05-29-2014 07:14 AM
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  1. Angry_Mushroom's Avatar
    There's a reason I'm on Windows Phone. Having people scream at me from the stands that I should hate Apple instead of Google isn't going to make me switch mobile OSes. Redirecting my dislike for one OS isn't going to make me like the other anymore. OP sounds like a google apologist. Frankly, I don't think Android users and Google supporters have anything to apologize for. Google uses your user information to spy on you to make money. Some people are okay with this, others are not. While it doesn't benefit the end user, it doesn't appear to harm them.

    I'm still not sure where Apple falls into this mess.
    05-26-2014 12:45 PM
  2. Oliverspin's Avatar
    A business begins because you have a vision and you want to succeed. Years later, it's about profits, competition, and a bit of passion. That, to me, is what all this controversy stems from. You hate a company not for what it stands for, but what it has done to succeed.
    05-26-2014 12:47 PM
  3. bobbob1016's Avatar
    I agree with you about Apple, though I can't bring myself to hate them, because what they have achieved has led the way at least for some time.

    I don't however, believe your claim about Google's spying for a second: Google earn their money by getting us to click adverts. Those adverts need to be targeted to maximize Google's profits and reduce their costs, and to do that, they need to build a profile of each of us. This invasion of privacy is not for our benefit and it is a dangerous folly to pretend anything else.

    My standard advice to everyone is not to have a Google account or have an android device. Not because I have proof they're acting dishonestly, though I suspect they are, but because I want to be convinced someone is trustworthy before I trust them with important information. To my mind Google devices and services come with too many stings attached and until I can see where all those ties lead, I'm staying well away.
    Well, on the flip side of that, Google also needs to be able to sell Privacy to the end users, and if there is any significant breach of that, they lose trust, ads, and really profits all together. (Basically if no one trusts their data with Google, no one will use it)

    Personally, I'd say Google is outright honest with what they do. They don't make up the "Google Man" false advertising, as Microsoft does the exact same thing that they said Google does, but Microsoft only does it for Spam fighting, while Google does it for Spam and ads. No person would likely be able to read all that data.

    Also, up until recently, if I wanted an XB1, I would have to have a device in my house listening to *everything* I said.

    There is also this, that Microsoft read a former employee's email by hand (albeit to check that the employee leaked Windows 7 and 8):
    Microsoft scans blogger's Hotmail account to track down Windows 8 leaker | The Verge

    Personally, Google sells ads, and privacy as they can't sell ads without privacy. Microsoft sells software. It's really who you trust more. I like Google's services, and I vastly prefer their search to Bing, but I do like my Lumia as well. I don't like F.U.D. though.
    A895 and Ian Too like this.
    05-26-2014 12:51 PM
  4. A895's Avatar
    There's a reason I'm on Windows Phone. Having people scream at me from the stands that I should hate Apple instead of Google isn't going to make me switch mobile OSes. Redirecting my dislike for one OS isn't going to make me like the other anymore. OP sounds like a google apologist. Frankly, I don't think Android users and Google supporters have anything to apologize for. Google uses your user information to spy on you to make money. Some people are okay with this, others are not. While it doesn't benefit the end user, it doesn't appear to harm them.

    I'm still not sure where Apple falls into this mess.
    It does benefit the user. Take for example if you let Google Now scan your gmail and then if you have an upcoming flight, it'll display the flight info and ticket number directly in Google Now.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    Karthik Naik and bobbob1016 like this.
    05-26-2014 01:00 PM
  5. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    In confused how everyone thinks Apple is overpriced.

    iPhone costs the same as Active SE or a Lumia Icon off contract.

    The Macbook Air and Pro cost the same as any good windows laptop.

    The iMac starting price is the same as any comparable Windows AIO.

    The iPad costs the same as a surface, features aside.

    I am not seeing overpriced.

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App
    only applicable in US and UK, here apple is massively overpriced
    i dont hate apple as such, i hate google more, i like AOSP android and not google services and samsung, which imho are poor replicas of the originals
    i hate ios 7 design etc, very much fake and cartoonish, obviously takes alot of design cues etc from WP and a bit from android
    apple may be pricey but other than iphones, the ipad series and the macbook air(excluding the MBA battery wear issues, which are a big no-no) but it certainly works better than google and samsung, id rather pay more for a apple or a microsoft ecosystem than a google/samsung one
    i actually have a complete apple,microsoft, google devices ecosystem right here in my home (im a gadget enthusiast and free-advicer for friends, family and business so i buy and try before giving my views)
    other than google search(which only has good result system and bad spying system), all google services are lame
    i must also mention that apple is not really better , icloud pales in comparison to onedrive and maybe even google drive with poor management of data, transfers etc
    05-26-2014 01:28 PM
  6. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    It does benefit the user. Take for example if you let Google Now scan your gmail and then if you have an upcoming flight, it'll display the flight info and ticket number directly in Google Now.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    that actually is one excellent feature of android which i wish was better implemented in cortana
    i carry both my 720 and nexus 5 on trips and this feature is a boon for connecting flights
    05-26-2014 01:29 PM
  7. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    There's a reason I'm on Windows Phone. Having people scream at me from the stands that I should hate Apple instead of Google isn't going to make me switch mobile OSes. Redirecting my dislike for one OS isn't going to make me like the other anymore. OP sounds like a google apologist. Frankly, I don't think Android users and Google supporters have anything to apologize for. Google uses your user information to spy on you to make money. Some people are okay with this, others are not. While it doesn't benefit the end user, it doesn't appear to harm them.

    I'm still not sure where Apple falls into this mess.
    strangely i agree with you and A895 both in a way
    well said
    apple actually provides more quality despite being a bit more locked down but hey atleast its safe(excluding the SSL vulnerability, patched in 7.1.x)
    05-26-2014 01:31 PM
  8. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    for posts saying microsoft copied ios to make WP, i must remind you that WP7 and android 4.1 came out way before ios 7 , irony much design wise?!!
    ios 7 is a pathetic UI , prefer 6.1.3 anyday especially on an ipad
    05-26-2014 01:35 PM
  9. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    Well, on the flip side of that, Google also needs to be able to sell Privacy to the end users, and if there is any significant breach of that, they lose trust, ads, and really profits all together. (Basically if no one trusts their data with Google, no one will use it)

    Personally, I'd say Google is outright honest with what they do. They don't make up the "Google Man" false advertising, as Microsoft does the exact same thing that they said Google does, but Microsoft only does it for Spam fighting, while Google does it for Spam and ads. No person would likely be able to read all that data.

    Also, up until recently, if I wanted an XB1, I would have to have a device in my house listening to *everything* I said.

    There is also this, that Microsoft read a former employee's email by hand (albeit to check that the employee leaked Windows 7 and 8):
    Microsoft scans blogger's Hotmail account to track down Windows 8 leaker | The Verge

    Personally, Google sells ads, and privacy as they can't sell ads without privacy. Microsoft sells software. It's really who you trust more. I like Google's services, and I vastly prefer their search to Bing, but I do like my Lumia as well. I don't like F.U.D. though.
    google feels more like big brother with its background spying for ads etc
    i dont like my personal info being used to display ads without my permission etc, atleast microsoft asks you if you want to use a Advertising ID
    savagelizards and sahib lopez like this.
    05-26-2014 01:37 PM
  10. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Everybody who hates a company that produces consumer products can call himself lucky. How little real problems must such a person have, to waste these strong emotions on a business they need to buy nothing from?

    Well, my life is even better. I don't have a lot of problems and I hate no tech company. Lucky me I guess.

    But honestly, why the hell would you care if Apple products are overpriced or not? Obviously many people don't consider them overpriced, and if you do, you don't have to buy them. Strange world...
    That's a strange comment, given the fact that one of the primary considerations in purchasing any product, not just tech hardware, is price point and value. You may not care about it, but most people do.
    05-26-2014 02:00 PM
  11. bobbob1016's Avatar
    google feels more like big brother with its background spying for ads etc
    i dont like my personal info being used to display ads without my permission etc, atleast microsoft asks you if you want to use a Advertising ID
    You did press "I agree" with Google correct?

    The XB1 felt a lot more like Big Brother, as it was *always* listening. Also, as Microsoft makes money from the XB1, Office, WP8, and Windows itself, I'm not sure why Microsoft would have an Advertising ID to begin with tbh. Seems more big-brother-ey to me.
    A895 likes this.
    05-26-2014 02:30 PM
  12. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    You did press "I agree" with Google correct?

    The XB1 felt a lot more like Big Brother, as it was *always* listening. Also, as Microsoft makes money from the XB1, Office, WP8, and Windows itself, I'm not sure why Microsoft would have an Advertising ID to begin with tbh. Seems more big-brother-ey to me.
    yeah right so its completely OK with you to have google spy on you behind your back in background but its a sin to have microsoft give you the option to enable it and its disabled by default

    i dont give a thing about xb1, i hate console except the older ones upto ps2 and portables like psp and ps vita so i dont really care about spying there as long as its not like google

    as for me agreeing with google, hell no , id rather live in a cave than let google sell my private info to some ad retailer
    usually the ads are misleading and "kinky" or suspicious even for smallest of search results

    you seem to like the google life with poor quality,spying and sale of your info to shady ad companies etc but microsoft is a devil for offering you an off-switch
    just fyi microsoft doesnt spy with the xb1 on dear 10 year olds or something, that was a rumour before release and microsoft released a statement denying it

    microsoft makes money off us consumers and so does apple yes but atleast our data is safe and within limits and we get wayy better quality with apple and microsoft than google
    android tabs are the best example and are a huuge joke compared to the ipad and windows 8 tabs, they lack quality and smoothness
    google has become an evil corp recently , sadly , accept it and move on
    sahib lopez likes this.
    05-26-2014 02:53 PM
  13. A895's Avatar
    That's a strange comment, given the fact that one of the primary considerations in purchasing any product, not just tech hardware, is price point and value. You may not care about it, but most people do.
    Obviously when it comes to Apple they don't considering Apple makes a ton of money off mobile and their devices sell like hot cakes.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-26-2014 03:08 PM
  14. bobbob1016's Avatar
    yeah right so its completely OK with you to have google spy on you behind your back in background but its a sin to have microsoft give you the option to enable it and its disabled by default

    i dont give a thing about xb1, i hate console except the older ones upto ps2 and portables like psp and ps vita so i dont really care about spying there as long as its not like google

    as for me agreeing with google, hell no , id rather live in a cave than let google sell my private info to some ad retailer
    usually the ads are misleading and "kinky" or suspicious even for smallest of search results

    you seem to like the google life with poor quality,spying and sale of your info to shady ad companies etc but microsoft is a devil for offering you an off-switch
    just fyi microsoft doesnt spy with the xb1 on dear 10 year olds or something, that was a rumour before release and microsoft released a statement denying it

    microsoft makes money off us consumers and so does apple yes but atleast our data is safe and within limits and we get wayy better quality with apple and microsoft than google
    android tabs are the best example and are a huuge joke compared to the ipad and windows 8 tabs, they lack quality and smoothness
    google has become an evil corp recently , sadly , accept it and move on
    "Spy" and "behind your back" imply that I didn't agree to it up front. It isn't a human reading these, while it theoretically could be. Can you factually prove, with sources that Microsoft isn't watching what you type on your Windows computers and sending it back to their servers? I mean conclusively prove? And before you ask, I'm running Firefox, not Chrome.

    You might not "give a thing", but that isn't the point. That is still a big issue, and a concern. I could say "I don't use google signed in on my computers, and I use a VPN, so google tracking 'is not a thing to me'" but I still refuted the point.

    Google outright says they don't sell to an ad retailer. Do you use Facebook? They do that. Google does EBay style auctions for phrases, like "best dentist" or "fastest car" and they keep the info. There is an "off switch" by the way, called signing out. Can you point me to hard proof that they aren't listening to them? I found an article pointing the other way:
    Kinect for Xbox One: An always-on, works-in-the-dark camera and microphone. What could possibly go wrong? | ExtremeTech

    It isn't safe, as the article I mentioned shows as a fact, they can go to the server room to read anyone's email, whenever they want. Do you use PGP encrypted email for everything? No?

    I didn't say how dare they make money. What I said, or I thought at least implied was:
    Google makes their money soley off of ads. They can only get these ads if people trust them, so their privacy and profits go hand in hand. Microsoft gets money from enough places that if no one trusted their data to Microsoft, they'd still be ok.

    I like how you again referenced so many articles, and factual proof to say it's a huge joke that they lack quality and smoothness. I mean, that must be a fact, as look at sales numbers, Android is severely lagging. I like the W8 tabs, but honestly, if the "lack of quality and smoothness" was what most people felt, would they continue to buy them?

    "google has become an evil corp recently , sadly , accept it and move on" again, I like your well documented proof. I will stop using services that stop using services I find better than Microsofts, as in Google search, Gmail (I never get spam to my Gmail, yes I occasionally see an ad from Google directly, but that's better than the ads I see in my Outlook.com), and Google Voice is a lifesaver when I can't get cell signal, but I can get wifi. To each their own.

    Thanks for your hard hitting fact based expose!

    PS I like some Microsoft services better than Google's, but still, F.U.D. isn't good for anyone.
    Ivin Laney and A895 like this.
    05-26-2014 04:11 PM
  15. fatclue_98's Avatar
    In confused how everyone thinks Apple is overpriced.

    iPhone costs the same as Active SE or a Lumia Icon off contract.

    The Macbook Air and Pro cost the same as any good windows laptop.

    The iMac starting price is the same as any comparable Windows AIO.

    The iPad costs the same as a surface, features aside.

    I am not seeing overpriced.

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App
    My friend, you and I disagree sometimes and that's cool. But reading your post makes me understand why. You don't state your case very well and it can cause replies such as some of the ones you already received. Apple is indeed overpriced - if you only look at dollars and cents. Apple gives you VALUE and that line is blurry to some people. I'm a working stiff so I try to get the most from my spending. I have only bought 2 desktops in the last 13 years and they are both Macs. The only reason I bought the second one last year is because the previous one is a PowerPC model that can't upgrade past 10.5, not because there's anything wrong with it.

    I'm not one to look at phones as an investment but dollar for dollar, Apple and BlackBerry make the best devices. Unless you buy a Nexus phone, you may or may not get an upgrade so that's an automatic out for me. Rooting and custom ROMs are not an option since that just tells me the system was garbage to begin with. I've rooted dozens of Androids but in the end, I'll take an OEM with fewer bugs than a custom ROM with a ton. That's where WP comes in. Solid devices across the board and a well-thought OS to boot. To me, that's also value.
    05-26-2014 05:46 PM
  16. A895's Avatar
    My friend, you and I disagree sometimes and that's cool. But reading your post makes me understand why. You don't state your case very well and it can cause replies such as some of the ones you already received. Apple is indeed overpriced - if you only look at dollars and cents. Apple gives you VALUE and that line is blurry to some people. I'm a working stiff so I try to get the most from my spending. I have only bought 2 desktops in the last 13 years and they are both Macs. The only reason I bought the second one last year is because the previous one is a PowerPC model that can't upgrade past 10.5, not because there's anything wrong with it.

    I'm not one to look at phones as an investment but dollar for dollar, Apple and BlackBerry make the best devices. Unless you buy a Nexus phone, you may or may not get an upgrade so that's an automatic out for me. Rooting and custom ROMs are not an option since that just tells me the system was garbage to begin with. I've rooted dozens of Androids but in the end, I'll take an OEM with fewer bugs than a custom ROM with a ton. That's where WP comes in. Solid devices across the board and a well-thought OS to boot. To me, that's also value.
    I'm confused. You said they are overpriced as in dollars and cents yet they cost the same as comparable Windows Products. I'm looking at it price wise period, not perceived value. Dollar for dollar products from running Windows stuff or Apple stuff are in the same range. Whether you feel one is more valuable than another is your own opinion.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    bobbob1016 likes this.
    05-26-2014 05:59 PM
  17. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'm confused. You said they are overpriced as in dollars and cents yet they cost the same as comparable Windows Products. I'm looking at it price wise period, not perceived value. Dollar for dollar products from running Windows stuff or Apple stuff are in the same range. Whether you feel one is more valuable than another is your own opinion.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    What I meant was that Apple products are of better value for the same mount of money as their Windows counterparts. What I mean with counterparts is having equal features. You can't compare a Macbook with a $300 Toshiba. Yes, the Toshiba makes the Macbook seem very expensive but the Mac makes the same Toshiba look like a netbook purchased from AliBaba, if you know what I mean.

    Same goes for phones. You can't compare an iPhone or a BB Z30 to a Lumia 520 or a Moto G and say "Damn! Those iPhones sure are expensive!" That's my definition of value. Catch my drift?
    05-26-2014 06:18 PM
  18. colinkiama's Avatar
    What I meant was that Apple products are of better value for the same mount of money as their Windows counterparts. What I mean with counterparts is having equal features. You can't compare a Macbook with a $300 Toshiba. Yes, the Toshiba makes the Macbook seem very expensive but the Mac makes the same Toshiba look like a netbook purchased from AliBaba, if you know what I mean.
    Iphone 5s vs Lumia 920. The iphone is definitely more expensive and the 920 has a better camera 8mp vs 8.7mp pureview, better screen 4inch 1136 x 640 vs 4.5inch 1280 x 768. And has the 920 has NFC and wireless charging which the 5s doesn't have. Your point is invalid.
    05-26-2014 06:26 PM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Iphone 5s vs Lumia 920. The iphone is definitely more expensive and the 920 has a better camera 8mp vs 8.7mp pureview, better screen 4inch 1136 x 640 vs 4.5inch 1280 x 768. And has the 920 has NFC and wireless charging which the 5s doesn't have. Your point is invalid.
    The 5S also has a 64-bit processor, metal construction and much higher resale value. Like I said, value means more than dollars and cents. My point is not only valid, it's vindicated. I don't like the iPhone or iOS, but I'm not blind to its virtues. Just like I don't care for Scarlett Johansson, but there's no denying she's smoking hot.
    05-26-2014 06:41 PM
  20. A895's Avatar
    What I meant was that Apple products are of better value for the same mount of money as their Windows counterparts. What I mean with counterparts is having equal features. You can't compare a Macbook with a $300 Toshiba. Yes, the Toshiba makes the Macbook seem very expensive but the Mac makes the same Toshiba look like a netbook purchased from AliBaba, if you know what I mean.

    Same goes for phones. You can't compare an iPhone or a BB Z30 to a Lumia 520 or a Moto G and say "Damn! Those iPhones sure are expensive!" That's my definition of value. Catch my drift?
    I am talking about high end models just like Apples stuff. I am not talking about budget items. Why would I compare an iPhone to a 520? I am comparing high end to high end, which is fair.
    05-26-2014 07:04 PM
  21. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Apple is indeed overpriced - if you only look at dollars and cents. Apple gives you VALUE and that line is blurry to some people.
    I agree that your argument is much better than the other guy's argument if you couch it in terms of value for cost. The other guy was just being lazy and obstinate trying to argue that the apt comparison with the Icon would be the 5c 16GB. No one in their right mind would compare those two because the Icon has double the storage and the 5c is the watered-down version of the iPhone. Now it is debatable whether the Icon should be compared to the 5s or 5c 32GB, but either way those versions of the iPhone are $100 and $200 pricier. Thus, they are overpriced from a straight price analysis. You can make the argument that the iPhone has $100-200 in "value" added over the Icon. I don't think that's the case, but it's a much better argument than the lame comparison between Apple and oranges that the other guy made.
    05-26-2014 07:22 PM
  22. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I am talking about high end models just like Apples stuff. I am not talking about budget items. Why would I compare an iPhone to a 520? I am comparing high end to high end, which is fair.
    That was the point of my first response. There are some on these boards that have, and continue to, compare iPhones to most others based on price point alone and criticize you and others for trying to justify Apple's pricing. Some people simply can't get past the fact that Apple does not make budget devices. I find that hilarious because making that complaint sounds like a thinly veiled attempt at admitting you like an iPhone but you can't afford it.

    Why would Mercedes market a car to compete with a KIA? No offense to KIAs, I owned a Sorento.
    Last edited by fatclue_98; 05-26-2014 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Grammatical Brain Farts
    05-26-2014 07:23 PM
  23. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I agree that your argument is much better than the other guy's argument if you couch it in terms of value for cost. The other guy was just being lazy and obstinate trying to argue that the apt comparison with the Icon would be the 5c 16GB. No one in their right mind would compare those two because the Icon has double the storage and the 5c is the watered-down version of the iPhone. Now it is debatable whether the Icon should be compared to the 5s or 5c 32GB, but either way those versions of the iPhone are $100 and $200 pricier. Thus, they are overpriced from a straight price analysis. You can make the argument that the iPhone has $100-200 in "value" added over the Icon. I don't think that's the case, but it's a much better argument than the lame comparison between Apple and oranges that the other guy made.
    Thank you for understanding my reasoning. Let me add that if you compare the going prices for a 920 (I'm using the 920 since that was the example thrown at me) on eBay, for example, you'll note they're in the $175-$225 range but there are iPhone 4S models still in the high $200s and the 5S is in the high rent district. Whether real or perceived, the value is there and there's no denying it.
    05-26-2014 07:33 PM
  24. colinkiama's Avatar
    Thank you for understanding my reasoning. Let me add that if you compare the going prices for a 920 (I'm using the 920 since that was the example thrown at me) on eBay, for example, you'll note they're in the $175-$225 range but there are iPhone 4S models still in the high $200s and the 5S is in the high rent district. Whether real or perceived, the value is there and there's no denying it.
    Let's get back to the topic. What does having a higher resale value got to do with improving user experience.
    05-26-2014 07:54 PM
  25. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Thank you for understanding my reasoning. Let me add that if you compare the going prices for a 920 (I'm using the 920 since that was the example thrown at me) on eBay, for example, you'll note they're in the $175-$225 range but there are iPhone 4S models still in the high $200s and the 5S is in the high rent district. Whether real or perceived, the value is there and there's no denying it.
    Those models are a bit trickier to evaluate from an "overpriced" standpoint because the prices reflect the market (which reflects supply and demand), not pricing from the manufacturer or inherent value. I too have a 920 and would never trade it for an iPhone 4s, strictly because of the screen size disparity. I think a 3.5" phone is way outdated and detrimental regardless of the OS and build. Some people might kill to have an iPhone for $200 even if it has 8GB and a display the size of a postage stamp.

    I very rarely hear anyone effectively argue that a new iPhone is not overpriced by about $50-$250, depending on the model when compared to high end Android and Windows phones (I suppose you could toss in BlackBerry as well). Specs and features don't lie. It's fine if Apple can get away with it, because some people perceive extra value, some people buy Apple products as a status symbol, and some people just don't care if they pay more. The same holds true for most other Apple devices and accessories.
    05-26-2014 08:06 PM
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