05-15-2017 10:31 PM
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  1. MrElectrifyer's Avatar
    So, Microsoft released the Surface Laptop today, and from the looks of it, it's looking like the first overpriced and already outdated device with a Surface brand attached to it.

    - No USB Type C port in 2017.

    - Touch screen is a gimmick as it can't be converted to a Tablet form-factor to make practical use of it.

    - Restricted to the Windows Store unless you buy Windows 10 Pro. Almost like Windows RT all over again.

    - No storage expansion port, something even the slimmer Surface Pro 3/4 and Surface RT/2/3 had, a MicroSD card slot.

    - Only 1 front-facing webcam and it's downgraded to 720p

    - Doesn't make sense for students compared to the Surface Pro line, despite it trying to target them, especially with it lacking the ability to transform into a notepad and replace ALL of a students need for paper/notebooks/textbooks (that's what my Surface Pro 2 has long done).

    Despite it lacking all of the above and being 1/3rd as versatile as the Surface Pro (Mono Laptop vs Tablet+Digitizer Drawing Board+Laptop), its starting price is exactly the same as the Surface Pro. What exactly is there to justify the price tag of this over the Surface Pro 4, which is even cheaper now? Or do you agree it's just outright overpriced compared to the competition?
    05-02-2017 11:32 PM
  2. Drael646464's Avatar
    According to the presentation, its very light, has the worlds thinnest laptop touch screen matrix, has a lovely screen, is seemless. All design features, but some people go for those, even over the highest specs (cough apple)

    The ram and ssd are for the first time every, intergrated, not slots, which according to them improves battery life.

    It is lighter, better looking, and faster and has better battery than its obvious direct competition (they claim 14.5 hours or some such), the MacBook (according to the talk).

    They also claimed you could leave it suspended over a holiday break and the battery level would be exactly the same when you came back.

    It's probably not more expensive than a MacBook.

    Windows S, is according to them, not simply an exact copy of windows 10 but without external apps - according to them, its faster to turn on, log in, and access apps, and also easier to deploy and manage. For some reason this has received little testing or attention from article writers as yet....kind weird.

    There is no padding around the screen, because the screen cushions on the fabric surrounding the keyboard.

    Kind of seemed like a feat of engineering to me. The high end specs are no slop. You could spend as much on an iPhone 8 (which starts at 1000). There are some discounts for students running around too.

    I admit the laptop FF makes touch less useful, but it can still be made use of its just not as useful. Would have been nice if they made it 360, but I guess that isn't actually the market - rather traditional notebook users are.

    Personally I think every surface product in existence is overpriced, as is every major phone flagship and every damned thing apple has ever made. There's a great deal they spend on advertising.

    But some people pay for things like 'premium feel', whatever that is, and this product seems to have it. Certainly one should expect this device to last a very long time.

    I got serious lust after the presentation, and I don't even bat for that team. You could certainly argue a surface pro is better, for whatever application, or price wise. And proper use of the stylus on either book or pro could be handy.

    Still this is a sexy machine, and I think people will buy it. People don't buy iphones or macbooks for their port selection, or practical capabilities. They buy it for pride. for the design detail and attention, the way it looks and lasts.

    I think that's some of what inspires MS design these days, with the HoloLens, surface range, is not just technical innovation, but trying to capture some of that technical beauty. The ooh, wow.

    No wonder, I mean, that was essentially Samsung and apples story of success. There have always been similar products to those, they just didn't attempt or command as much "wow how thin" or gee, look at that single metal shell etc.

    There's always plenty of other hybrids and notebooks to choose from, most of are great choices. I usually try to spend about half of what Samsung, apple and MS cost, and shop around of high spec'd midtier devices.

    Although if one had the cash to splash, I'm sure one would be pretty happy with it, despite the lack of usb-c.

    If you want wired peripherals, probably something less thin/light would suit one anyway, because then you could have a nice stack of ports.

    I mean, you either like it or you don't. Or you think its worth the price, or you don't. I'd probably buy gaming laptop like one of razors beauties if I were to spend wads on a laptop.

    It's pretty clear this is targeted at uni students, and MacBook fans. If you've never had a discussion about "how well designed" or "good looking" some technology is, like me, you probably don't really care enough to be in the target market :P
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-03-2017 at 02:56 AM.
    05-03-2017 02:15 AM
  3. kwright62's Avatar
    Double the price of the most expensive Chromebook i can find.
    05-03-2017 03:40 AM
  4. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    My brother took one look at this and said it's a waste of money

    I can probably get an i7 laptop, 17inch, with 1TB hard drive, 16GB RAM and graphics card for less than 900USD and this costs 1000? Good bye
    MrElectrifyer likes this.
    05-03-2017 04:24 AM
  5. Drael646464's Avatar
    My brother took one look at this and said it's a waste of money

    I can probably get an i7 laptop, 17inch, with 1TB hard drive, 16GB RAM and graphics card for less than 900USD and this costs 1000? Good bye
    But isn't that true of every surface device ever released? And certainly every apple device?

    I can't think of one you can't get something nearly as good spec wise for half the price, or something just as good spec wise for 3/4 of the price. Not that specs tell the whole story (in fact they rarely do, just look at cameras). But the point being, these devices have always been very highly priced.

    I have ALWAYS looked at them and gone, holy moly, I could just get xyz instead.

    But people buy things like the s8, iPhone, MacBook and surface line in droves. Not saying that's smart,or dumb but it is what it is. The thing I always hear such people saying is "amazing build quality" and 'premium feel' and "I prefer the most premium design".

    Same people who buy prada and so on probably.

    But to be fair, look at this next to the price of a surface book or the damned surface studio. I mean ouch.
    FAVIOLOSKY and libra89 like this.
    05-03-2017 04:45 AM
  6. matt john2's Avatar
    This is disappointing and quite an embarrassment for the Surface brand. I always have high respect for Surface tablets, in fact we have three Surface 3 in my family. But this is just wrong, they went full 360 from innovating the Hybrids to directly competing with the Macbook Air by crippling the overall usability performance only to have a fashionable device.

    And still don't understand why they didn't put USB C instead ,the dodgy DisplayPort in all of our Surface 3 are broken and we barely even used it.

    The high price tag of this device and the current state of Windows Apps quality doesn't make sense to me. No, thank you, Microsoft but Chromebooks makes more sense
    05-03-2017 05:02 AM
  7. Drael646464's Avatar
    This is disappointing and quite an embarrassment for the Surface brand. I always have high respect for Surface tablets, in fact we have three Surface 3 in my family. But this is just wrong, they went full 360 from innovating the Hybrids to directly competing with the Macbook Air by crippling the overall usability performance only to have a fashionable device.

    And still don't understand why they didn't put USB C instead ,the dodgy DisplayPort in all of our Surface 3 are broken and we barely even used it.

    The high price tag of this device and the current state of Windows Apps quality doesn't make sense to me. No, thank you, Microsoft but Chromebooks makes more sense
    So you'll only buy a windows tablet or notebook from MS? And if they don't give you what you want, you'll buy a chromebook?

    ?

    I'm sure there's a lot more options than that, for you, as a consumer.
    05-03-2017 05:26 AM
  8. mtiede's Avatar
    I fail to see why someone would want this instead of a Surface Pro 4. Pro can be either a tablet or a laptop so why would I want something that can be only a laptop?
    05-03-2017 05:43 AM
  9. Tsang Fai's Avatar
    seems that most of the complaints come from Surface fans... which is understandable.

    The target of Surface Laptop is obviously the more general users, who just do not need a 2-in-1/convertible. They just need a good looking, thin and light laptop, which is not as expensive as MacBook.

    I don't see any problem of a more traditional Surface device, yet with appealing quality. That's exactly the biggest market indeed.

    Let's try to evaluate this device from the perspective of a normal user:

    • non-detachable keyboard - fine. The device is light enough, why do I want to detach the kb?
    • No kickstand for better writing - fine... I am not going to use the Surface Pen, anyway
    • I get more battery life
    • Even more premium look than SP4, especially the keyboard
    • even lighter than the newest MacbookPro 13"
    • price is very reasonable. way cheaper than macbook. and even SP4 of same spec needs the same price (you need to buy a typecover for SP4)
    • Currently I can hardly find a cheaper laptp with comparable spec from other OEMs...
    • The design is gorgeous. I really don't mind it is just a traditional laptop. It's iconic.
    05-03-2017 06:26 AM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    seems that most of the complaints come from Surface fans... which is understandable.

    The target of Surface Laptop is obviously the more general users, who just do not need a 2-in-1/convertible. They just need a good looking, thin and light laptop, which is not as expensive as MacBook.

    I don't see any problem of a more traditional Surface device, yet with appealing quality. That's exactly the biggest market indeed.
    Precisely. Notebook is the biggest growth segment for PCs. There are two obvious areas to grow in for MS, commercially - notebooks, and tablets (including 2 in 1s). They are not exclusive. Windows has two competitors with notebooks macbooks and chromebooks. They tackled both. A premium style notebook is 100% commercially warranted and a smart move.
    05-03-2017 06:33 AM
  11. matt john2's Avatar
    So you'll only buy a windows tablet or notebook from MS? And if they don't give you what you want, you'll buy a chromebook?

    ?

    I'm sure there's a lot more options than that, for you, as a consumer.
    No and no, First, the Surface 3 was the only one of it's kind at the time that is inexpensive, lightweight and very portable. Second, if I we're to get a Surface Laptop because of the lightweight Windows 10 S and Apps I would rather buy a Chromebook instead because what's the point of spending that much to run lightweight apps. I mean sure you can switch to full Windows 10 but that doesn't mean you didn't pay for the Windows 10 S license. And again, isn't the whole point of this Surface Laptop with "Windows 10 S" is to directly compete with ChromeOS with it's Apps and Softwares and let's be honest Android Apps are far far superior than the (mostly abandoned) Windows Apps.
    05-03-2017 06:38 AM
  12. Drael646464's Avatar
    No and no, First, the Surface 3 was the only one of it's kind at the time that is inexpensive, lightweight and very portable. Second, if I we're to get a Surface Laptop because of the lightweight Windows 10 S and Apps I would rather buy a Chromebook instead because what's the point of spending that much to run lightweight apps. I mean sure you can switch to full Windows 10 but that doesn't mean you didn't pay for the Windows 10 S license. And again, isn't the whole point of this Surface Laptop with "Windows 10 S" is to directly compete with ChromeOS with it's Apps and Softwares and let's be honest Android Apps are far far superior than the (mostly abandoned) Windows Apps.
    Wait, there's a windows s license fee? Where did you hear this?

    The point of the surface laptop I believe is more to compete with the MacBook based on premium design, asthetics, battery lightness. That was the demo comparison. If you want to run external apps, the upgrade/sidegrade is free till the end of the year.

    But keep in mind, windows S is supposed to run faster than windows pro, according to MS (literally no-one I know of, is trying to benchmark this, for god knows what reason)

    With windows s, yes the chromebook. Hence they they have tried to match login, app loading times. BTW, please find me a fully featured video editing suite on android, if your going to claim windows apps (including win32) are on par with anemicaly underfunded freemium android apps. An art app? Music? Office 365 (announced coming to the store)? MS teams? Indeed just glance at the current education selection of the windows app store, look at the announcement, and tell me it runs short somehow?

    Windows is not weak in this area. PC has been dominating creator software for decades, and running schools across the globe with total dominance.

    Even if the UWP is young, it still totally "represents" right here, right now in creator software and education, especially when you factor office and teams
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-03-2017 at 07:03 AM.
    Captain_Eric and Tsang Fai like this.
    05-03-2017 06:48 AM
  13. MrElectrifyer's Avatar
    "People don't buy iphones or macbooks for their port selection, or practical capabilities. They buy it for pride. for the design detail and attention, the way it looks and lasts.

    I think that's some of what inspires MS design these days"

    Actually, I bought my Surface Pro 2 'cause it's versatile (it's my Tablet, Digitizer Drawing Board, Notepad, Logbook, Laptop, and Desktop), a great design that's not only premium looking but also very functional, and it's a great bang for buck compared to the competition.

    It's been pretty easy to objectively justify the price tag of Surface devices (excluding early RT devices) compared to the competition, but that all changes with this one. It's more like an overpriced joke like them MacBooks now; merely for looks, barely for functionality.
    MDBulldog likes this.
    05-03-2017 06:52 AM
  14. Drael646464's Avatar
    "People don't buy iphones or macbooks for their port selection, or practical capabilities. They buy it for pride. for the design detail and attention, the way it looks and lasts.

    I think that's some of what inspires MS design these days"

    Actually, I bought my Surface Pro 2 'cause it's versatile (it's my Tablet, Digitizer Drawing Board, Notepad, Logbook, Laptop, and Desktop), a great design that's not only premium looking but also very functional, and it's a great bang for buck compared to the competition.

    It's been pretty easy to objectively justify the price tag of Surface devices (excluding early RT devices) compared to the competition, but that all changes with this one. It's more like an overpriced joke like them MacBooks now; merely for looks, barely for functionality.
    Well an understandable and relatable criticism. Obviously, not for you. But if design and OS slimness isn't your bag alone, I doubt its the last MS innovation we'll see.

    Should be another surface pro this year I reckon, and some kinda interesting windows on arm device. Build is coming after all, late this year redstone 3 and WoA: this year is guaranteed not to be a yawner IMO.
    Captain_Eric likes this.
    05-03-2017 07:07 AM
  15. matt john2's Avatar
    Wait, there's a windows s license fee? Where did you hear this?

    The point of the surface laptop I believe is more to compete with the MacBook based on premium design, asthetics, battery lightness. That was the demo comparison. If you want to run external apps, the upgrade/sidegrade is free till the end of the year.

    But keep in mind, windows S is supposed to run faster than windows pro, according to MS (literally no-one I know of, is trying to benchmark this, for god knows what reason)

    With windows s, yes the chromebook. Hence they they have tried to match login, app loading times. BTW, please find me a fully featured video editing suite on android, if your going to claim windows apps (including win32) are on par with anemicaly underfunded freemium android apps. An art app? Music? Office 365 (announced coming to the store)? MS teams? Indeed just glance at the current education selection of the windows app store, look at the announcement, and tell me it runs short somehow?

    Windows is not weak in this area. PC has been dominating creator software for decades, and running schools across the globe with total dominance.

    Even if the UWP is young, it still totally "represents" right here, right now in creator software and education, especially when you factor office and teams
    I'm not sure if your arguments are trying to point something noteworthy or you're just here because you feel like you have to. Of course win32 are different and why are we even arguing about win32, this is about Surface Laptop running Windows 10 S - a competing OS to ChromeOS.
    05-03-2017 07:23 AM
  16. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'm not sure if your arguments are trying to point something noteworthy or you're just here because you feel like you have to. Of course win32 are different and why are we even arguing about win32, this is about Surface Laptop running Windows 10 S - a competing OS to ChromeOS.
    Ditto??

    Oh I have to be here. They are watching me.

    The surface laptop is clearly not just competing with chromebook, its clearly taking on the MacBook with its design spec. I dunno how peeps would miss that, but there it is, if you did.

    Comparisons will be drawn, but its not entirely like any of them. The points of difference, were what I was drawing attention to.

    If you feel so inclined, respond to the points I made.

    The app gap is not so present with education and creation tasks. In fact much the opposite, because windows store has some powerful centennial apps, and more apps definitely coming (like full office and ms teams for education). You can compare quantity with quantity - fine, but you also should IMO compare quality/power with quality/power. Android apps do not compare with windows PC apps, they are puddle deep compared.

    Go have a gander in the "powerful PC apps" and "education" sections in the store. Add in office 365, art apps, and the new education focused MS teams, and if you will it, tell me chromeOS has a comparable offering in terms of education? You wont find a comparable art app. You won't find a comparable video editing suite. You won't find anything quite like teams, or quite as good as office 365. I'm knee deep in android, so if I am missing something let me know!

    The offering here is strong IMO.

    Sure the game is young. The offerings are still wildly piffling compared to full windows TBH. Literally still yet drips and drabs of that full desktop power.

    But this is not an area where MS is lacking in comparison, store for store, considering the proposition. If anything it comes out on top IMO. Perhaps not by as far as windows should, but give it time....its not like chromeOS is going to grow wings and become a power software platform is it? I don't think anyone is honestly betting on that! :P

    Personally to show off those beauties, i'd be using a 360 flip design from a partner OEM, rather than a notebook from MS. Bring in the ink! Something with real stylus support. Then it would shine by comparison. Cheaper too.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-03-2017 at 08:06 AM.
    05-03-2017 07:31 AM
  17. mtf1380's Avatar
    Obviously the Surface Notebook is designed to fill a slot in the Surface Lineup (speaking of slots, the two - one on each side - looks to be for expandability?), it's not for me (I have a Surface Pro and Book), but I am sure that a basic notebook (albeit, high end/priced for the brand/status conscious) is the right tool for a lot of people.

    I know I will jump on a Surface Phone if/when available:)
    05-03-2017 09:41 AM
  18. anthonyng's Avatar
    My brother took one look at this and said it's a waste of money

    I can probably get an i7 laptop, 17inch, with 1TB hard drive, 16GB RAM and graphics card for less than 900USD and this costs 1000? Good bye
    Um you never compare laptops for just pure performance spec. Infact for like over decade now, I've bought based on designed need.... First was a massive 15" dell inspiron. I travel a lot for work so I learned that lesson pretty quick, after was a Toshiba Portege m200, then a thinkpad x200t, then thinkpad helix which drove me nuts for a year then I went surface pro3. I generally bought the higher spec'd ones but in each of those cases, I could've had a way more powerful machine for the same money, but way bigger and heavier.

    I won't buy a surface laptop though, I don't think I can go back from a surface pro 2-in form factor and I want a 12"
    05-03-2017 11:12 AM
  19. someoneinwa's Avatar
    Wow. Debbie Downer is here. First, all Surface devices are premium priced. Not one has ever been released without someone on Windows Central complaining it was overpriced and/or underspeced.

    To take your specific points: regarding touch, all Surface devices are touch. Touch on a laptop isn't new and a Surface without touch would be a very radical change. If a student wants a device for typing and note taking with a pen and wants a Surface there are already two options available. Panay clearly stated they've been asked to produce a traditional laptop, so they did after checking what kind of market there might be and how they could design something new and leave plenty of market share for the OEMs.

    Windows 10 S is nothing like Windows RT. That comment is just wrong.

    Dropping the SD card slot wasn't a surprise but the rear camera was. I doubt many folks care if the front camera is only 720 (a resolution we hailed as HD a few years ago), but I am curious about the missing rear camera. I really don't want to see anymore people waving laptops or tablets around as cameras, but given the intentional marketing to college students, some of whom I suppose still like to record lectures, this was the only spec that surprised me.

    As for the wailing of the web today about yet another device without USB C: I say "meh." Yes, USB C is the future and much more convenient. I'm a fairly steady purchaser of tech devices. The only one I have with USB C right now is my Lumia 950XL. Panay had promised Surface customers that 4th gen devices would work with 3rd gen peripherals and vice versa. I guess they decided that promise was more important than needing to add a USB C. I know, "its 2017." Yeah and Amazon released a new high end Kindle that uses the most annoying USB: the Mini A port. When printers and cameras and stand alone drives and other commonly used peripherals start moving to USB C, then more computer manufacturers will do so.

    Also, I really like the mag safe connection used by Surface Connect. Apple got tons of grief recently for eliminating that feature on the new Macs.
    05-03-2017 12:32 PM
  20. butterscotchcrematorium's Avatar
    That's because it isn't supposed to be a Chromebook competitor in any way, shape, or form. It's very plainly supposed to be a direct competitor to the MacBook Air/Pro. There's a reason they used so many comparisons between the Surface Laptop and MacBooks and literally none to Chromebooks.
    jayk82 likes this.
    05-03-2017 03:01 PM
  21. FAVIOLOSKY's Avatar
    I agree with most people defending the Surface Laptop. I honestly don't understand how people can't grasp that this is not the same category as the Surface Pro or Book, thus should not compare it to the Book or Pro lines. This is a traditional clamshell device that gives you the feel and quality of the Surface line but like previously said, a more traditional laptop design. If you continue to compare to Surface Pro 2-in-1 then you don't get the point. Surface Pro already dominates their category, this was not meant to dethrone it. If someone doesnt want the detachable keyboard be it the book or the pro, then you would have to get say XPS13, which this device makes sense to compare to. Only concern would be USB-C. But there is not that much consumer push for it, and while most of us want it, the truth is, most users are not necessarily tech oriented enough to appreciate the change. they will be rather upset because they cant connect their usb mouse dongle, or usb-A external hard-drive. One thing people are forgetting is that this device also has Windows Hello Face Recog.
    MSStackFan likes this.
    05-03-2017 03:01 PM
  22. butterscotchcrematorium's Avatar
    I actually know a lot of people who don't like using Surface simply because they aren't laptops. They want to be able to actually use them on their laps more easily without getting a kickstand just right to have it get knocked out of place and fall over.

    I don't mind using my Surface on my lap, but I get why some people don't like it. People want a device that best suits how they will use it, and for many people a traditional laptop fills that need much better than a Surface tablet will.
    MSStackFan likes this.
    05-03-2017 03:05 PM
  23. kaktus1389's Avatar
    As it was already mentioned, I still think that Surface Laptop is a great looking device, it's light, touch enabled, compatible with Surface pen and I see that as key features that audience this is aimed at is looking for. I think it's priced so high so they would not make direct competition to OEMs. It's true though that if MS would offer Surface 4 running on arm chip, I'd rather go with it than the Surface Laptop, even if I am considering an option to buy the Surface Laptop anyway.

    If you compare performance of the Surface Laptop and any of the MacBooks, you'll find that Surface Laptop is much more performant and cheaper than Apple's products. I agree that it is by no means cheap, but you get desired quality and believe me, there are a lot of high school students in my country who actually buy MacBooks. My 2-in-1 once ran out of battery at the moment when I needed it the most so a friend borrowed me his MacBook for a few minutes, to finish the speech I was writing and I can say those were the worst minutes of my life behind a computer (not that it was slow, but the UI and the trackpad gave me some hard time). I would not expect that to be the case with Surface Laptop.
    libra89 likes this.
    05-03-2017 03:47 PM
  24. Yangstax's Avatar
    It seems that there are two fatal flaws with this design.

    - No back camera

    It is strange that when they demoed the View Mixed Reality on stage, they had to use SP4's camera while the new Surface Laptop doesn't have one. How do you expect students to experience the VMR? Besides, you do need back camera occasionally to take photos and to take backside pictures while use Skype.

    - No Tablet mode

    The demo videos show students all draw in the Tablet mode while laying flat. But the Surface Laptop can not be flipped into Tablet mode. It is uncomfortable to draw while the screen is in the upright position.

    I don't know what Panos' team are thinking. But I would certainly pass this device and wait for SP5 or check into other OEMs' offerings.
    Last edited by Yangstax; 05-03-2017 at 07:44 PM.
    MrElectrifyer likes this.
    05-03-2017 05:20 PM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    It seems that there are two fatal flaws with this design.

    - No back camera

    It is strange that when they demoed the View Mixed Reality on stage, they had to use SP4's camera while the new Surface Laptop doesn't have it. How do you expect students to experience the VMR? Besides, you do need back camera to take photos and to take backside pictures while use Skype.

    - No Tablet mode

    The demo videos show students all draw in the Tablet mode while laying flat. But the Surface Laptop can not be flipped into Tablet mode. It is uncomfortable to draw while the screen is in the upright position.

    I don't know what Panos' team are thinking. But I would certain pass this device and wait for SP5 or check into other OEMs' offerings.
    They'd be thinking that laptops are a growth market, and they are being fought for by two competitors, macbooks and chromebooks, and basically "this is Sparta!" bit of a throwdown and make a laptop. Personally I'd also rather have a detachable or 360 too. But laptops sell. There will surely be more in the surface line this year.
    Josiah23 likes this.
    05-03-2017 06:02 PM
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