Help me design the perfect mini-ITX case?

[gedzum]

I think I have seen some cases where you can mount a few 3.5" drives at the back of the motherboard tray. But from what I see in your design, the m/b tray doesn't seem to extend past the cable management grommets. Other than that, I guess you could consider mounting points at the bottom of the case, but then it would appear to be too close to the pci slots. That's a tough one and I guess it is something that may have to be compromised the smaller the design gets.

On the other hand, you bring up good points about 2.5" drives becoming more prevalent, particularly with enthusiast builds where aesthetics and performance (in the case of SSDs) are key factors. If larger amounts of storage space are required, those users would either be looking at a different form factor to begin with, or as you have pointed out, in some form of server based storage.

 

[Muessig]

Glad that you like the case! Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I've been very busy at home, and while moderating is quick and simple, this requires more time. ;-)

The reason it has a side window is because it's expected that many people with this case would install a water cooling loop, which is often an aesthetically pleasing sight:

Such a setup deserves to be shown IMHO. Either way though, I see no reason why a case couldn't be provided without a side window. Just leave out a few steps and presto! :smile:

What I'm most unsure of are the mounting points for 3.5" drives. The best place to put them would be below the water cooled GPU, where there is more than enough space because a water cooled GPU is at most one PCIe slot thick. Unfortunately, those people with a water cooled GPU are also those who are least likely to use any 3.5" drives at all, as most will have fully transitioned to 2.5" SSDs. That leaves only the front of the case where they somewhat conflict with air flow and cooling considerations, which I won't accept. So, still thinking on that one.

Ideas are very welcome of course.

My personal opinion is that ODDs (optical disk drives) are legacy equipment, like floppy disks. Almost all software is downloaded over the internet these days, including operating systems, MS Office and even games. If you don't transfer you files through the cloud, there are always USB drives, which are faster, don't scratch, and have higher capacities than even DVDs. I personally have no use for an ODD drive, but I imagine a lot of people see that differently, so I do plan to provide a mounting point, although it will be of the slim, slot loading variety. I'm still thinking about placement and in which direction media should be ejected (left, right, top).

What do you think?

I can understand wanting to feature a side window especially if you've put a water cooling system in that you really want to show off, but not everyone would do that - I don't think I would at the moment so and I personally prefer a case where the side is without a window. If you're interested, the case I have a the moment is the Coolermaster CM Storm Sniper Black Edition.

I think declaring 3.5" drives as legacy equipment is shortsighted, as they're still extremely popular for larger storage volumes like 1-4TB drives. SSD's are prohibitively expensive at this cost, and I'd prefer to have my system all-in-one without having to have any 3.5" drives mounted externally etc.

Have you got enough room along the floor of the case, underneath the PSU? unless this is occupied by something else.

As far as optical drives go I think this one is borderline. I know a lot of people that still rely on optical media, and I think you'd get more traction with a case like this if you were to at least offer the functionality. I know I wouldn't personally be too much of a fan of a case that didn't at least give me the option for an optical drive because I still use mine regularly.

 

[Ozioma Whittaker]

Hey. I am really liking this thread. I really like the goals you're striving for. I have a corsair h110 and I'm looking for a mini itx case that will support it but they just aren't around or if they are they are too big or wasteful. I like what I see so far but I have several suggestions/personal preferences.
1. With regard to airflow I really think putting the psu behind the motherboard creates more issues than it solves
a) it cuts the volume available for air flowing through the case in half. And limits space for custom water cooling loop.
b) complications with gpu mounting. I like the out of the box thinking but some people may want their graphics card more visible from the side window.
== one possibility is to shift the psu forward in the case towards the front near the front air vents. The problem with that is that it hinders airflow again. So I think the traditional placing of the psu on the bottom of the case is best. Although not necessarily at the back of the case. Moving it forward along the bottom of the case would allow the Gpu(placed directly in the pci lane) to get more air flow.
2. Space for hard drives should be along the bottom of the case even directly under the Gpu(since they are thin they won't obstruct airflow as much as the psu would. But there are other options as well)
3. I may have read it already but clearance for a 240/280 mm rad in the front standing up.
4. A big thing I would like to see more in cases is customizability. Use screws as much as possible. Provide a plethora of screw holes. Possibly more than one psu mount location. Make the optical drive component removable etc.

P. S. I have lots of other thoughts and it's hard to get out all the ideas in one go. Give me some feedback about my thoughts. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to get at.

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[a5cent]

Hey. I am really liking this thread. I really like the goals you're striving for. I have a corsair h110 and I'm looking for a mini itx case that will support it but they just aren't around or if they are they are too big or wasteful. I like what I see so far but I have several suggestions/personal preferences.

Hey Ozioma, Thanks for dropping in. Glad you like it :smile:

== one possibility is to shift the psu forward in the case towards the front near the front air vents. The problem with that is that it hinders airflow again. So I think the traditional placing of the psu on the bottom of the case is best. Although not necessarily at the back of the case. Moving it forward along the bottom of the case would allow the Gpu(placed directly in the pci lane) to get more air flow.

Well, mounting the PSU behind the motherboard is really the whole trick here. :smile:

Moving the PSU below the GPU would make this case just as tall as any other vertically oriented case. Remember, the whole point is to be smaller, without sacrificing the ability to mount full sized / powerful components.

1. With regard to airflow I really think putting the psu behind the motherboard creates more issues than it solves
a) it cuts the volume available for air flowing through the case in half. And limits space for custom water cooling loop.
b) complications with gpu mounting. I like the out of the box thinking but some people may want their graphics card more visible from the side window.

I employ an extremely expensive software package that I use for fluid dynamics simulations (typically used in the aerospace industry). I use that for heat convection, conduction, radiation and air flow simulations. It gives me quite an accurate idea of cooling performance.

I haven't yet simulated the affect of dust filters, but at least without dust filters I can assure you that air flow through the top mounted radiator is not a problem. Almost all the air going through the radiator above the PSU is sucked in from outside the case, through the ventilated side panel above the PSU. You might have to take a look at the image showing the right side panel to see what I mean.

Also, cutting the total volume of air inside the case is actually a good thing! The smaller the volume inside the case, the less fan rotations are required to move said volume of air out of the case. Due to this design, air flow rate over the motherboard is almost three times higher than in conventional cases, at the same fan RPM settings.

Were you aware of that? What do you think?

As far as the space for a water cooling loop is concerned, we still have about 85 cm clearance between the top of the motherboard and the side panel. I can't think of a scenario where that wouldn't be enough, but maybe you're thinking of something I'm not?

2. Space for hard drives should be along the bottom of the case even directly under the Gpu(since they are thin they won't obstruct airflow as much as the psu would. But there are other options as well)

There will definitely be space and mounting points available for drives below the GPU. If I stick with three PCIe slots (still not sure if I should reduce to only two), then that would allow for up to two 3.5" or six 2.5" drives below the GPU. If I reduce to 2 PCIe slots that would only leave enough room for three 2.5" drives.

I'm working on those mounting points now. However, those should only be used if you are using a water cooled GPU. If you are using an air cooled GPU the drives would prevent the GPU cooler from pulling in cool air through the ventilated bottom panel.

3. I may have read it already but clearance for a 240/280 mm rad in the front standing up.

I thought about that too. I eventually chose to go with a top mounted version, for two reasons:
a) aesthetics (minimalistic and clean front panel)
b) working with instead of against hot air's natural tendency to rise

Still, I could certainly be convinced to rethink this if enough people believe a front mounted approach would provide more benefits.

4. A big thing I would like to see more in cases is customizability. Use screws as much as possible. Provide a plethora of screw holes. Possibly more than one psu mount location. Make the optical drive component removable etc.

Exactly!

The drive cage will be completely removable for example. Same is true for the ODD mounting bracket. Also, the plate on which the radiator is mounted is reversible and adjustable (front to back), and there will be two plates included, one for 240mm and one for 280mm radiators, guaranteeing the best possible mounting conditions for both.

I'll definitely do my best to include any ideas you and others can come up with! Fire away!

For a case this size and with my stated goals, I don't see any reasonable alternatives for mounting a standard ATX PSU (one thing I really like about this arrangement is the ability to mount a fanless ATX PSU, while allowing the radiator fan sitting 5 cm above it to provide all the airflow such a PSU requires, ensuring it stays cool and quite, despite lacking its own fan. I really like that idea).

What I could imagine are multiple mounting points for SFF PSUs, but I'm not sure how many people would actually care for that.

 

[Ozioma Whittaker]

Ok. I've heard what you've said and I like your thoughts. I still have a few things I'm not sure about and a few more suggestions as well. I took the liberty of copying your pictures and using paint to illustrate my thoughts a bit better. I hope that is ok. I won't use them for anything else. Some of what is said in the pictures will be reiterated here and vice versa.



I hear what you said about the current mounting of the psu and how it would increase airflow, and I am very glad you're using physics simulation software. In this first picture is shown another possible mounting location. But considering airflow from the front of the case and the loss of additional mounting locations I think your location of the psu is the best at the moment. Other options for this space to the side of the motherboard will be shown in later pictures. This picture also shows mounting locations at the bottom front of the case for ssd's and hdd's. This mounting at the bottom front allows the gpu to breathe in air from the bottom.



This next image shows mounting locations for 240/280 mm radiator or just fans. Leave the design of the front of the case how it is. It looks nice how it is. the air intake for this front mounted radiator is from the vents on the side and the bottom of the case. This same side input of air is used by my current case the Lian li PC-Q11.



I included a picture and explanation of my own pc layout to show how my radiator takes in air and to show why I don't like my current case. Everything fits in there barely. Key word barely. I don't like that the psu covers up the motherboard and it has terrible cable management but I made the best of what I had. But my point of pride is that I did manage to mount a 280 mm radiator in a mini itx case without having to modify it with a dremmel or anything. But things could be better which is why I am very interested in your project.



This next picture shows location of a push pull 120/140 mm radiator. Ideally clearance for a full push pull 240/280 mm radiator in front and top would be nice. But due to space limitations I'm not sure if that would be possible. But the option to do so would be nice. Allowing for a 120/140 push pull radiator in the middle front would still allow hdd and ssd placement above or below the cooler.



This next picture shows more possible mounting locations for odd, ssd and hdd. The odd would be slim line along bottom of case. My preference is side input from the right but any input is possible.



This picture shows my thoughts about the clearance from side of case to motherboard. If you could give some assurance of air still being able to flow over the motherboard that would be good because with all the tubes and cable I'm imagining, airflow seems to be hindered. With regard to aesthetics. Having the water cooling loop and motherboard closer to the side panel window may actually allow it to be viewed better. Though with regard to some earlier concerns in this thread. I think the side panel window should be optional. So maybe two cases one with side panel and one without. This picture also shows placement of previously mentioned components.
The placement of the front mounted radiator in this picture has been fixed to show how air can get to it from the side vents and bottom. Possible clearance for a push pull configuration would be nice but not necessary.
This picture also reiterates the placement of the ssd/hdd and odd.



This image addresses the location of the frond I/O. From one of your first posts I believe this is where you said you wanted to put the front I/O. I think it would be better used as an air intake for the front radiator. Plus putting those inputs on the very front of the case would disrupt the minimalist clean look of the front. I have indicated wher I think the front I/O should go.

I have a few more points/ questions.
First of all I like the psu behind because it really simplifies and cleans up cable management.
Secondly with regard to an earlier question. I do not think three pci slots are needed. But if there is a graphics card that woud use them then I am not against them.
While on the graphics card. How will it be secured. In a regular configuration the graphics card is secured by the pci slot screw and the pci lane so. But with this pci extencsion cable it seems like the graphics card is secured only by the pci slot which doesn't seem adequate.
Also, will the pci extension cable introduce any latency to your knowledge?
Lastly dust. This case has alot of air intake, how will the dust be managed. I assume some dust covers will be used. But does that mean an extra large dust cover for the right side panel next to the psu?

One point I want to make about all these options I have mentioned is customizability. I do not expect nor do I think it is possible to mount all the things I have mentioned at the same time. But providing the ability to mount all of them is a service to your potential customers. Someone may want only 1 radiator and tons of hdd/ssds. The ability to do that should be possible. Someone may want to mount two 280mm radiators both in push pull config and just one ssd. If possible, that should be an option, for someone wanting to mount two large radiators and tons of storage and an odd, that may not be possible and those people should probably consider a larger case or suffer serious air flow problems. But all of these options are possible in this case in my opinion. Granted I haven't gotten out my measuring stick and made precise measurements.

Please let me know what you think of these thoughts. This was a lot to write and may be easier to explain/discuss over skype or something. Keep up the good work.

 

[Ozioma Whittaker]

Oh and about two plates, 1 for 240 and 1 for 280 radiator mounting. I don't think that's necessary. I think it would just increase cost. Wouldn't it be ok to just have both sets of holes in a vented panel. That way either option can be mounted. I've seen that in multiple cases and haven't seen a problem with it.

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[a5cent]

Hey Ozioma Whittaker!

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I've been out and about evaluating manufacturing facilities, and there was no way I was going to reply to your long post using just my smartphone! :smile:

So, thanks again for all your feedback! Much appreciated! Let's get started...

I took the liberty of copying your pictures and using paint to illustrate my thoughts a bit better. I hope that is ok.

Of course. No problem. Use them for whatever you want.

[Image #1]
In this first picture is shown another possible [PSU] mounting location. But considering airflow from the front of the case and the loss of additional mounting locations I think your location of the psu is the best at the moment. Other options for this space to the side of the motherboard will be shown in later pictures.

Yup, I think you just noticed how central ATX12V PSU placement is to this design. I think it's fair to say that PSU placement is the foundation/pillar of this case's design, as airflow and the placement of all other components is designed around it. It would definitely make my life easier if I could rely on the PSU being exactly in that one spot. :smile:

[Image #1]
This picture also shows mounting locations at the bottom front of the case for ssd's and hdd's. This mounting at the bottom front allows the gpu to breathe in air from the bottom.

From what I understand, you are suggesting that the space in front of the GPU should have mounting points for additional HDD/SSD drives. I think that is a good idea. I will try to provide that, but be aware of the following:

• This will only work if the GPU isn't in the way, meaning it must be less than 13" long.
• These drives would be mounted on their side, so air could still be sucked in through the bottom panel (it's not visible in the images, but there are ventilation holes in that area).

Did I understand you correctly? What do you think?

[Image #2]
This next image shows mounting locations for 240/280 mm radiator or just fans. Leave the design of the front of the case how it is. It looks nice how it is. the air intake for this front mounted radiator is from the vents on the side and the bottom of the case.

{quoted from image: possibly allow clearance for push and pull fan configuration}

I always intended to provide a frontal mounting point for a fan, but I never thought of providing two. I like that idea! Looking at the current measurements, I think it should be possible to mount 120mm, 140mm, 180mm, and even 2x120mm fan/radiator assemblies, even in push-pull configurations (2x120 mm fan/radiator will require that the GPU isn't too long).

However, I don't see a 2x140mm fan/radiator assembly fitting in there. The only way that would work is if you didn't mount anything on top, not even fans, but that is not a configuration I should support, because the airflow design really needs fans on top to work properly.

I think push-pull fan configurations were more important before pressure optimize fans were readily available. Push-pull configurations don't increase CFM, and I'm not aware of an example where a push-pull configuration measurably improved cooling performance in a setup where pressure optimized fans were already used. That is why I'm not treating push-pull configurations as a primary requirement. The result is that I'm not intending to provide enough clearance for a push-pull configuration on top, but it should be no problem for front mounted fan/radiator assemblies.

What do you think?

[Image #3]
I included a picture and explanation of my own pc layout to show how my radiator takes in air and to show why I don't like my current case. Everything fits in there barely. Key word barely.

Wow, you crammed quite a lot in there! ;-) I think airflow would be very problematic, but I agree, you definitely got as much out of that case as you possibly could!

[Image #4]
This next picture shows location of a push pull 120/140 mm radiator. Ideally clearance for a full push pull 240/280 mm radiator in front and top would be nice. But due to space limitations I'm not sure if that would be possible. But the option to do so would be nice. Allowing for a 120/140 push pull radiator in the middle front would still allow hdd and ssd placement above or below the cooler.

Yeah, I think I already addressed this in the previous section about fan/radiator placement. Please correct me if I'm wrong or missed something.

[Image #5]
This next picture shows more possible mounting locations for odd, ssd and hdd. The odd would be slim line along bottom of case. My preference is side input from the right but any input is possible

{quoted from image: location for slim line ODD. Flat along bottom of case so as to not obstruct airflow. If you could find some way to mount HDDs and SSDs above it that could work. Make it side loading, either left or right. Though personal preference is right loading}

My current thinking is that the ODD should be mounted flat against the front of the case, at about half hight, side loading optionally left or right. I initially intended to do exactly what you're suggesting, but decided against it for these reasons:

• there actually are ventilation holes on the bottom panel below that spot. Covering that area up would get in the way of some GPU air coolers, like this one
• that space is only available if you use a GPU that is one slot thinner than the number of PCIe slots the case provides. I'd prefer it if there was no danger of realizing too late, that a three slots wide GPU and a slim ODD won't both fit at the same time.

What do you think?

[Image #5]
{quoted from image: another possible location for SSDs or HDDs flat against the side of the case}

I'm not sure if you are suggesting HDDs/SSDs be mounted to the side panel, or if you are only referring to mounting orientation. As far as mounting orientation is concerned, that is exactly how I intend HDDs/SSDs to be mounted. However, I do not intend for anything to be mounted to the side panels. I've got a case like that and it makes opening the case a real pain, as you've already got to unplug cables and such.

What do you think?

Okay, I've still got a bit to go, but I'll stop here for now. I'll get back to the rest in a day or two.

I'm already looking forward to hearing your thoughts though!

 

[a5cent]

Okay, back for the second round...

[Image #6]
I think the side panel window should be optional.

Agree. It likely won't make a difference in terms of price (or at least not one worth mentioning), but that will be an option.

[Image #6]
This picture shows my thoughts about the clearance from side of case to motherboard. If you could give some assurance of air still being able to flow over the motherboard that would be good because with all the tubes and cable I'm imagining, airflow seems to be hindered.

This is something I'm aware of, but I have yet to run a fluid dynamics simulation that includes tubing, so I don't have any hard numbers to go on. This is my current thinking:

We'll have at least three tubes running through that 85mm wide cavity. I think the tube connecting the CPU block to the GPU block can almost be ignored, as it will be rather short and not run the length of the cavity. That leaves us with at least two tubes. This is one possible configuration I currently envision (having the radiator ports, pump and reservoir at the back of the case is also possible.):



Here, one tube is routed along the flange across the top of the motherboard tray. The other is routed strait from the GPU port to the pump. I don't think such a setup would notably impact airflow within that 85mm cavity. But again, that is just my gut feeling. There is nothing scientific about it. Are you less optimistic?

[Image #7]
This image addresses the location of the frond I/O. From one of your first posts I believe this is where you said you wanted to put the front I/O. I think it would be better used as an air intake for the front radiator. Plus putting those inputs on the very front of the case would disrupt the minimalist clean look of the front. I have indicated wher I think the front I/O should go.

{quoted from image: this is my personal preference for I/O location. It doesn't have to be on this side but it should be on whatever side the ODD loads.}

I think I owe you a better rendering of how front I/O is intended to look. It's not really apparent from the current set of pictures. If you look closely at the front picture in your post, you'll see that the marked area is just a cut-out. The actual I/O panel will be set back about 2/3 of an inch. I'll provide a better rendering soon to visualize it.

The reason I'd prefer I/O to be at the front is due to accessibility. Anything on the sides is always problematic. What if one person using the case is a leftee while the other a rightee? What if the LAN party you're visiting doesn't allow the same placement as you've got on your home desk? What about the student who regularly moves back and forth between their dorm room and their parent's house, where the case can't be setup in the same way. I'd like a case where that isn't a pain.

I was actually opposed to the ODD being side loaded too, but I eventually decided it might be the best solution, and not too much of a compromise since ODD's are on their way out anyway. Still, I haven't quite yet abandoned the idea of it being top loaded either. I doubt that is how it will turn out, but I'm not ready to rule it out entirely yet either.

The I/O panel is really important however, and used often. I don't want it to ever be hard to reach or even inaccessible. That's why I'm hesitant to place it on the sides.

What are your thoughts?

[Image #7]
I do not think three pci slots are needed. But if there is a graphics card that woud use them then I am not against them.

This is an example of a GPU that is three PCIe slots wide.

Such beasts do exist. On the other hand, this case is targeted at people who intend to water cool, and today water cooling the GPU is much more interesting than water cooling the CPU. However, a water cooled GPU is at most one PCIe slot wide. In that configuration it's most likely the three PCIe slots are just a waste of space. That is the dilemma I have. The more I think about it, and the more I consider the intended audience, the more I'm inclined to think that a smaller case with just two PCIe slots would be preferable to a third PCIe slot.

Anyway, I've noted your vote. I'm also leaning in that direction, and I hope more people chime in on that aspect as well.

[Image #7]
While on the graphics card. How will it be secured. In a regular configuration the graphics card is secured by the pci slot screw and the pci lane so. But with this pci extencsion cable it seems like the graphics card is secured only by the pci slot which doesn't seem adequate.

Take a look at image #10 in my second post. The white PCIe socket you see there represents one end of the PCIe extension cable. That is mounted/soldered onto a PCB, which is itself securely fastened to the case. You can't see it here, but it will be even more rigid than the socket on your motherboard. As such, mounting of the GPU will be pretty much the same as if it were plugged into the motherboard. PCIe slot, socket and screw will hold it in place exactly as if it were in the motherboard.

[Image #7]
Also, will the pci extension cable introduce any latency to your knowledge?

No. Again, take a look at image #10 in my second post. Below it I've included a link to a blog post where someone tested some of the best and worst PCIe extension cables. Latency was never a problem. With some of the cheaper extension cables stability can be an issue though. I've put a lot of effort into getting a high quality custom built cable. Considering it will be almost identical to the high quality cable used in that test, but only 10cm long instead of 25cm or even 50cm, there will be no problems whatsoever. Guaranteed (I have a background in electronics engineering, so I understand the complexities related to high frequency signalling).

[Image #7]
Lastly dust. This case has alot of air intake, how will the dust be managed. I assume some dust covers will be used. But does that mean an extra large dust cover for the right side panel next to the psu?

Yes, a magnetic dust filter will cover almost the entire inside of the right panel.

[Image #7]
One point I want to make about all these options I have mentioned is customizability. I do not expect nor do I think it is possible to mount all the things I have mentioned at the same time. But providing the ability to mount all of them is a service to your potential customers. Someone may want only 1 radiator and tons of hdd/ssds. The ability to do that should be possible. Someone may want to mount two 280mm radiators both in push pull config and just one ssd. If possible, that should be an option, for someone wanting to mount two large radiators and tons of storage and an odd, that may not be possible and those people should probably consider a larger case or suffer serious air flow problems. But all of these options are possible in this case in my opinion. Granted I haven't gotten out my measuring stick and made precise measurements.

I completely understood that point, even without you making it. I also completely agree.

[Image #7]
This was a lot to write and may be easier to explain/discuss over Skype or something.

I agree. If we continue this discussion in this intensity I'd also prefer Skype ;-) PM me and we can set that up!

 

[QwarkDreams]

How is it going with the case?