozioma Whittaker's Avatar
    Oh and about two plates, 1 for 240 and 1 for 280 radiator mounting. I don't think that's necessary. I think it would just increase cost. Wouldn't it be ok to just have both sets of holes in a vented panel. That way either option can be mounted. I've seen that in multiple cases and haven't seen a problem with it.

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App
    a5cent likes this.
    07-08-2014 06:22 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    Hey Ozioma Whittaker!

    Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I've been out and about evaluating manufacturing facilities, and there was no way I was going to reply to your long post using just my smartphone!

    So, thanks again for all your feedback! Much appreciated! Let's get started...

    I took the liberty of copying your pictures and using paint to illustrate my thoughts a bit better. I hope that is ok.
    Of course. No problem. Use them for whatever you want.

    [Image #1]
    In this first picture is shown another possible [PSU] mounting location. But considering airflow from the front of the case and the loss of additional mounting locations I think your location of the psu is the best at the moment. Other options for this space to the side of the motherboard will be shown in later pictures.
    Yup, I think you just noticed how central ATX12V PSU placement is to this design. I think it's fair to say that PSU placement is the foundation/pillar of this case's design, as airflow and the placement of all other components is designed around it. It would definitely make my life easier if I could rely on the PSU being exactly in that one spot.

    [Image #1]
    This picture also shows mounting locations at the bottom front of the case for ssd's and hdd's. This mounting at the bottom front allows the gpu to breathe in air from the bottom.
    From what I understand, you are suggesting that the space in front of the GPU should have mounting points for additional HDD/SSD drives. I think that is a good idea. I will try to provide that, but be aware of the following:

    • This will only work if the GPU isn't in the way, meaning it must be less than 13" long.
    • These drives would be mounted on their side, so air could still be sucked in through the bottom panel (it's not visible in the images, but there are ventilation holes in that area).

    Did I understand you correctly? What do you think?

    [Image #2]
    This next image shows mounting locations for 240/280 mm radiator or just fans. Leave the design of the front of the case how it is. It looks nice how it is. the air intake for this front mounted radiator is from the vents on the side and the bottom of the case.

    {quoted from image: possibly allow clearance for push and pull fan configuration}
    I always intended to provide a frontal mounting point for a fan, but I never thought of providing two. I like that idea! Looking at the current measurements, I think it should be possible to mount 120mm, 140mm, 180mm, and even 2x120mm fan/radiator assemblies, even in push-pull configurations (2x120 mm fan/radiator will require that the GPU isn't too long).

    However, I don't see a 2x140mm fan/radiator assembly fitting in there. The only way that would work is if you didn't mount anything on top, not even fans, but that is not a configuration I should support, because the airflow design really needs fans on top to work properly.

    I think push-pull fan configurations were more important before pressure optimize fans were readily available. Push-pull configurations don't increase CFM, and I'm not aware of an example where a push-pull configuration measurably improved cooling performance in a setup where pressure optimized fans were already used. That is why I'm not treating push-pull configurations as a primary requirement. The result is that I'm not intending to provide enough clearance for a push-pull configuration on top, but it should be no problem for front mounted fan/radiator assemblies.

    What do you think?

    [Image #3]
    I included a picture and explanation of my own pc layout to show how my radiator takes in air and to show why I don't like my current case. Everything fits in there barely. Key word barely.
    Wow, you crammed quite a lot in there! ;-) I think airflow would be very problematic, but I agree, you definitely got as much out of that case as you possibly could!

    [Image #4]
    This next picture shows location of a push pull 120/140 mm radiator. Ideally clearance for a full push pull 240/280 mm radiator in front and top would be nice. But due to space limitations I'm not sure if that would be possible. But the option to do so would be nice. Allowing for a 120/140 push pull radiator in the middle front would still allow hdd and ssd placement above or below the cooler.
    Yeah, I think I already addressed this in the previous section about fan/radiator placement. Please correct me if I'm wrong or missed something.

    [Image #5]
    This next picture shows more possible mounting locations for odd, ssd and hdd. The odd would be slim line along bottom of case. My preference is side input from the right but any input is possible

    {quoted from image: location for slim line ODD. Flat along bottom of case so as to not obstruct airflow. If you could find some way to mount HDDs and SSDs above it that could work. Make it side loading, either left or right. Though personal preference is right loading}
    My current thinking is that the ODD should be mounted flat against the front of the case, at about half hight, side loading optionally left or right. I initially intended to do exactly what you're suggesting, but decided against it for these reasons:

    • there actually are ventilation holes on the bottom panel below that spot. Covering that area up would get in the way of some GPU air coolers, like this one
    • that space is only available if you use a GPU that is one slot thinner than the number of PCIe slots the case provides. I'd prefer it if there was no danger of realizing too late, that a three slots wide GPU and a slim ODD won't both fit at the same time.

    What do you think?

    [Image #5]
    {quoted from image: another possible location for SSDs or HDDs flat against the side of the case}
    I'm not sure if you are suggesting HDDs/SSDs be mounted to the side panel, or if you are only referring to mounting orientation. As far as mounting orientation is concerned, that is exactly how I intend HDDs/SSDs to be mounted. However, I do not intend for anything to be mounted to the side panels. I've got a case like that and it makes opening the case a real pain, as you've already got to unplug cables and such.

    What do you think?

    Okay, I've still got a bit to go, but I'll stop here for now. I'll get back to the rest in a day or two.

    I'm already looking forward to hearing your thoughts though!
    07-16-2014 05:56 PM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    Okay, back for the second round...

    [Image #6]
    I think the side panel window should be optional.
    Agree. It likely won't make a difference in terms of price (or at least not one worth mentioning), but that will be an option.

    [Image #6]
    This picture shows my thoughts about the clearance from side of case to motherboard. If you could give some assurance of air still being able to flow over the motherboard that would be good because with all the tubes and cable I'm imagining, airflow seems to be hindered.
    This is something I'm aware of, but I have yet to run a fluid dynamics simulation that includes tubing, so I don't have any hard numbers to go on. This is my current thinking:

    We'll have at least three tubes running through that 85mm wide cavity. I think the tube connecting the CPU block to the GPU block can almost be ignored, as it will be rather short and not run the length of the cavity. That leaves us with at least two tubes. This is one possible configuration I currently envision (having the radiator ports, pump and reservoir at the back of the case is also possible.):


    Here, one tube is routed along the flange across the top of the motherboard tray. The other is routed strait from the GPU port to the pump. I don't think such a setup would notably impact airflow within that 85mm cavity. But again, that is just my gut feeling. There is nothing scientific about it. Are you less optimistic?

    [Image #7]
    This image addresses the location of the frond I/O. From one of your first posts I believe this is where you said you wanted to put the front I/O. I think it would be better used as an air intake for the front radiator. Plus putting those inputs on the very front of the case would disrupt the minimalist clean look of the front. I have indicated wher I think the front I/O should go.

    {quoted from image: this is my personal preference for I/O location. It doesn't have to be on this side but it should be on whatever side the ODD loads.}
    I think I owe you a better rendering of how front I/O is intended to look. It's not really apparent from the current set of pictures. If you look closely at the front picture in your post, you'll see that the marked area is just a cut-out. The actual I/O panel will be set back about 2/3 of an inch. I'll provide a better rendering soon to visualize it.

    The reason I'd prefer I/O to be at the front is due to accessibility. Anything on the sides is always problematic. What if one person using the case is a leftee while the other a rightee? What if the LAN party you're visiting doesn't allow the same placement as you've got on your home desk? What about the student who regularly moves back and forth between their dorm room and their parent's house, where the case can't be setup in the same way. I'd like a case where that isn't a pain.

    I was actually opposed to the ODD being side loaded too, but I eventually decided it might be the best solution, and not too much of a compromise since ODD's are on their way out anyway. Still, I haven't quite yet abandoned the idea of it being top loaded either. I doubt that is how it will turn out, but I'm not ready to rule it out entirely yet either.

    The I/O panel is really important however, and used often. I don't want it to ever be hard to reach or even inaccessible. That's why I'm hesitant to place it on the sides.

    What are your thoughts?

    [Image #7]
    I do not think three pci slots are needed. But if there is a graphics card that woud use them then I am not against them.
    This is an example of a GPU that is three PCIe slots wide.

    Such beasts do exist. On the other hand, this case is targeted at people who intend to water cool, and today water cooling the GPU is much more interesting than water cooling the CPU. However, a water cooled GPU is at most one PCIe slot wide. In that configuration it's most likely the three PCIe slots are just a waste of space. That is the dilemma I have. The more I think about it, and the more I consider the intended audience, the more I'm inclined to think that a smaller case with just two PCIe slots would be preferable to a third PCIe slot.

    Anyway, I've noted your vote. I'm also leaning in that direction, and I hope more people chime in on that aspect as well.

    [Image #7]
    While on the graphics card. How will it be secured. In a regular configuration the graphics card is secured by the pci slot screw and the pci lane so. But with this pci extencsion cable it seems like the graphics card is secured only by the pci slot which doesn't seem adequate.
    Take a look at image #10 in my second post. The white PCIe socket you see there represents one end of the PCIe extension cable. That is mounted/soldered onto a PCB, which is itself securely fastened to the case. You can't see it here, but it will be even more rigid than the socket on your motherboard. As such, mounting of the GPU will be pretty much the same as if it were plugged into the motherboard. PCIe slot, socket and screw will hold it in place exactly as if it were in the motherboard.

    [Image #7]
    Also, will the pci extension cable introduce any latency to your knowledge?
    No. Again, take a look at image #10 in my second post. Below it I've included a link to a blog post where someone tested some of the best and worst PCIe extension cables. Latency was never a problem. With some of the cheaper extension cables stability can be an issue though. I've put a lot of effort into getting a high quality custom built cable. Considering it will be almost identical to the high quality cable used in that test, but only 10cm long instead of 25cm or even 50cm, there will be no problems whatsoever. Guaranteed (I have a background in electronics engineering, so I understand the complexities related to high frequency signalling).

    [Image #7]
    Lastly dust. This case has alot of air intake, how will the dust be managed. I assume some dust covers will be used. But does that mean an extra large dust cover for the right side panel next to the psu?
    Yes, a magnetic dust filter will cover almost the entire inside of the right panel.

    [Image #7]
    One point I want to make about all these options I have mentioned is customizability. I do not expect nor do I think it is possible to mount all the things I have mentioned at the same time. But providing the ability to mount all of them is a service to your potential customers. Someone may want only 1 radiator and tons of hdd/ssds. The ability to do that should be possible. Someone may want to mount two 280mm radiators both in push pull config and just one ssd. If possible, that should be an option, for someone wanting to mount two large radiators and tons of storage and an odd, that may not be possible and those people should probably consider a larger case or suffer serious air flow problems. But all of these options are possible in this case in my opinion. Granted I haven't gotten out my measuring stick and made precise measurements.
    I completely understood that point, even without you making it. I also completely agree.

    [Image #7]
    This was a lot to write and may be easier to explain/discuss over Skype or something.
    I agree. If we continue this discussion in this intensity I'd also prefer Skype ;-) PM me and we can set that up!
    07-17-2014 10:45 AM
  4. QwarkDreams's Avatar
    How is it going with the case?
    08-21-2014 02:21 PM
29 12

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