12-14-2014 01:43 AM
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  1. thesachd's Avatar
    They both go hand in hand in my opinion. Have a look at this recent article:
    AnandTech | Encryption and Storage Performance in Android 5.0 Lollipop

    Google did people wrong with FDE. The Nexus 6 is of course a very powerful device and its real-world performance won't suffer because of this encryption. The Nexus 4/5 don't get this performance penalty because only new devices that ship with Lollipop will have this enabled by default.

    The drops in performance will be felt by devices that don't run on powerful hardware. The N6 benchmarks slower than the N5 with encryption on. Imagine what kind of mess the lower-end devices will suffer.

    So, I wouldn't say the 5.0 is without its faults. Even if it does many things right, it gets plenty of them wrong.
    Encryption worries me too. It worries me too. :/
    11-22-2014 01:21 PM
  2. etad putta's Avatar
    And another lollipop delay, it's vaporware until it makes it to YOUR device...Android Lollipop for Google Play Edition HTC One (M8) and (M7) delayed until further notice | 9to5Google
    11-22-2014 01:57 PM
  3. thesachd's Avatar
    And another lollipop delay, it's vaporware until it makes it to YOUR device...Android Lollipop for Google Play Edition HTC One (M8) and (M7) delayed until further notice | 9to5Google
    Please tell me how all Lumia devices received Lumia Cyan the same day. -_-
    KhawarNadeem likes this.
    11-22-2014 02:03 PM
  4. satrus08's Avatar
    Please tell me how all Lumia devices received Lumia Cyan the same day. -_-
    He wasn't comparing, just stating a fact.

    On topic:
    And actually I'm an android user, and many people will agree with me when I say this, just check Android central, once you get passed the hype, there actually isn't much to lollipop. Especially to the general consumer. But what they did change makes a huge difference. The new UI and UX and how things are accessed. I personally don't like the new look and feel but many people do. Actually many people are pretty divided on the new looks.

    One thing can't be argued against though, some places they definitely went form over functionality. And all those bright colors and white, without offering a dark theme!

    But I base this off of reading and watching many reviews since I don't have lollipop yet. So I'm not going to write it off completely until I try it. Probably won't update my device until I try it on a friend's phone first though.
    Laura Knotek and tanya shah1 like this.
    11-22-2014 02:23 PM
  5. EBUK's Avatar
    What is it with the Play, Record and Stop buttons in Lollipop?

    I can only imagine they reflect how Android is a data collecting device for Google...

    Play button (triangle) plays back data back to Google (confirming what it has already recorded)
    Record button (circle) records all future data directly to Google's servers
    Stop button (square) negates all privacy options you've invoked, and allows the phone to collect more data until you reset your privacy preferences.

    It doesn't matter how good Android looks, it will always be a device for data harvesting.
    tanya shah1 likes this.
    11-22-2014 02:39 PM
  6. thesachd's Avatar
    What is it with the Play, Record and Stop buttons in Lollipop?

    I can only imagine they reflect how Android is a data collecting device for Google...

    Play button (triangle) plays back data back to Google (confirming what it has already recorded)
    Record button (circle) records all future data directly to Google's servers
    Stop button (square) negates all privacy options you've invoked, and allows the phone to collect more data until you reset your privacy preferences.

    It doesn't matter how good Android looks, it will always be a device for data harvesting.
    -_-

    I wish you had proof to back up that statement.
    11-22-2014 02:40 PM
  7. EBUK's Avatar
    Just my imagination at work. The only thing for certain is that Google harvests data! (And so does MS, although to a lesser degree, I suspect.)
    tanya shah1 likes this.
    11-22-2014 03:08 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    The only thing for certain is that Google harvests data! (And so does MS, although to a lesser degree, I suspect.)
    This is not really a useful way of thinking about the issue, although it is common. Every IT service collects data. It's impossible to provide people access to e-mails for example, if the service provider doesn't collect those e-mails! It's impossible to sort people's photographs by date, and present them in that order, if those cloud storage services can't extract that date from a photograph's EXIF data! Basically, it's impossible to build such services without having software at least partially inspect the data that is uploaded to their servers, which is why all cloud service providers must admit to doing so. That makes the ToS of all cloud service providers sound very similar. The differences are only in the details, but those details can have significant consequences.

    One of the biggest differences is how and what else the collected data is used for! Google is the only company that combines all the data collected from across its various services into a single and centralized behavioural profile. MS doesn't allow it's various services to exchange information in that way. Google also fails to precisely specify which 3rd parties are provided access to that information, implying that is their business alone. MS however specifically states that the only 3rd parties given access to that information are the IT workers that administer their various data centres across the world. Despite looking rather minor, those are huge differences, upon which the continued cooperation between MS and many of their enterprise customers depends.

    Behind the scenes, MS and Google are two very different companies with completely different business models. Both companies have very different incentives when it comes to user's data. For one company it's practically the only way to earn money, which is why Google's CEO frequently take the position that nothing should be private. MS on the other hand has a lot of money riding on their ability to keep their customer's data confidential. In many ways they are the complete opposites of each other.

    To be fair, Google does allow you to take complete control of your information, in a far more comprehensive way than MS does. Very few people make use of those capabilities however.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-22-2014 at 04:32 PM. Reason: spelling
    11-22-2014 03:41 PM
  9. thesachd's Avatar
    This is not really a useful way of thinking about the issue, although it is common. Every IT service collects data. It's impossible to provide people access to e-mails for example, if the service provider doesn't collect those e-mails! It's impossible to sort people's photographs by date, and present them in that order, if those cloud storage services can't extract that date from a photograph's EXIF data! Basically, it's impossible to build such services without having software at least partially inspect the data that is uploaded to their servers, which is why all cloud service providers must admit to doing so. That makes the ToS of all cloud service providers sound very similar. The differences are only in the details, but those details can have significant consequences.

    One of the biggest difference is how and what else the collected data is used for! Google is the only company that combines all the data collected from across its various services into a single and centralized behavioural profile. MS doesn't allow it's various services to exchange information in that way. Google also fails to precisely specify which 3rd parties are provided access to that information, implying that is their business alone. MS however specifically states that the only 3rd parties given access to that information are the IT workers that administer their various data centres across the world. Despite looking rather minor, those are huge differences, upon which the continued cooperation between MS and many of their enterprise customers depends.

    Behind the scenes, MS and Google are two very different companies with completely different business models. Both companies have very different incentives when it comes to user's data. For one company it's practically the only way to earn money, which is why their CEO frequently take the position that nothing should be private. MS on the other hand has a lot of money riding on their ability to keep their customers data confidential. In many ways they are the complete opposite of each other.

    To be fair, Google does allow you to take complete control of your information, in a far more comprehensive way than MS does. Very few people make use of those capabilities however.
    You are one of the most well informed people on this forum. Even when you have disagreed with me, you've provided proof for it.

    You sir deserve to be a mod!
    Muessig, a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-22-2014 04:02 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    You are one of the most well informed people on this forum. Even when you have disagreed with me, you've provided proof for it.

    You sir deserve to be a mod!
    Thank you for that compliment! TBH though, being informed is not the most important thing if you want to be a mod. Social competence is, and I think in that regard many of the mods can 1up me.
    thesachd likes this.
    11-22-2014 04:27 PM
  11. KhawarNadeem's Avatar
    Please tell me how all Lumia devices received Lumia Cyan the same day. -_-
    Haha. This undeniable burn.
    I'm with you on this one. People bash Android for not getting updates on time, but at least Google's own Nexus devices get updates at the same time, and if they don't get them OTA, the images are uploaded so people can help themselves.

    The only company who gets OTA right is Apple. Neither Google, nor Microsoft (with all this firmware update mess) get the updates globally on time. Carrier devices delays, fine, but unlocked devices, nope. The general public doesn't know about Preview For Developers anyway, so it doesn't count. The 8.1/Cyan rollout was a mess.
    thesachd likes this.
    11-23-2014 04:52 AM
  12. Steve Adams's Avatar
    Haha. This undeniable burn.
    I'm with you on this one. People bash Android for not getting updates on time, but at least Google's own Nexus devices get updates at the same time, and if they don't get them OTA, the images are uploaded so people can help themselves.

    The only company who gets OTA right is Apple. Neither Google, nor Microsoft (with all this firmware update mess) get the updates globally on time. Carrier devices delays, fine, but unlocked devices, nope. The general public doesn't know about Preview For Developers anyway, so it doesn't count. The 8.1/Cyan rollout was a mess.
    Still not 1/1000 th as bad as every android roll out ever released. First android releases a new OS, then the phone manufacturers get it, sit with their thumbs up their collective asses for 3 - 6 months, then after they get around to doing something with it, the service providers then get new android from the phone makers. Then the service providers take another 3-6 months again with their thumbs up their collective asses trying to figure out what to add/take away from said new android so they can get the most money out of it (i.e. advertising installed). So your have a 6-12 month wait for new android to get to most devices. by that time, google has already released a new version again. Android is so fragmented that its a free for all , from google themselves, to the phone makers, to the carriers. Its a mess really. At least MS has one major build for its os being supported, and Is supporting updating all phones running 8.1 to get 10. I have to say Apple is the best for updates. But I see MS going this route soon to keep phone manufacturers and carriers out of the equation.

    I know when I was using android phones and ICS was switching to JB, My galaxy phone had to wait 8 months before it was supported. And then Im sure it wasn't even tested as it lagged so bad it was un useable.

    At least when a new MS update comes out, I know its smooth and works as intended on whatever device its downloaded too. 8.1 is smooth on my 1020 as it is on my 520.

    As for your comment about android images being available to use, The general public does not know about that either. So how can you even make that an issue? The general public does not root their phones, and side load images just as the General public does not use developers preview. Actually I bet more users per ratio use DP than root their androids as the processes is way more simple than trying to root.
    11-23-2014 05:19 AM
  13. Poirots Progeny's Avatar
    Still not 1/1000 th as bad as every android roll out ever released. First android releases a new OS, then the phone manufacturers get it, sit with their thumbs up their collective asses for 3 - 6 months, then after they get around to doing something with it, the service providers then get new android from the phone makers. Then the service providers take another 3-6 months again with their thumbs up their collective asses trying to figure out what to add/take away from said new android so they can get the most money out of it (i.e. advertising installed). So your have a 6-12 month wait for new android to get to most devices. by that time, google has already released a new version again. Android is so fragmented that its a free for all , from google themselves, to the phone makers, to the carriers. Its a mess really. At least MS has one major build for its os being supported, and Is supporting updating all phones running 8.1 to get 10. I have to say Apple is the best for updates. But I see MS going this route soon to keep phone manufacturers and carriers out of the equation.

    I know when I was using android phones and ICS was switching to JB, My galaxy phone had to wait 8 months before it was supported. And then Im sure it wasn't even tested as it lagged so bad it was un useable.

    At least when a new MS update comes out, I know its smooth and works as intended on whatever device its downloaded too. 8.1 is smooth on my 1020 as it is on my 520.

    As for your comment about android images being available to use, The general public does not know about that either. So how can you even make that an issue? The general public does not root their phones, and side load images just as the General public does not use developers preview. Actually I bet more users per ratio use DP than root their androids as the processes is way more simple than trying to root.
    Well said, though Samsung, htc and lg are all going to be getting lollipop by the end of the year - so at least they're trying to push it out. Though what carriers will do with it Lord only knows
    11-23-2014 05:37 AM
  14. KhawarNadeem's Avatar
    As for your comment about android images being available to use, The general public does not know about that either. So how can you even make that an issue? The general public does not root their phones, and side load images just as the General public does not use developers preview. Actually I bet more users per ratio use DP than root their androids as the processes is way more simple than trying to root.
    Well, the images *are* only for Nexus devices which aren't intended to be consumer devices anyway... PFD is still way better, of course, since even if those images don't require rooting, it's still a longer process than PFD.
    Android updates, for non-Nexus, non-(recent)Moto, and non-PlayEdition phones are really very horrible. Of which Samsung has likely the worst track record, since their updates are either very late or don't come at all. There are even rumors that year's S4 might not get Lollipop at all.

    Android OEMs have no accountability. That's what stops them. Google doesn't care. MS *does* care, though. At least about updates, no matter if they're timely or not. I really hope to see the update process becoming as smooth as the iPhones, or even Nexus series, especially for the in-house Lumia devices, since they're the Nexus equivalents in the WP space.
    tanya shah1 likes this.
    11-23-2014 10:09 AM
  15. thesachd's Avatar
    Well, the images *are* only for Nexus devices which aren't intended to be consumer devices anyway... PFD is still way better, of course, since even if those images don't require rooting, it's still a longer process than PFD.
    Android updates, for non-Nexus, non-(recent)Moto, and non-PlayEdition phones are really very horrible. Of which Samsung has likely the worst track record, since their updates are either very late or don't come at all. There are even rumors that year's S4 might not get Lollipop at all.

    Android OEMs have no accountability. That's what stops them. Google doesn't care. MS *does* care, though. At least about updates, no matter if they're timely or not. I really hope to see the update process becoming as smooth as the iPhones, or even Nexus series, especially for the in-house Lumia devices, since they're the Nexus equivalents in the WP space.
    Google does care actually it tried for OEMs to sign an 18 month update cycle agreement. Sadly not many agreed.
    11-23-2014 10:23 AM
  16. Ticomfreak's Avatar
    Project Volta will do absolutely nothing. Remember "Project Butter" that was supposed to kill Windows Phone and iOS is speed and smoothness? It barely did anything.
    tanya shah1 likes this.
    11-23-2014 10:41 AM
  17. thesachd's Avatar
    Project Volta will do absolutely nothing. Remember "Project Butter" that was supposed to kill Windows Phone and iOS is speed and smoothness? It barely did anything.
    Project Butter and Svelte we're pretty successful:



    11-23-2014 10:56 AM
  18. EBUK's Avatar
    Haha. This undeniable burn.
    People bash Android for not getting updates on time, but at least Google's own Nexus devices get updates at the same time...
    Who is it preventing Windows Phones getting updates - Microsoft or the networks? If it's the networks, then why not buy an unlocked device?

    Even Motorola, who has promised updates to Lollipop for its more recent handsets says updates are dependent on its partners (presumably that means networks.)

    I agree, Apple is the only manufacturer to do things right regarding OS upgrades. How come the carriers don't need to test iOS?!
    11-23-2014 12:00 PM
  19. KhawarNadeem's Avatar
    Who is it preventing Windows Phones getting updates - Microsoft or the networks? If it's the networks, then why not buy an unlocked device?

    Even Motorola, who has promised updates to Lollipop for its more recent handsets says updates are dependent on its partners (presumably that means networks.)

    I agree, Apple is the only manufacturer to do things right regarding OS upgrades. How come the carriers don't need to test iOS?!
    Well, the Cyan rollout for unlocked handsets was very slow, itself. Carriers had no say in that.

    How long was Lollipop released? It just arrived for Nexus 4, etc, only about two weeks ago I think. And now, today I see:
    Moto testing out the Lollipop update for Verizon's Moto X (2014) - GSMArena Blog

    This is the same Verizon that isn't even updating the Icon.

    Summary: Carriers are evil, but MS needs to a single worldwide rollout themselves too. God knows they have the resources for it.
    11-23-2014 12:49 PM
  20. EBUK's Avatar
    Thanks for that. So MS is partly to blame.

    As for the likes of Samsung and Sony rolling out the Lollipop update, this is only for the latest handsets. Plenty of their handsets are stuck on 4.3...
    11-23-2014 01:45 PM
  21. Steve Adams's Avatar
    Project Butter and Svelte we're pretty successful:



    Project butter made no difference to androids smoothness at all. My two android devices reacted the same before and after the update, slow and laggy.
    tanya shah1 likes this.
    11-25-2014 05:55 AM
  22. psoham777's Avatar
    Project butter made no difference to androids smoothness at all. My two android devices reacted the same before and after the update, slow and laggy.

    Well there's a reason why its known Lagdroid.
    tanya shah1 likes this.
    11-25-2014 06:45 AM
  23. thesachd's Avatar
    Project butter made no difference to androids smoothness at all. My two android devices reacted the same before and after the update, slow and laggy.
    While yes Project Butter was not able to eliminate lag completely it was still extremely successful, Project Svelte did a pretty good job of mostly finishing the loose ends.
    11-25-2014 07:15 AM
  24. thesachd's Avatar
    Well there's a reason why its known Lagdroid.
    Those single line responses and those clichd expressions serve really no purpose in a thread where people come up with intelligent responses to the argument that is being discussed.

    Just as you say lagdroid with nothing to back it up I could say that Windows Phone has "NO APPPSSSSS!!!" or "no customisation!!!!". And frankly both statements would be more true than yours.

    Nonetheless if you have an argument about Android's performance please go onto present it, because I've been using a Nexus 5 running Lollipop and it has been running flawlessly(apart from few animation flaw once or twice).
    11-25-2014 10:03 AM
  25. thesachd's Avatar
    I recently came across a thread on Android Central about a person that feared Windows Phone will take over, after a bit of inspecting I realised that the post was from 2011, and I laughed my *** off when I saw that Windows Phone hadn't even gained a 5% marketshare near the end of 2014.

    But one interesting post on page 4 or 5 by GeoDude described Windows Phone quite we'll:

    "The inherent flaws with WP8 is that it has all of the limitations of iOS, but none of the app support to make up for it. It's basically a crippled iOS with a different UI.

    In the beginning, Android didn't have the app support of iOS either. But how it differed was the free reign it gave you to your files, and it allowed customization like widgets/rooting/launchers/custom ROMs etc.

    WP8 has none of that. It has nothing going for it compared to iOS or Android."

    Android 5.0 may not be a big deal to you guys, but it is another step towards ensuring Android dominance in almost all places.
    Soulstream likes this.
    11-25-2014 10:08 AM
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