09-10-2014 07:18 PM
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  1. Bee Mon's Avatar
    Regarding another fallacy opinion, we have not published anywhere in our post or replies that we support IAP exclusively. The only thing we mentioned in a reply is that we love to support all available payment options in order to reach a wider audience. How this translates to IAP in someone's mind, I'm not sure but its important that I should clarify this. From this point on I will no longer address any queries or opinions on software that is not already on the Windows Phone Store; either in a beta or launch state, because that is not the point of this thread, and there will be a separate product page at that time to address your concerns. Meanwhile any specific queries can be sent to me through PM.
    09-05-2014 01:34 AM
  2. Cortimi's Avatar
    So what's the name of your company, so I know what to look for?
    09-05-2014 01:58 AM
  3. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    Nothing new about Apple policies. The renown of their arrogance has reached global scale.
    09-05-2014 02:24 AM
  4. Bee Mon's Avatar
    So what's the name of your company, so I know what to look for?
    We're leaving the company out of it for the moment. Software development is not the core business of our company at the moment, it's something that we are only just returning back into after years being away. We do not want users to search for us and get anything that is not WP apps/games related nor get an empty page as there are no apps/games released yet. We will be documenting the progression of our port in the Developer's Corner here. I'm afraid that is the only way to track us at the moment.
    09-05-2014 02:26 AM
  5. StephanW's Avatar
    I think "we have a lot of serious developers that do not want their quality apps to be surrounded by amateur hour." leaves little room for interpretation.
    Just my point: You guys here say this sentence is arrogant. But it's also 110% true!
    Every single customer doesn't want **** apps! I HATE Windows Phone apps who aren't looking pretty on my 1320. Or aren't written in HD 720p resolution so it gets stretched out where lots of bad things happen. So, perhaps it's a little arrogant to people who just get their first app together.

    But Apple is #1 in "App on the Mobile Phone" and they didn't get there by being nice to everyone.
    Dk92 likes this.
    09-05-2014 03:17 AM
  6. Localhorst86's Avatar
    Just my point: You guys here say this sentence is arrogant. But it's also 110% true!
    Every single customer doesn't want **** apps! I HATE Windows Phone apps who aren't looking pretty on my 1320. Or aren't written in HD 720p resolution so it gets stretched out where lots of bad things happen. So, perhaps it's a little arrogant to people who just get their first app together.

    But Apple is #1 in "App on the Mobile Phone" and they didn't get there by being nice to everyone.
    I agree with you on the intention of the mentioned passus. I feel that the goal of the section is definatelly positive (and I wish Microsoft would have a similiar clause), but I do think the tone of how it is conveyed is just wrong and rude. It could have been worded more diplomatic/neutral.
    09-05-2014 04:32 AM
  7. Skamath's Avatar
    I for one am excited because of the overwhelming passion this developer has. As far as how good the game will be? Time will tell, but such a passionate dev definitely deserves at least a chance to prove to us he is good at what he loves!
    Ay Capt...Er Ambassador! If one word to describe what the Bee is Buzzing about, It is Ethics.

    Anybody saying otherwise needs to visit Davy Jones's Locker
    09-05-2014 05:04 AM
  8. HaibaneReki's Avatar
    I applause BeeMon for their rock solid and calm arguments against all spiteful remarks and can't wait to see another major player in the WP Store.
    TechFreak1 likes this.
    09-05-2014 07:56 AM
  9. Phone Guy 4567's Avatar
    You are free to have whatever your opinions you want but we only care to address opinions that are based on facts not presumptions. However I would like to point out the fallacy of some of those opinions in case some other readers (which in my opinion includes you) did not read my entire post and replies but simply skim through them to cherry-pick a few points for your arguments.

    First of all, Windows Phone was never a Plan B, it was part of the master plan. Plan B is when one plan fails, you need a backup. We clearly indicated that we would support both platforms which is one of the reasons behind choosing C# through Xamarin, so that it will be easier and faster to port over to Windows Phone. iOS was just chosen to be the initial platform. While we like C#, the new Swift language is pretty neat, so why fore would we consider paying a not-too-cheap Xamarin license if we had no intention to support WP in the first place.

    Secondly, we did not attempt to paint a pretty picture of WP with our post to get favors. In fact, on the contrary, we actually described a very bleak picture of WP at the beginning of the year in our post when we made our initial decision. When we decided to create the thread in the first place, we were ready to get a huge backlash from WP owners angry that we would choose to go iOS first and not the platform that we actually love.

    Thirdly, if you have actually read our post carefully, you can see clearly that we have not started substantial coding yet. What resources that we have implemented so far (graphics, music, animations) can be applied to any platform so we don't lose anything by switching. Also even if we had done some code, since we have chosen C#, it's not a big issue to switch. Now if we had already make a big "monetary" investment on one platform, then definitely we would have to still bulldoze through it to recover our investment before leaving it. And if you had also read through a lot of our replies, we have indicated a few times that if Apple was to revert or to specifically clarify exact requirements, we would reconsider our stand. Againt prove that we weren't painting a pretty picture of the WP situation.

    Finally, even though as the developer of a software that got a 8/10 review from a major site and could have gotten more except that we only supported English, we are not insulted by your assumption that we were afraid of being rejected because we knew our game/apps were not of "quality". However IMHO, you just insulted your own community by suggesting that WP users would accept crappy software rejected by Apple. Whether our software is of good quality can only be easily ascertained at the time of release. We cannot address it now but we emplore you so stay around and do not delete your comment. At the time that we offical release our software, I would like to come back to revisit your comment so that we can work together to compare our software with what is available on the Apple AppStore and I would appreciate your evaluation at the time.

    We hope in the future if you have any opinions on any of our posts, that you first read our posts and replies entirely. You are free not to but the time that we have to take to address your straw man opinions could have been better spent on designing and making "quality" games/apps for your platform.
    I reread your post and I do apologize for missing the part that said you were about getting ready to buy Apple equipment. You do however mention at the beginning of one of your paragraphs :

    "We collectively decided that the 1st platform for our games and apps would be iOS."

    So iOS was your first choice and because of changes Apple made to their policies you've decided to switch your focus to WP, IMO a plan B. I don't think I said or even implied that WP would never be on the table to develop for if Apple didn't change their policy, my point is that iOS was your 1st choice until the policy change.

    I don't think I insulted the WP community, because I believe many in the community are just as tired of the number of garbage apps in the store. They probably wish like I do that MS had a similar arrogant attitude when it comes to their store that Apple has.

    If you really want to be a success as a developer then IMO you should have stuck to your original iOS first plan. At the end of the day sales and money are what will allow you to continue to develop for all platforms.
    09-05-2014 12:45 PM
  10. Nerdy Woman's Avatar
    I don't think I insulted the WP community, because I believe many in the community are just as tired of the number of garbage apps in the store. They probably wish like I do that MS had a similar arrogant attitude when it comes to their store that Apple has.
    You don't think there's any garbage among the million+ apps in the Apple store? I seriously doubt that every app in their store is worth a d/l. I had previously mentioned an app that uses the haptic feature (aka vibration) for personal pleasuring, but according to some reviews, lacks the strength to get the job done. LMAO

    Doing the math... Let's say they have 200 categories/sub-categories. That would mean there are, on average, 5,000 apps in each category. Of course, some categories will have more, some will have less. The point is, devs can make promotion a full-time job - coercing blogs and sites to go hands-on and review, generating social media buzz, striving to get more downloads and ratings - just to get into the top 1,000 in a category.

    Quite possibly, devs may find it easier to become big fish in a smaller pond.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-05-2014 02:38 PM
  11. tgp's Avatar
    Quite possibly, devs may find it easier to become big fish in a smaller pond.
    That right there is probably the biggest advantage of developing for WP right now. The other 2 have such massive app stores that it's difficult to get noticed anymore, or so I've heard (I'm not a developer). The downside to relying on WP is of course its market share.
    Nerdy Woman likes this.
    09-05-2014 03:30 PM
  12. Bee Mon's Avatar
    I reread your post and I do apologize for missing the part that said you were about getting ready to buy Apple equipment. You do however mention at the beginning of one of your paragraphs :

    "We collectively decided that the 1st platform for our games and apps would be iOS."

    So iOS was your first choice and because of changes Apple made to their policies you've decided to switch your focus to WP, IMO a plan B. I don't think I said or even implied that WP would never be on the table to develop for if Apple didn't change their policy, my point is that iOS was your 1st choice until the policy change.

    I don't think I insulted the WP community, because I believe many in the community are just as tired of the number of garbage apps in the store. They probably wish like I do that MS had a similar arrogant attitude when it comes to their store that Apple has.

    If you really want to be a success as a developer then IMO you should have stuck to your original iOS first plan. At the end of the day sales and money are what will allow you to continue to develop for all platforms.

    "Plan B - a strategy or plan to be implemented if the original one proves impracticable or unsuccessful."

    Our decision to change in neither based on the above so your usage of the definition is wrong. You cannot change the definition to match your argument. Plan A is for us to return back to mobile game development. Our Plan B is to drop game development and continue with our current core business. Plan B comes into effect only if we failed to gain any foothold in the mobile software market within a specific duration of time we determined in Plan A. Re-prioritizing the platforms that we choose to develop does not affect the outcome of our original plan; which is to get our games/apps into the market and determine the response over a period of time.

    If you have read all our replies, you would have seen that we have never disagreed that garbage apps should be culled. We are just replying to your insinuations that 1) Windows Phone was a Plan B, 2) Our software is crappy, 3) We were lying, all based on your own presumptions on our original post without any facts. I have never mentioned anything about garbage apps in our original post because it was not about garbage apps. We did not choose to drop iOS because of garbage apps, we chose because Apple has now put in vague clauses into their policy that allows them to discredit any app they wish from they store without consequences based on their personal feeling about your app, not that your app has broken any of their regulations. To us having the power to move the goalpost, like changing the definition of a vague clause, at anytime to suite themselves is draconian in nature which is what we are pissed about. Nothing to do with garbage apps. And if you don't think Apple is going to abuse this power at some time in the future, I applaud your optimism. However we have our own opinion that Apple is not doing this only for garbage apps. Sorry but we are in the business world, not la-la-land, we have to be very careful on signing legal contracts and agreements. We would never sign any agreement that has vague terminology and lopsided. We are not desperate and we don't have to so we decided not to. Like we said in a few of our replies, if they provide a clear list of criteria in their policy, we would have no issues.
    Last edited by Bee Mon; 09-05-2014 at 06:21 PM. Reason: False negative
    Nerdy Woman likes this.
    09-05-2014 04:41 PM
  13. Ashalinia's Avatar
    You don't think there's any garbage among the million+ apps in the Apple store? I seriously doubt that every app in their store is worth a d/l. I had previously mentioned an app that uses the haptic feature (aka vibration) for personal pleasuring, but according to some reviews, lacks the strength to get the job done. LMAO
    I'd beta test that. Jk.
    Nerdy Woman likes this.
    09-05-2014 04:47 PM
  14. tgp's Avatar
    You don't think there's any garbage among the million+ apps in the Apple store? I seriously doubt that every app in their store is worth a d/l.
    I have a bit of experience with iOS, quite a bit with WP, and the most with Android. I would rate the quality of apps, taking into consideration both how good the "good" apps are and the ratio of "garbage" apps in this order:

    1. iOS
    2. Android
    3. Windows Phone

    I know that at least part of the reason WP apps are generally lower quality, or maybe I should say have less features, is not the developers' fault, but because of OS restrictions. Let's see if this changes with WP8.1 being more open.
    09-05-2014 05:15 PM
  15. Bee Mon's Avatar
    Since the discussion seems to be have spilled into the realm of garbage apps, here's our point of view. First of all, different users have different views on what they consider as a garbage app. For example, one user may describe a garbage app as "It does not look pretty on my pretty device" but does not mention about its functionality. Another user may complain "This app is garbage, it keeps crashing on my device." even though it may work pretty well on other devices. What your definition of a garbage app may be different from others, so you cannot use your definition of garbage app as a collective term to represent all the users because not all users think in the same way. So its a fallacy to say "I speak for everyone". No you don't.

    I don't speak for everyone, but this is my definition of a garbage app. To me a garbage app is devoid of any useful functionality, narrative, or gameplay. An app that mislead users into thinking that it's the original or a native app, click-bait apps, a web wrapper that does not add any additional functionality to the original web site, ad apps that does not give any return value back to the user to me are garbage apps. I don't see why Apple with an entire legal team, couldn't come up with a simple of list of requirements of their own.

    Some people also think Vizioneck is garbage and shouldn't be on a next-gen console. Sony doesn't seem to think so. Every person is biased in some way, allowing them to make personal judgement instead of relying on a pre-determined set of guidelines, is wrong in every way and shouldn't be part of a professional organization. Thank goodness Minecraft was developed for the desktop computer system years ago. I can imagine some people in an organization may have viewed the submission of his first alpha-version of Minecraft today to a particular mobile platform as "amateur hour".
    Laura Knotek and TechFreak1 like this.
    09-05-2014 06:06 PM
  16. Bee Mon's Avatar
    I have a bit of experience with iOS, quite a bit with WP, and the most with Android. I would rate the quality of apps, taking into consideration both how good the "good" apps are and the ratio of "garbage" apps in this order:

    1. iOS
    2. Android
    3. Windows Phone

    I know that at least part of the reason WP apps are generally lower quality, or maybe I should say have less features, is not the developers' fault, but because of OS restrictions. Let's see if this changes with WP8.1 being more open.
    To me an app having less features or is not as pretty as a counterpart can hardly be called a garbage app. In time, with more income the developer can afford to spend time to add those features and polish up the UI. It would be horrible to reject an app based on those criteria without looking at its potential. I haven't examined Rudy's entire portfolio but I bet his first apps when he released them don't look that great either. New developers need time to get themselves familiarize with a platform and they will get better over time as long as they can survive. Rejecting apps only based on their look or missing features is a sure way of shooing away potentially good developers from your platform.
    Laura Knotek and tgp like this.
    09-05-2014 07:01 PM
  17. Nerdy Woman's Avatar
    To me an app having less features or is not as pretty as a counterpart can hardly be called a garbage app. In time, with more income the developer can afford to spend time to add those features and polish up the UI. It would be horrible to reject an app based on those criteria without looking at its potential. I haven't examined Rudy's entire portfolio but I bet his first apps when he released them don't look that great either. New developers need time to get themselves familiarize with a platform and they will get better over time as long as they can survive. Rejecting apps only based on their look or missing features is a sure way of shooing away potentially good developers from your platform.
    Reading your post, Bee Mon, the best example that comes to mind is not an app, but the Surface tablet/laptop. When they introduced Surface 2, Panos Panay commented that many improvements made were due to user feedback. The first generation Surface was built in a very secure vault with zero user feedback or test marketing. The only way to give consumers what they really want is to have the opportunity to ask them.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-05-2014 07:19 PM
  18. Bee Mon's Avatar
    Reading your post, Bee Mon, the best example that comes to mind is not an app, but the Surface tablet/laptop. When they introduced Surface 2, Panos Panay commented that many improvements made were due to user feedback. The first generation Surface was built in a very secure vault with zero user feedback or test marketing. The only way to give consumers what they really want is to have the opportunity to ask them.
    Some people just don't get it that a lot of successes are built on past failures. No one has ever come up with a perfect product on their first try but the potential is still there. People sees the potential and invest in it regardless of its current shortcomings. I have invested in many Kickstarter projects; some failed and some were successful. I don't feel cheated or wasting my money just because some of them failed because one successful project can easily be worth more than ten times the failures. Rudy Huyn was not born yesterday, Android at one time also did not have any apps, and Rovio had so many games that were not successful they were about to close shop if their last gasp effort called Angry Birds did not make any headway. At one time or another in the past, one of their apps could have been called by some people as "garbage". Thanks goodness these people are far in between in real-life even though they tend to be the most vocal on the Internet or otherwise we would still be living in caves rubbing two sticks together. Sometimes organizations get too rich and big they forgot where they came from i.e. two guys in a garage. When they climb up too high into the sky, they tend to forgot those little guys who's holding up their ladder.
    09-05-2014 09:16 PM
  19. Tips_y's Avatar
    My credit card is ready... bring it on!
    By the way, I don't really play games in my phone (1520) but I'll make an exception of this.
    09-06-2014 09:27 AM
  20. Troy Marcel's Avatar
    yeah Don totally screwed the pooch, he pretty much destroyed any faith many people had towards the xbox one.
    09-06-2014 09:49 AM
  21. WinG33k's Avatar
    Before I talk about the reason of this thread, let me explain the context of our perspective. I hope you can bear with me for a while. I am part of a small company, consists only of a few people, who's current line of business is mostly in tech training rather than software development. It's not that we are not capable, but the last time we tried, we didn't do well financially and its not because our software was crap. You can see from the following link, we did get a very good review on one of our games for the Palm OS, but the review only came when we made it free. We basically only sold 10 units of the game in the first six months.

    We finally decided to give it another try at the beginning of this year. We planned initially to port our old Palm games because we know they are good and we also have a number of new game and app ideas that we are very excited about. The only question was which platform? We are very familiar with Windows and Visual Studio and we all love Windows Phone. We also love Palm too in its day but the market couldn't sustain us financially and it is not our best interest to walk again on that same road praying this time will be different. Everyone knows Windows Phone market is still small and it wasn't growing much at the beginning of the year and I'm sure we know why that is so I do not wish to delve into that subject here. As "indie" developers we have no other financial backing except ourselves so its imperative that we choose a market that we think we can survive longer in until we receive some publicity and good reviews from well-known journalists. Once we have some sort of financial stability, we will port our games and apps to Windows Phone.

    We collectively decided that the 1st platform for our games and apps would be iOS. Why not Android? Well we like to tell you its because of technical issues and the amount of software hacking and piracy on Android (which is true), but really let us be honest here; we bloody hate Google and its practices. Now please do not question our right to our own opinions in this thread. We are not using this thread to attempt to convert people to WP, if you love Android and Google, we wish you the best on your chosen platform.

    However to program for iOS means that we had to use Objective-C, which to us is a horrendous programming language but thank goodness for Xamarin, we can leverage our C# programming skills and continue to use Visual Studio as our development environment. It would also make it easier to port our apps over to WP (or maybe even Android) at a later time. Our plans are finalized and in the past few months we have been saving funds to purchase Macs and iPhone/iPad for development and testing. Then we'll sign up for a Apple Store account and start work.

    Everything was moving sweetly according to plans and we were ready to begin this month of September. We plan to go out this weekend to make all the purchases we need so we can start learning / developing beginning of next week. However something happened this morning. We received a tweet through twitter from some developers that we follow. It seems that Apple has updated their app submission or review policy. We only then realized that we actually had never read up on that yet! We were planning to do it once we've signed up to Apple Store and anyway how much different could it be between Apple Store and Windows / Windows Phone Store? Well we read it and we marked two areas that we have issues with.

    Attachment 79502

    It may only be us, but the tone is incredibly rude, arrogant and flippant. 'We have a lot of "serious developers" that do not want their "quality Apps" to be surrounded by "amateur hour." While we are sure that we can create a polish product, every programmer was once a newbie, who stumbled, struggled and scratched their head through many months, days and hours to learn how to program, not because they want to earn money, but its the excitement of being able to creating something of their own. Now you're being told if you're not good enough, don't bother. Go away. 'If you run to the press to trash us, it never helps'. If you think we're not right, we don't care. Cry all you like. Complain to the press, see if we care.

    "So here's a big F to you Apple. Have a nice day."

    So... we have scrapped our original plans. We're coming home to Windows. We're going to port our Codex game only to Windows Phone, and we'll be happy even if we sell only enough units to barely survive (and even maybe, a little tiny maybe in the future to Android later cause now we're not as angry at Google as another corporation). We will publish development journals and open-source all our libraries and tools that we develop for our games and apps to help others do the same because we don't mind our "quality apps" being surrounded by "amateur hour".
    Thanks for listening and I hope you can enjoy our games soon.
    Hello Bee Mon! It's great to see another passionate developer joining the Windows gang. I really look forward to trying out your apps on the Windows / Windows Phone Store. My apologies for joining late to this discussion.

    It really seems like an interesting discussion going on here. And I've spent most of the past hour reading through the entire thread of comments. It feels good to see a developer preferring the Windows Phone Store over Apple's App Store for publishing their apps. But I would like to share a few thoughts regarding your decision to ditch the App Store. Please consider my opinions with an open mind.

    I understand you mostly made the decision to switch to WP after the App Store policy changes, particularly highlighting two of them which appear to be arrogant. You also mentioned that Apple does not provide any quality guidelines for devs to follow, and by doing so Apple is taking the control away from them. You are concerned whether all your hard work is going to get rejected based on Apple's seemingly vague policies, which is a valid concern.

    But let's look at these policies from a new angle - probably the angle Apple intented. The first highligted point states:
    "If your App looks like it was cobbled together in a few days, or you're trying to get your first practice App into the store to impress your friends, please brace yourself for rejection. We have lots of serious developers who don't want their quality Apps to be surrounded by amateur hour."

    If you read it carefully, you'll realize that this point is intended for certain developers alone. The ones who want to create and publish apps just for fun, the ones who don't take app development quite seriously. These people create apps just to show off and "impress your (their) friends" as Apple puts it. These type of developers deserve to be treated like that. If you are a serious developer, this point is not at all intended towards you, and you shouldn't feel offended by it.

    The second one says:
    "If your App is rejected, we have a Review Board that you can appeal to. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps."

    Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with this. Apple wants to resolve possible conflicts with developers in the best way suitable for them - avoiding a [possibly false] negative image within the media.

    As for clear App Development guidelines, Apple in fact has detailed guidelines for designing and developing iOS apps. I wish I could provide you the links, but I don't have enough privilege to post links in this forum yet. A web search will surely help you find out though. Try using keywords like "iOS app development guidelines" or "iOS app design guidelines". The "iOS Human Interface Guidelines" page is particularly useful.

    I'm quite sure that if you follow these guidelines strictly, Apple won't reject your apps. If it did reject them though, you could at least take the issue to the Review Board with knowledge that you fully complied with the app development guidelines. Now, I'm in no way implying you to reconsider your development plans I just wanted to share my impartial views regarding the topic. I hope you will like what I had to say.

    Last but not the least, I give you my best wishes for a successful app development career.
    09-08-2014 01:44 PM
  22. WDavis4692's Avatar
    To all of those readers who keep saying that Apple's store success is in part due to their stringent app guidelines, one thing you're overlooking is the extremely arrogant and snarky way the guidelines are worded. There is no reason why apple could not lay down the same guidelines in a much more diplomatic manner and obtain the same level of understanding and result.

    It's just rudeness for the sake of being rude. Apple is growing too big for its britches.
    09-08-2014 08:10 PM
  23. TechFreak1's Avatar
    To all of those readers who keep saying that Apple's store success is in part due to their stringent app guidelines, one thing you're overlooking is the extremely arrogant and snarky way the guidelines are worded. There is no reason why apple could not lay down the same guidelines in a much more diplomatic manner and obtain the same level of understanding and result.

    It's just rudeness for the sake of being rude. Apple is growing too big for its britches.
    Taller the tree, the greater the impact when it falls.
    09-10-2014 07:18 PM
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