If Market share has fallen, and MS say they want to stay..why are they doing it again???

[Greywolf1967]

This may come across as a slight rant, but it has a reason behind it. It's not just a "Well I'll take my ball and go home!" rant. It comes from concern, confusion, and a little frustration......and it is shared in whole or in part by more then a few.

So after reading what I can here, and also listening to Windows Weekly for some time, I am left with the feeling Microsoft is falling into it's old tricks mode again ( slowly this time in the hopes no one sees the pattern from the past). Now I have to ask myself, does Microsoft think the average Windows Phone user as non tech savvy as say the average iPhone/Android user is? When the truth is the average Windows Phone user knows their way around computer hardware/software ( The Family IT person). Like myself who gets more texts and emails from a larger extended family of iPhone/Android users asking why their phones or PC's are not doing what they want, or routers and printers falling off the home network, with statements like "The man on the phone said make sure the thing-a-majiggy was plugged in".

So why would I have the feeling Microsoft is again starting to creep up on another Windows Mobile to WP7 and WP7 to WP8 **** storm?

I will start with Windows RT Surface 1 and Surface 2, they have reached the end of the line and will get a much smaller update with Windows 10 like additions ( This is so Windows Phone 7.8), however I understand Microsoft is leaving the ARM tablet market so ok this one is not as upsetting as the Out Right Lie of Windows Phone 7.8 was as was WinMo 6.5 to WP7 was.
XDA Developers site and The Dark Forces Team shed light on that fact in spades, but Microsoft saying hardware change is not the reason for the end of RT, more an end to ARM chip tablets is the reason.

Microsoft is well aware by now the smart wearable Market is hot, as they had a huge hit with the band. Some Smartwatch makers are now in Gen 2 and 3 of their models.
Many Windows phone users who are not Fitness buffs would like a Watch, or Microsoft to open support to a maker so full features can be used.
As would many lovers of The Microsoft Band who live in countries where it is not available would give an arm or a leg to buy one.
However Microsoft appears to have gone cold on the whole Market. Yes they sold out in the USA and they even started to sell in the UK, however did not release right next door in Canada to see if there was interest.
Microsoft is the only company I have ever seen to be years ahead of others with something, drop interest rather then push on through, then pick it up later and have to play catch up.
As example Touch interface in Mobile Computing, Big Daddy Bill did a demo with a touch tablet well before iPad, only to have Microsoft drop interest until Windows 7 ( Project Origami ), at which time iPad and Samsung Galaxy Tab's were everywhere.
Also the Microsoft SPOT watch as part of the early Internet of things, again dropped and put away in a back closet never to see the light of day again.
For the love of god I wish some Microsoft Engineer would just open the door to find it, rip out the FM circuits and solder in a Bluetooth chip and ram then slap someone over at Swatch to run a limited run with some new reworked WP 8.1 support.....I would not be able to rip the cash out of my wallet quick enough to have something, anything that was Watch like from Microsoft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now it is slowly coming out that feature sets of Windows 10 for Phone will not make it to "older" Nokia made Windows Phones. This is where my fear starts to kick in. This is where I start to see something that I should not see again as a Windows Phone Fan and user.
This is also something Microsoft needs to learn from Apple......Yes set a Limit on how far back an OS upgrade goes back, but do not cut the prior 2 gen device lines right out.
Work the software issues out and release all the features to all the devices, then let the Consumer come to the idea that "My device seems slow".
The average user of a smartphone can make this connection on their own and will stick with a line if they think they are the ones who decide it's time to get better hardware to enjoy the software better.
If you chop off large chunks of the OS and tell the consumer it will only slow your phone down, you take away their opinion and like it or not it will only serve to harm your Market share in the long run.......
I would point out The HTC HD2 for this example, Microsoft got caught in a Lie saying the HD2 could not run WP7.....XDA, Cortulla, and The Dark Forces Team exposed the Lie by getting the HD2 to run everything they could get their hands on up to and including Windows RT.
From that how many HTC HD2 WinMo users left and got Android phones thanks to Android running on the HD2....I would say a fair share just outright left the Windows Mobile Market.

My hope is truly that I am wrong, but past deeds lead me to a hard to shake feeling that is slowly creeping in. And I can't help but think old habits are hard to break!!!!!

 

[Bkr11]

My opinions aren't as well thought out as yours, but in general I have similar concerns. EVERYBODY who knows me, both work & personally, knows I'm a huge Windows / Windows Phone fan, I refuse to buy an iPhone, and my Android phones are constantly laggy. All that said, I find myself eagerly looking forward to the LG G4 because I'm just getting tired of constantly swimming upstream with WP. I won't go into all the reasons since they go well beyond the "app gap", but suffice it to say that I really hope at some point Mr. Softy gets it and delivers a product/solution that has both consumer uptake and staying power that doesn't render (recent) prior generations obsolete.

 

[Spectrum90]

What features of the Windows 10 preview aren't working on the old 8.0 phones with 512mb of RAM?

 

[Greywolf1967]

What features of the Windows 10 preview aren't working on the old 8.0 phones with 512mb of RAM?

The preview is just that a preview, not full. However if I had a 512 model phone I would be very worried right now. I can not say for sure what will or will not work with each model as so little is out about the final build.

I will give you an example of my phone, and what has me worried.....or what triggered the fear to start creeping in.

Nokia Lumia 1020, not the biggest or best specs of all Windows Phones, however the Undisputed Champion for Camera......a 41 MP beast.

Shut out of the last 3 important Upgrades Living Images, Camera 5.0, now Hyperlapse. So my SoC is really that bad that Microsoft is not looking into bringing these to my phone.........reasons given so far "Hardware Issues". Does that sound like something heard before????

Now at the very least Mr. Emo hair Joe B. learned to change up his wording at the Build Demo to state......"The Hardware was not yet ready to have Continuum as a full on display, only a minor demo".
So I would bet Dollars to Donuts that will be a feature any 512 model will only dream of, and my 1020 I guess will also have to be passed over.
Unless they develop it so the Phone can display a desktop on big screen but not have the ability to use the phone at the same time.

A lot of what has been going on is what has kept me from Jumping onto a New Windows Phone, that my eyes are in need of. I want to stay, I want to believe all will be well........I just can't shake the feeling it's coming and it could be the slip that lands WP into a grave like Blackberry.

I would dearly love to retire my 1020 and move on to a 1320 ( or it's next release ), or a 640 XL, as both will work with my carrier. However I will have no Watch to pair it to, the other reason I have not dumped my cash out at a Microsoft store. Not that I would want The Band either (not a Fitness Guy), but guess what I'm in Canada it's not even sold here when it is available 3 hours away in Buffalo NY.

 

[Tsang Fai]

For how long will Msft stay depends on how much $ they are losing every year for Windows Phone.

Given the resources they have put in Windows 10, I don't see they will abandon Windows Phone in the next 5 years. In my opinion, all the things Msft recently has done makes much sense. The effect is unpredictable at the time being. Let's wait and see.

If they stay, they still have a chance to win (>5% market share is a small win, >10% is a big win). If they quit, they can never come back again I guess.

Given the diversity of business of Msft, they do not mind staying for a longer time. And it is a matter of having a "position" (though a very small %) in the mobile market.

As a Msft fan, I hope they can make WP self-sustainable (i.e. not losing money) and they do not lose the desktop/laptop PC market.

 

[Spectrum90]

Nokia Lumia 1020, not the biggest or best specs of all Windows Phones, however the Undisputed Champion for Camera......a 41 MP beast.

Shut out of the last 3 important Upgrades Living Images, Camera 5.0, now Hyperlapse. So my SoC is really that bad that Microsoft is not looking into bringing these to my phone.........reasons given so far "Hardware Issues". Does that sound like something heard before????

Continuum depends on the multi-display support of the SOC.
I'm not really into photography but I understand image processing is also supported by hardware.

A software update can't upgrade the hardware. Not even Apple can do that. iOS 7 couldn't "grow" a fingerprint scanner on the iPhone 5 to support Touch Id.

 

[Greywolf1967]

Continuum depends on the multi-display support of the SOC.
I'm not really into photography but I understand image processing is also supported by hardware.

A software update can't upgrade the hardware. Not even Apple can do that. iOS 7 couldn't "grow" a fingerprint scanner on the iPhone 5 to support Touch Id.

Yes all true facts.......

This would not even be a valid question, if in fact "Hardware" is the truth.

I would not even question Microsoft on a statement had this not happened..............

 

[Giddora]

Yes all true facts.......

This would not even be a valid question, if in fact "Hardware" is the truth.

I would not even question Microsoft on a statement had this not happened..............

View attachment 104778View attachment 104781

Edit:
Earlier post: "This was, however, a simulation and not a true demo of how Continuum would work. Like they say about 2 minutes before those screenshots are taken."
Correction: I thought this was about continuum, so I was first thinking they were pictures from the event... I then noticed it was from the HD2. The HD2 can run Windows RT... What is the problem here?

 

[N_LaRUE]

OK, so I read the posts here and I have a couple of points to make. You're probably not going to agree with everything I say but it's what I've come to understand.

Let's get something clear though, we can all agree that MS has handled all their hardware very poorly in general. They don't seem to stick to anything very well. They are a software company which is probably 90% of the issue.

Now taking a step back from that idea and let's look at things from where the problems first began with WP, the market and what's 'realistic'.

First the problems. Windows Phone was supposed to be an OS sold to OEMs for them to build hardware for. Like the PC market. Nokia decided to become a proprietary OEM and they pushed the OS to places it was never initially set out for. MS was targeting iPhone customers initially not Android. It was Nokia that took it to the low end market, pushed the idea of SD cards and proved the OS worked excellently on any device. Which turned out to be somewhat of a double edged sword. How do you sell flagships devices when there's no compelling reason to buy one? Sure having a great camera is important but is that all?

Then of course the market changed. What was considered a low end device when the L520 came out is no longer applicable. We have pretty cheap mobile phones with specs that make the L920 look bland by comparison. The market has shifted quite severally. Though MS still pushes their idea of the OS working great on any device it's now finding itself in a position where what will make a flagship attractive? Though there are many on here who may want a WP flagship, you have to attract the non users. How does one sell a flagship and a low end device that uses the same OS and can do everything the same? What do you do with your older devices?

Which brings up the idea of updates. How long should a device be updated for? 2 years? 5 Years? At what level? To what extent should consumers expect updates? We already know that there's too high of an expectation on MS when it comes to backward compatibility with it's Windows OS in general. Do we expect the same with a mobile OS? Mobile apps? Where's the dividing line?

The thing is, there already is one. When WP8.1 came out we saw the first division. Newer hardware would get things older or low end wouldn't. This of course upsets people because on the preview they saw these things working on their phones. However, division is necessary. Whether we like it or not. You simply cannot rely on a customer to determine when it's time to change devices. There's conspiracy theories around Apple and their updates that they 'purposely' make them run slower on older hardware. Whether it's true or not I don't really care but I'd rather MS's approach over that. You want the latest and greatest? Get a new phone. If you want to stick with yours expect limitations. This is only logical.

Now lastly about the hacking thing. Let's look at this from a realistic perspective. I'm not a hacker and most users are not hackers. We just want devices that work well. If people want to mess around and make challenges based on hacks that's fine but let's look at this from a company perspective. Some people like keeping devices for some time. For a company, this is not a profitable idea. I know that's not green either but we're talking companies here which typically care less about the environment and only about their 'shareholders'. Which is where we are with all this. We also have to realise that there are real hardware limitations when it comes to new software. That's just reality.

So in conclusion.

MS is going to make a divided OS. One based on hardware. Whether we like it or not. They have no choice in the matter if they want to attract people to their flagships and other higher end devices. This is the spot they're in and the only way forward at this time. Old hardware, low end hardware and probably mid range devices will not have all the features of W10. There has to be division for this to work for MS if they wish to continue popping out many different variations of smartphones.

Agree or disagree it's up to you.

 

[Greywolf1967]

The problem as stated in the first post is the fear Microsoft is falling into it old tricks again.......basically pull another money grab. As they did with the switch from WinMo 6.5 to WP7 and again on the switch from WP7 to WP8.

Show off what the next gen will be, hint at OS upgrades then slowly over time claim "Hardware issues" as the reason to have to buy all new phones again.

Now I am not saying this is the case, but from the bits that come out the old pattern is starting to show up again.

 

[Greywolf1967]

OK, so I read the posts here and I have a couple of points to make. You're probably not going to agree with everything I say but it's what I've come to understand.

Let's get something clear though, we can all agree that MS has handled all their hardware very poorly in general. They don't seem to stick to anything very well. They are a software company which is probably 90% of the issue.

Now taking a step back from that idea and let's look at things from where the problems first began with WP, the market and what's 'realistic'.

First the problems. Windows Phone was supposed to be an OS sold to OEMs for them to build hardware for. Like the PC market. Nokia decided to become a proprietary OEM and they pushed the OS to places it was never initially set out for. MS was targeting iPhone customers initially not Android. It was Nokia that took it to the low end market, pushed the idea of SD cards and proved the OS worked excellently on any device. Which turned out to be somewhat of a double edged sword. How do you sell flagships devices when there's no compelling reason to buy one? Sure having a great camera is important but is that all?

Then of course the market changed. What was considered a low end device when the L520 came out is no longer applicable. We have pretty cheap mobile phones with specs that make the L920 look bland by comparison. The market has shifted quite severally. Though MS still pushes their idea of the OS working great on any device it's now finding itself in a position where what will make a flagship attractive? Though there are many on here who may want a WP flagship, you have to attract the non users. How does one sell a flagship and a low end device that uses the same OS and can do everything the same? What do you do with your older devices?

Which brings up the idea of updates. How long should a device be updated for? 2 years? 5 Years? At what level? To what extent should consumers expect updates? We already know that there's too high of an expectation on MS when it comes to backward compatibility with it's Windows OS in general. Do we expect the same with a mobile OS? Mobile apps? Where's the dividing line?

The thing is, there already is one. When WP8.1 came out we saw the first division. Newer hardware would get things older or low end wouldn't. This of course upsets people because on the preview they saw these things working on their phones. However, division is necessary. Whether we like it or not. You simply cannot rely on a customer to determine when it's time to change devices. There's conspiracy theories around Apple and their updates that they 'purposely' make them run slower on older hardware. Whether it's true or not I don't really care but I'd rather MS's approach over that. You want the latest and greatest? Get a new phone. If you want to stick with yours expect limitations. This is only logical.

Now lastly about the hacking thing. Let's look at this from a realistic perspective. I'm not a hacker and most users are not hackers. We just want devices that work well. If people want to mess around and make challenges based on hacks that's fine but let's look at this from a company perspective. Some people like keeping devices for some time. For a company, this is not a profitable idea. I know that's not green either but we're talking companies here which typically care less about the environment and only about their 'shareholders'. Which is where we are with all this. We also have to realise that there are real hardware limitations when it comes to new software. That's just reality.

So in conclusion.

MS is going to make a divided OS. One based on hardware. Whether we like it or not. They have no choice in the matter if they want to attract people to their flagships and other higher end devices. This is the spot they're in and the only way forward at this time. Old hardware, low end hardware and probably mid range devices will not have all the features of W10. There has to be division for this to work for MS if they wish to continue popping out many different variations of smartphones.

Agree or disagree it's up to you.

I do not dispute many of your points, save for the Consumer can decide when to upgrade. As Youtube and it's likes have become a center for review and display of hardware, the person who sees the new phones running better then their older handset, will make the switch.

In the past 2 change overs Microsoft said the "Hardware was not able to run the new OS", this was exposed to be an outright lie, and it was to Microsoft's cost in the fact they slipped in Market share, as Consumers were left with a bad taste in their mouths. It was never a hardware issue it was a Cost of Development issue. They took a gamble and in my opinion lost more in the long run by loosing Market Share. As many may never return from the ones who left.

All in the Face of Apple and Android bringing their older handsets up to JellyBean/KitKat and iOS 6/7, hard limits set on how many models it went back.

Of the iPhone users I know, none went out day 1 to buy a new iPhone, however after 3-6 months they all had next gen, as the most common reason given for the buy was the OS seemed slower.

When you take away Consumer Opinion, you do so at your own cost, like Blackberry and their 2 major blunders.......Playbook with no way to use email without a Blackberry (In spite of Consumer wishes), and dropping the physical keyboard for all touch screen ( again against Consumer wishes), and where are they now..........

 

[N_LaRUE]

I do not dispute many of your points, save for the Consumer can decide when to upgrade. As Youtube and it's likes have become a center for review and display of hardware, the person who sees the new phones running better then their older handset, will make the switch.

In the past 2 change overs Microsoft said the "Hardware was not able to run the new OS", this was exposed to be an outright lie, and it was to Microsoft's cost in the fact they slipped in Market share, as Consumers were left with a bad taste in their mouths. It was never a hardware issue it was a Cost of Development issue. They took a gamble and in my opinion lost more in the long run by loosing Market Share. As many may never return from the ones who left.

All in the Face of Apple and Android bringing their older handsets up to JellyBean/KitKat and iOS 6/7, hard limits set on how many models it went back.

Of the iPhone users I know, none went out day 1 to buy a new iPhone, however after 3-6 months they all had next gen, as the most common reason given for the buy was the OS seemed slower.

When you take away Consumer Opinion, you do so at your own cost, like Blackberry and their 2 major blunders.......Playbook with no way to use email without a Blackberry (In spite of Consumer wishes), and dropping the physical keyboard for all touch screen ( again against Consumer wishes), and where are they now..........

It's virtually impossible to satisfy every consumer and the level of variance is quite extreme. You have some who will go buy the latest and greatest and others who will hold onto a phone for 5-6 years. Then the middle ground of 2-3 years. Which is what most companies target.

As for them lying. So what? All companies lie. It's common practice, just as much as politicians do it. The key thing to understand is that everything has a shelf life. Everything. With the idea of planned obsolescence you will never have any thing running for a long period of time. With consumerism being such a driven thing in our society we are left to buy more and more because that drives the economy. That's reality. So if you want to get technical. This is MS's way of forcing planned obsolescence. Saying that the hardware can't run it. Most people won't care and get the new hardware. Others like yourself might not like it.

This isn't exactly like the WP7 episode. It's just them saying, you can still use your phone, run the apps, just don't expect all the bells and whistles. I don't see an issue with that and no one should.

 

[Greywolf1967]

Let me also add.....I'd be happy if my Nokia Lumia 1020 had a version of Continuum ( not dual screen control like new hardware), and could more then likely be developed to run and run well.

It really would not take all that long before it would get at me that a newer phone can run and desktop screen and the phone be used at the same time. However that is just me....

 

[Greywolf1967]

Well One and Done of the past will not keep market share. Set a limit to how many GEN devices will be covered but to follow past trends will push Microsoft out of the mobile market.
Also how well would a "One and Done" do in the very important Emerging Markets of India and China?????
If they don't follow Apple and Android and bring some of the older devices up, they will not even crack the market. They will join BlackBerry on the edge of a grave leaning back into the hole.

 

[N_LaRUE]

If they don't follow Apple and Android and bring some of the older devices up, they will not even crack the market. They will join BlackBerry on the edge of a grave leaning back into the hole.

The older devices are getting W10, just not all the bells and whistles. They'll upgrade all the devices they can or what carriers will allow. They've said this from the beginning or with the Insider Program.

The older phones will still have W10. They'll still have cross platform apps. They just won't have top end features like Continuum or whatever else might be too much for the older hardware.

This isn't like WP7 either.

So I've yet to understand your issues. MS wants to have impressive features for their flagships. So what?

 

[rory753]

the feature set that you may be concerned about is more akin to what happened with windows phone 8 to 8.1. When windows phone started taking advantage of the quad core chips as opposed to the dual core chips in the lumia 920/820/720/etc. certain features became available, like motion data for fitness tracking, or miracast, and some other items. this didn't make the 920 irrelevant, because its still a capable device and it runs the windows 10 TP ok, but we also can't have innovative products without considering changing the hardware.

the switch from windows 7 phone to windows 8 phone was really, really, really annoying. In my opinion, they shouldn't have even released wp7, but released wp8 a year later. but they thought strategically they needed to get in the market, and so goes.

killing windows RT for me is a mixed bag. I like windows RT due to the hardware on it, but I always wondered why do we need a desktop? why did they spend the effort to make a desktop to run the office apps as opposed to making the office apps to run in metro? the windows rt tablet should have been a LTE connected tablet in the purest form. they only started offering LTE for surface at the very last model. My hope was windows 10 would have brought the same experience on a 1520 to the lumia 2520, but alas, it's not to be. It feels like the developer tools they just released at build should have been released before the announcement of RT/windows 8, but that might have been putting the cart before the horse.

right now, from the technical previews, I don't see a whole lot that's going to make me feel windows 10 is going leave our current hardware devices out in the cold. there are 2 features that are going to be coming to the new hardware, which are pen support and whatever it takes to do continuum. beyond that, everything should be the same as it is now.

 

[Spectrum90]

OP, don't be so cheap. Instead of spending your time whining, work a few extra hours, and with that money buy a phone that supports the features that you want.

 

[Jazmac]

Yet another Tale Of Woe!

 

[Greywolf1967]

OP, don't be so cheap. Instead of spending your time whining, work a few extra hours, and with that money buy a phone that supports the features that you want.

Firstly and most important I have no issue at all buying a new phone. I have been holding back as I am still in hopes of a Watch to pair with what ever I end up with...right now either a 1320 ( or it's next version), or 640 XL.
No I don't want a Band as it lacks the most important feature of a watch.......a Watch Face.

I have no issue giving my money to whom ever sells me what I desire. Hell my 1020 was bought outright with Camera Grip.....paid in cash....not on contract. Then $30 on top to unlock.

So please read all statements before you take the time to type your waste of words.

The whole thing is not to say I quit, or I am leaving......it was to point out the pattern of the past again creeping in.

Any other smart comment to make??????????

 

[Greywolf1967]

Yet another Tale Of Woe!
View attachment 104851

Really Jaz?? My guess is you also did not take the time to read.......you would rather appear cool and smart and flip out a comment.......

I have even stated......."I hope I am wrong" basically about what I see happen.