05-29-2014 07:14 AM
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  1. bobbob1016's Avatar
    As an American, I will take that on.

    The problem with our own American Government spying on us is twofold. First, we are an open society based on free speech. Our government should be afraid of the people, not the people of the Government. The ability to read our private communications allows the government almost unprecedented ability to know how to manipulate the people.

    In a democracy, you own you. The government doesn't own you. It's purpose is to serve you. Corrupting that purpose corrupts your own rights to self-determination. It's why in American law there has always been a provision for privacy.

    I am not trying to argue that Americans love our Government or that it's not corrupt or even that it's doing a reasonable job, but our imperfect system has its merits, and it's worth preserving our privacy to preserve our liberty. For me personally, that's why I don't feel comfortable in a walled-off Apple dictatorship (Stalin made the trains run on time, after all, but that's not for me), but that's another story.

    The second reason is primarily why I am opposed to the collection of any of this data, and that's because the creation and storage of this data creates an unnecessary vulnerability. The government has proven itself vulnerable to hacking across the board. Should we assume that the NSA is so clever that it itself cannot be hacked? Knowledge is power, and if the NSA is collecting all our phone and email traffic and someone knows how to access that data, they could manipulate outcomes for their own benefit. It could be anything from betting on sports (imagine if you knew that the star quarterback was having blinding headaches that he was hiding from the coaching staff) to betting on the stock market (the CEO was having second thoughts about that big merger) to whose wife or husband was having an affair.

    For that same reason, I don't want Google indexing my email. Or storing data about my movements, or which web pages I might go to. Any centralized collection of this sort of data should be illegal.

    And for those of you that will say Google has required you to agree to its privacy policy, we all know that no one ever reads the policy, since the services they provide are not available unless you accept. Many times it's the store clerk who is setting up your new Galaxy S5 that's accepting that privacy policy anyway (I have watched this repeatedly). No one would buy an Android device and then fail to activate it's most powerful features. And Google, by requiring you to establish a gmail account to use the phone, leaves you always signed in and your device constantly reporting back everything you do.

    When I got my Nokia Icon, it was because I was making a conscious effort to remove myself from the Google ecosystem. It was initially very frustrating, because there were key holes in the OS and no good browsers. 8.1 solved virtually all of my complaints, and I am finally quite happy with my phone. And yes, my advertising ID is turned off.

    It may seem ironic given the core values of Google when the company was founded (don't be evil), but I have a lot more trust in Microsoft than I do Google. That's important, not only for my privacy now, but also for a future world in which virtually everything in our digital lives will be stored in the cloud.

    Imagine having 100gb of data on Google Drive and they announce a change to their privacy policy. Could you move it all quickly enough? Would you?

    Before you say that they would never make such a change because they would lose their user base, ask yourself why so many people willingly click accept now when they activate their smartphones. Is it because they have weighed the risks and trust Google to have their best interests at heart? Or because they just don't realize what they are giving away?

    In a democracy, you own you. Not a king or a dictator. But in Google's world, they own you - the moment you click accept. You are not simply purchasing a consumer electronics product, and you are most certainly NOT Google's customer - you are their PRODUCT.
    I agree with you on your first point, and the second one to an extent. I'd say that some data scanning is needed, but that it needs to be done right, as they couldn't scan enough to stop the Boston Bombers.

    On to the Google thing. I don't have anything signed in for Google, so they can't really track as easily. I do think that up until recently, Google was the "new kid on the block" and as a younger company, they have a lot more encryption as that's a newer thing. They were the first with two-factor authentication (I know it's not encryption, but it's a new thing) as well as the first to make their searches https iirc. There is proof that Microsoft has opened hotmail emails from a former employee to see that he leaked Windows 7 and 8.

    When they make policy changes, they do email you soon enough, but as you said no one really reads those apparently. Personally, I don't, but that's me. You can 100% absolutely use an Android device without Google. Most ROM's make you install Google packages separately, so that's one thing, but there's also FSpot. Which is an app store completely devoid of Google stuff. You then install a different mail program and browser, and bang, Android sans Google.

    If you're this security conscious, you do only use Linux/BSD, with only open-source drivers, and you've read every line, right? You use TrueCrypt whole drive encryption, not BitLocker, right? BitLocker is closed source, and the government has the keys to it as Microsoft gave them the keys, so you can't use that. You use a VPN, and PGP for everything? As well as making sure your DNS doesn't leak what sites you go to through your ISP's DNS servers, right? Otherwise, how do you *know* for a *fact* that nothing funny is going on on your computer? They could be watching you read this as we speak. And you only use BitCoin, right? The ad agencies can track you by credit card usage, even if you turn off your advertising ID. You also only use WiFi, right? As your carrier can be told to track your phone by the Government as well, I mean, it's pretty easy to figure out where you are by just seeing which towers you connect to. Does your WP ask which apps can access your data? And can you selectively turn those things off? I can tell my Z10 which apps can access which sensors, and which data, and I have XPrivacy on my GS4, so I can stop apps from accessing Contacts/Account Settings/GPS. Yes, I have to trust that that's actually happening, but still.

    As I've said, I like some Microsoft services over Google's, but as these points against Google are conjecture, and F.U.D. I figured I'd just counterpoint them. Use what you want to use, but just don't get a false sense of security.

    Microsoft opening former employee's hotmail account link for those who don't want to scan my older posts:
    Microsoft scans blogger's Hotmail account to track down Windows 8 leaker | The Verge
    Read the "UPDATE" section, as it points that the EULA says Microsoft can open your Outlook email.
    A895 likes this.
    05-27-2014 07:22 AM
  2. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    I laughed to those people who think that Google spy but MS not.
    Latest Reason To Quit Hotmail: Microsoft Admits To Spying On It
    Their are lots if news of ms spying.

    Don't you guys know about NSA case?
    And what Cortana. It's also keep records of yours interest or other things.

    If privacy is the biggest concern for you then the only solution is to stop using internet.
    i see you have dug up an article like this but have you attempted to read it? it clearly states that they went through a bloggers emails to catch a leaker , someone who was spilling the beans on their newer tech etc
    so they are actually in the right when they tried to catch an abuser of their policies unlike google who sells your info to some strange ad company and often its spam or "dirty" even for legit searches it will get double meaning ads
    05-27-2014 07:23 AM
  3. radmanvr's Avatar
    My friend posted an article on Facebook about Google buying some sort of lens company that uses the phones camera to translate words into other languages in real time and everyone loses their minds over it. They thought it was extremely awesome and how it will change the world. I told them that my Bing translate has been doing this for a while and he asked me for a link. I did better, I showed him a screenshot of Bing translate in action and he was like meh its not the same.

    Anyways, I am not a Google hater. I like some of their services while some of their services are just mediocre but it seems the Google fanboys have a totally different view.
    05-27-2014 07:34 AM
  4. A895's Avatar
    what you posted is valid but why isnt there an off switch or a way to turn it off, it would not hurt them as such because 98% of people wouldnt even use or know abt it even if they made one but im one of the 2%, thats sneaky isnt it
    There is an off switch. All you have to do is go into dashboard setting and privatize your settings. Like for me I opted out search history being saved, that way I don't get targeted ads.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 08:05 AM
  5. A895's Avatar
    As an American, I will take that on.

    The problem with our own American Government spying on us is twofold. First, we are an open society based on free speech. Our government should be afraid of the people, not the people of the Government. The ability to read our private communications allows the government almost unprecedented ability to know how to manipulate the people.

    In a democracy, you own you. The government doesn't own you. It's purpose is to serve you. Corrupting that purpose corrupts your own rights to self-determination. It's why in American law there has always been a provision for privacy.

    I am not trying to argue that Americans love our Government or that it's not corrupt or even that it's doing a reasonable job, but our imperfect system has its merits, and it's worth preserving our privacy to preserve our liberty. For me personally, that's why I don't feel comfortable in a walled-off Apple dictatorship (Stalin made the trains run on time, after all, but that's not for me), but that's another story.

    The second reason is primarily why I am opposed to the collection of any of this data, and that's because the creation and storage of this data creates an unnecessary vulnerability. The government has proven itself vulnerable to hacking across the board. Should we assume that the NSA is so clever that it itself cannot be hacked? Knowledge is power, and if the NSA is collecting all our phone and email traffic and someone knows how to access that data, they could manipulate outcomes for their own benefit. It could be anything from betting on sports (imagine if you knew that the star quarterback was having blinding headaches that he was hiding from the coaching staff) to betting on the stock market (the CEO was having second thoughts about that big merger) to whose wife or husband was having an affair.

    For that same reason, I don't want Google indexing my email. Or storing data about my movements, or which web pages I might go to. Any centralized collection of this sort of data should be illegal.

    And for those of you that will say Google has required you to agree to its privacy policy, we all know that no one ever reads the policy, since the services they provide are not available unless you accept. Many times it's the store clerk who is setting up your new Galaxy S5 that's accepting that privacy policy anyway (I have watched this repeatedly). No one would buy an Android device and then fail to activate it's most powerful features. And Google, by requiring you to establish a gmail account to use the phone, leaves you always signed in and your device constantly reporting back everything you do.

    When I got my Nokia Icon, it was because I was making a conscious effort to remove myself from the Google ecosystem. It was initially very frustrating, because there were key holes in the OS and no good browsers. 8.1 solved virtually all of my complaints, and I am finally quite happy with my phone. And yes, my advertising ID is turned off.

    It may seem ironic given the core values of Google when the company was founded (don't be evil), but I have a lot more trust in Microsoft than I do Google. That's important, not only for my privacy now, but also for a future world in which virtually everything in our digital lives will be stored in the cloud.

    Imagine having 100gb of data on Google Drive and they announce a change to their privacy policy. Could you move it all quickly enough? Would you?

    Before you say that they would never make such a change because they would lose their user base, ask yourself why so many people willingly click accept now when they activate their smartphones. Is it because they have weighed the risks and trust Google to have their best interests at heart? Or because they just don't realize what they are giving away?

    In a democracy, you own you. Not a king or a dictator. But in Google's world, they own you - the moment you click accept. You are not simply purchasing a consumer electronics product, and you are most certainly NOT Google's customer - you are their PRODUCT.
    So you by your own admission don't read the TOS and you don't want yo actually edit your setting and privatize your account.

    No you jut wanted to switch phones that's all that is.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 08:08 AM
  6. A895's Avatar
    i see you have dug up an article like this but have you attempted to read it? it clearly states that they went through a bloggers emails to catch a leaker , someone who was spilling the beans on their newer tech etc
    so they are actually in the right when they tried to catch an abuser of their policies unlike google who sells your info to some strange ad company and often its spam or "dirty" even for legit searches it will get double meaning ads
    Stop spreading FUD. They don't sell you data to ad companies. Why have you not just Binged how the make money by now?

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 08:11 AM
  7. mjrtoo's Avatar
    Stop spreading FUD. They don't sell you data to ad companies. Why have you not just Binged how the make money by now?

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    Come on, you worth for Google don't you. :-)
    BobLobIaw likes this.
    05-27-2014 08:12 AM
  8. A895's Avatar
    Come on, you worth for Google don't you. :-)
    *work

    No, I am not going to sit here while FUD gets thrown about Google when you are on the internet, you can literally search how does Google make money and get good results.



    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 08:30 AM
  9. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    Stop spreading FUD. They don't sell you data to ad companies. Why have you not just Binged how the make money by now?

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    Yes they do,but indirectly.

    It's called Adword and Adsense.

    If you bothered to actually read how they make 96% of their revenue stream and how they utilized their data mining you would understand this.

    They take data off their servers from your using their services and auction this to those businesses willing to pay for them.


    So yes,they are selling yours mine and anyone else's data.

    You can argue for it as being beneficial,but don't be naive enough to think that they don't when in fact that is exactly what they do.

    Privacy is a very great concern to all of us.Just because you don't care,doesn't mean that the rest of us don't.

    Mac
    05-27-2014 08:40 AM
  10. bobbob1016's Avatar
    i see you have dug up an article like this but have you attempted to read it? it clearly states that they went through a bloggers emails to catch a leaker , someone who was spilling the beans on their newer tech etc
    so they are actually in the right when they tried to catch an abuser of their policies unlike google who sells your info to some strange ad company and often its spam or "dirty" even for legit searches it will get double meaning ads
    Do you even know how Google gets ads? What you described is how Facebook does it. Google sells ads like ebay. Google retains 100% of the actual data. They say "50,000 people searched for "Best Dentist in New York" we'll start the bidding to be ad, not top result, at $1000. That is how it happens. Point blank, done.

    The article says they did it to catch a leaker, yes. They didn't do it through legal channels. What's to stop them from saying "We donated 50 million to politician X, we have every right to see who donated to politician Y in our company as that goes against our corporate stance." They have since said they'll go through proper channels, and get a subpoena, but still.
    05-27-2014 08:46 AM
  11. bobbob1016's Avatar
    Yes they do,but indirectly.

    It's called Adword and Adsense.

    If you bothered to actually read how they make 96% of their revenue stream and how they utilized their data mining you would understand this.

    They take data off their servers from your using their services and auction this to those businesses willing to pay for them.


    So yes,they are selling yours mine and anyone else's data.

    You can argue for it as being beneficial,but don't be naive enough to think that they don't when in fact that is exactly what they do.

    Privacy is a very great concern to all of us.Just because you don't care,doesn't mean that the rest of us don't.

    Mac
    They don't sell your data, they add you as a number saying "We have 50,000 people searching for X, lets start the bidding at $1000". They never say "MDMcAtee searched for F.U.D." even though you seem to have.
    A895 likes this.
    05-27-2014 08:48 AM
  12. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Microsoft never had a chance at taking Android in the first place. No one does in reality. If anything Microsoft should focus on building on what they have instead of focusing on taking either one of them.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    Not so fast, history has shown that it can happen. There was a time when BlackBerry (RIM) had a tighter stranglehold on the smartphone market. There was a time when Nokia ruled the sales charts. I'm certainly not implying that WP is going to be the OS that unseats Android, but Android shouldn't rest on its laurels or think it'll be king forever. Just ask General Motors.
    BobLobIaw likes this.
    05-27-2014 08:54 AM
  13. Chregu's Avatar
    Not so fast, history has shown that it can happen. There was a time when BlackBerry (RIM) had a tighter stranglehold on the smartphone market. There was a time when Nokia ruled the sales charts. I'm certainly not implying that WP is going to be the OS that unseats Android, but Android shouldn't rest on its laurels or think it'll be king forever. Just ask General Motors.
    Things can change within few years, that's true. Usually these things change not out of nothing though. Nokia was leading in selling dumb-phones, then Apple came along and produced a pretty dumb smartphone targeting the common user, when Microsoft still was thinking a smartphone has to be a little computer and only business user would ever want it. Apple changed the market with this approach, but targeted only the highest price class. Google took the opportunity and filled in the rest of the market share with Android devices while only attacking the highest price class partially. And that's were we are now.

    Microsoft doesn't really do something new or better. Just as good might not cut it.

    But in general I agree with you, things can change very fast.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    05-27-2014 09:00 AM
  14. fatclue_98's Avatar
    No, it's valid, and opinion. What everyone has been saying is value is relative. Personally, I don't care about the construction of the phone as if I'm going to use a case, who cares? 64 bit in a phone doesn't make much sense yet either. I like NFC and Wireless charging, I think those have more value as they're more functional. Here's a case and point:
    http://www.vaautoracing.org/images4/RiceBurner2.JPG
    Someone gives this car a lot of value. I don't, as I *hate* imports. If I had this car as stock, I'd gladly trade it for a muscle car (that was in decent condition), even if the resell value of the muscle car was much less, because personally, I value a good Mustang (even a foxbody) over any import any day.

    Tl;dr, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
    I think we can agree or disagree on just about any subject. But I will not allow you to diss Fox-bodied Mustangs in that fashion. 15 lashes with a header pipe for you.
    tgp likes this.
    05-27-2014 09:01 AM
  15. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    They don't sell your data, they add you as a number saying "We have 50,000 people searching for X, lets start the bidding at $1000". They never say "MDMcAtee searched for F.U.D." even though you seem to have.
    Wrong....

    If I get spam in my email from some of these companies as a direct result of their data mining on my account,which has happened plenty of times...they are invading my privacy,and have sold my data to a 2nd and 3rd party.

    Think again....it's all automatically done,when a business signs up........

    Google's business model does this which is why they are making money hand over fist on it.

    You have no privacy policy....you agree to it when you signed up for the services.
    05-27-2014 09:11 AM
  16. lcw731's Avatar
    Lambs to the slaughter? Are we talking about smartphones here or some weird, satanic ritual, lol.



    When talking about Google, it's the same thing.





    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk
    05-27-2014 09:27 AM
  17. lcw731's Avatar
    It does benefit the user. Take for example if you let Google Now scan your gmail and then if you have an upcoming flight, it'll display the flight info and ticket number directly in Google Now.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app



    While also displaying a ad for Viagra because your best friend from high school jokingly called you limp d**k.





    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk
    05-27-2014 09:29 AM
  18. bobbob1016's Avatar
    Wrong....

    If I get spam in my email from some of these companies as a direct result of their data mining on my account,which has happened plenty of times...they are invading my privacy,and have sold my data to a 2nd and 3rd party.

    Think again....it's all automatically done,when a business signs up........

    Google's business model does this which is why they are making money hand over fist on it.

    You have no privacy policy....you agree to it when you signed up for the services.
    No. That is wrong from the start. You know spam email is way older than Google, right? And older than Data Mining, right? You put your email on a third party site, and they sold your address, not Google.

    Do you get any spam to your Outlook/Hotmail? If you don't, my follow up is, have you ever entered that email address anywhere apart from a friend's contact list? Even then, it's possible they could have their contacts hacked, and then your email is in a spammer's hands.

    "Google's business model does this which is why they are making money hand over fist on it." as is Microsoft.

    "You have no privacy policy....you agree to it when you signed up for the services." You have no sentence structure, as the first part of that contradicts the second part. I either don't have one, or I agreed to the policy, which is it?
    A895 likes this.
    05-27-2014 09:43 AM
  19. A895's Avatar
    Yes they do,but indirectly.

    It's called Adword and Adsense.

    If you bothered to actually read how they make 96% of their revenue stream and how they utilized their data mining you would understand this.

    They take data off their servers from your using their services and auction this to those businesses willing to pay for them.


    So yes,they are selling yours mine and anyone else's data.

    You can argue for it as being beneficial,but don't be naive enough to think that they don't when in fact that is exactly what they do.

    Privacy is a very great concern to all of us.Just because you don't care,doesn't mean that the rest of us don't.

    Mac
    No they don't! I can't with this forum.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 09:48 AM
  20. A895's Avatar
    Not so fast, history has shown that it can happen. There was a time when BlackBerry (RIM) had a tighter stranglehold on the smartphone market. There was a time when Nokia ruled the sales charts. I'm certainly not implying that WP is going to be the OS that unseats Android, but Android shouldn't rest on its laurels or think it'll be king forever. Just ask General Motors.
    Its not resting in its laurels though.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 09:49 AM
  21. A895's Avatar
    Wrong....

    If I get spam in my email from some of these companies as a direct result of their data mining on my account,which has happened plenty of times...they are invading my privacy,and have sold my data to a 2nd and 3rd party.

    Think again....it's all automatically done,when a business signs up........

    Google's business model does this which is why they are making money hand over fist on it.

    You have no privacy policy....you agree to it when you signed up for the services.
    They don't data mine. I thought you were knowledgeable, and you can google or bing the info. Stop guessing.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 09:50 AM
  22. A895's Avatar
    When talking about Google, it's the same thing.





    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk
    It's not but Ok.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-27-2014 09:51 AM
  23. A895's Avatar
    While also displaying a ad for Viagra because your best friend from high school jokingly called you limp d**k.





    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk
    No.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    bobbob1016 likes this.
    05-27-2014 09:51 AM
  24. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Folks, riddle me this. What did people do prior to Google? I know the answer but I want to see some other responses. I'll give you a hint, you don't need Google to have a happy, productive life. In fact, you don't even need to have Google services on your Android phone. YES!!!! It's possible!!! Mine eyes have seen the glory!!!
    tgp and lcw731 like this.
    05-27-2014 09:51 AM
  25. bobbob1016's Avatar
    While also displaying a ad for Viagra because your best friend from high school jokingly called you limp d**k.

    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk
    I may have to disagree with A895 slightly, as technically, yes, they would show you that. If that is the *only* email you have ever sent. Otherwise other words and phrases would be much higher on their ad queue.
    Last edited by bobbob1016; 05-27-2014 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Somehow my answer got lost in the quote.
    05-27-2014 09:58 AM
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