Surface Pro 2 might not use Li-Po Battery?!

chfhyh

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I just found out that Surface Pro 1st Gen uses a Li-ion battery instead of Li-Po.

What a bummer!! I hope pro 2 is not using the same battery...

OK, you might think why I made this a big deal, but guys...the fact is:

One, although Wiki and sources do not say there should be a difference in lifespan between Li-Po and Li-ion batteries, but we all know that the devices with Li-Po batteries seem to last longer. e.g. Apple devices all use Li-Po battery which go through many charge cycles without losing significant amount of capacity. I have Dells with Li-ion and they seem to last shorter and shorter pretty fast.

Two, even for one single charge, the ultra-books with great battery life all use li-po batteries, likes of MBA, Acer S7, Dell XPS 12, Sony Duo 13... and Nokia Lumias... (loving my L920 BTW). I cannot help but think this might be why the 1st gen surface pro has bad battery life on one charge...

So, why? Microsoft, why!! I understand Li-ion is cheaper, but this is a premium device and it is not cheap.. why save a few bucks on battery while it could be better and help prolong the lifespan of the device??!!

if i have to dig deeper, these might be the potential causes:
- Li-ion has higher capacity, so smaller size and more juice
- Li-ion is safer, we all know that there are many instances of iPhone battery exploding around the world...

but still.... I guess this is beyond me...
 
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SwimSwim

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Apple devices with long battery life? Only if you're talking about Macbook Airs, and the 1st & 2nd generation iPads. Other than that, Apple devices get crummy battery life.
 

chfhyh

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I was focusing on the lifespan of the battery...

but yes, Apple devices have great battery life, which due to both hardware and software reasons. and this is a fact.. please do not let the ego derail the facts...

Apple devices with long battery life? Only if you're talking about Macbook Airs, and the 1st & 2nd generation iPads. Other than that, Apple devices get crummy battery life.
 

SwimSwim

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I was focusing on the lifespan of the battery...

but yes, Apple devices have great battery life, which due to both hardware and software reasons. and this is a fact.. please do not let the ego derail the facts...

Well, the Surface Pro 2 promises much improved battery life. How about we let the numbers do the talking, when this actually goes on sale.
 

Cleavitt76

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Without seeing the source you got your information from it's hard to know what your concern is. I can tell you that Lithium based battery technology is very diverse and complex. Generic labels like "Li-ion" and "Li-Po" do not tell the whole story. For one, Li-Po is a type of Li-ion battery. Li-po is actually short for "Li-ion Polymer" which is short for "Lithium ion polymer". Sometimes Li-po batteries are even referred to more generically as Li-ion even by the manufacturer. Secondly, there are so many chemistries used in both Li-ion and Li-po batteries that you can't just make a blanket statement about one being superior to the other. Here is a quote from a company that analyzed the guts of the Surface Pro that might make you feel better...

"Microsoft spared no expense when it came to keeping the Surface Pro going. They sourced the Cadillac of batteries from LG: an Escalade 42 Wh unit. The battery is rated for 7.4 V and 5676 mAh."

Microsoft Surface Pro Teardown - Page 3 - iFixit

The picture of the battery in that teardown article looks like a lithium polymer design to me (square and flat) and the fact that it is packaged in a hard case implies that it is a li-po design.

LG Chem is known for being a leader (perhaps THE leader at the moment) in Lithium battery technology so regardless of the exact battery design it's safe to say it is a premium battery and MS was not taking shortcuts.
 

Cleavitt76

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...

if i have to dig deeper, these might be the potential causes:
- Li-ion has higher capacity, so smaller size and more juice
- Li-ion is safer, we all know that there are many instances of iPhone battery exploding around the world...

BTW: Good theories, but Li-ion cell designs usually have less capacity (so larger, heavier, and less juice) than modern Li-ion polymer designs. Also, polymer designs are generally considered more stable and less likely to catch fire compared to cell designs.
 

Jas00555

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I was focusing on the lifespan of the battery...

but yes, Apple devices have great battery life, which due to both hardware and software reasons. and this is a fact.. please do not let the ego derail the facts...

Not really.... Maybe the Airs but that's about it. There's a reason I've seen a lot of people refer to their phone having "ios7%"
 

chfhyh

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I do not want to get into an argument, but give me a link that prove what you stated below in quote is true.... again, li-po is lighter but it does not have a capacity density of the li-ion, and it is easier to catch fire if overcharged...

BTW: Good theories, but Li-ion cell designs usually have less capacity (so larger, heavier, and less juice) than modern Li-ion polymer designs. Also, polymer designs are generally considered more stable and less likely to catch fire compared to cell designs.
 
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chfhyh

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smartass, it bothers me a little since you sounded like you are an expert yet the statements you made says not...

I know what li-po means, I read ifixit too. if a battery is li-po, it will say it is li-ion polymer, but this one as you pointed out yourself, says LI-ION... also, other review sites who actually differentiates the two pointed that out too... research before you make statements.

And no, I do not have any feeling towards what ifixit says because it does not run benchmarks or test any components...

I like the surface pro, and I would like to be proven wrong. The good news is that another article I read today says the Surface 2 Pro might use a different battery that the first one, which is good.

Without seeing the source you got your information from it's hard to know what your concern is. I can tell you that Lithium based battery technology is very diverse and complex. Generic labels like "Li-ion" and "Li-Po" do not tell the whole story. For one, Li-Po is a type of Li-ion battery. Li-po is actually short for "Li-ion Polymer" which is short for "Lithium ion polymer". Sometimes Li-po batteries are even referred to more generically as Li-ion even by the manufacturer. Secondly, there are so many chemistries used in both Li-ion and Li-po batteries that you can't just make a blanket statement about one being superior to the other. Here is a quote from a company that analyzed the guts of the Surface Pro that might make you feel better...

"Microsoft spared no expense when it came to keeping the Surface Pro going. They sourced the Cadillac of batteries from LG: an Escalade 42 Wh unit. The battery is rated for 7.4 V and 5676 mAh."

Microsoft Surface Pro Teardown - Page 3 - iFixit

The picture of the battery in that teardown article looks like a lithium polymer design to me (square and flat) and the fact that it is packaged in a hard case implies that it is a li-po design.

LG Chem is known for being a leader (perhaps THE leader at the moment) in Lithium battery technology so regardless of the exact battery design it's safe to say it is a premium battery and MS was not taking shortcuts.
 

Cleavitt76

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I do not want to get into an argument, but give me a link that prove what you stated below in quote is true.... again, li-po is lighter but it does not have a capacity density of the li-ion, and it is easier to catch fire if overcharged...

smartass, it bothers me a little since you sounded like you are an expert yet the statements you made says not...

I know what li-po means, I read ifixit too. if a battery is li-po, it will say it is li-ion polymer, but this one as you pointed out yourself, says LI-ION... also, other review sites who actually differentiates the two pointed that out too... research before you make statements.

And no, I do not have any feeling towards what ifixit says because it does not run benchmarks or test any components...

I like the surface pro, and I would like to be proven wrong. The good news is that another article I read today says the Surface 2 Pro might use a different battery that the first one, which is good.

Geez, for someone that doesn't want to argue you take offense way too easily to someone trying to participate in your thread. I wasn't trying to be condescending. Here are some sources...

"This provides added cost and weight benefits and design flexibility. Additionally, the absence of free liquid makes Lithium-ion polymer batteries more stable and less vulnerable to problems caused by overcharge, damage or abuse.

"[In Li-ion polymer] the added volume of electrolyte provides increased energy storage. This makes them ideal for use in high capacity low power applications."


Lithium Secondary - Rechargeable - Cells

"Li-polymer offers slightly higher specific energy and can be made thinner than conventional Li-ion"

Li-polymer Battery: Substance or Hype?

Keep in mind that I was comparing cells to polymer packs so the weight and volume of the cell/shell (along with wasted space in the case of cylindrical cells) comes into play when comparing overall watts per given weight or volume. I'm also aware that there are sources that will say the opposite of what these sources state. That is because Li-ion and Li-po are both very generic terms and there are lots of other factors involved. Also, the technology has progressed so rapidly in recent years that some of the previous differences are now negligible or even reversed. This was actually my overall point. It's not really fair to assume that one is better than the other based strictly on the label of Li-ion or Li-po. The manufacturer, chemistry, and design are more significant factors.

BTW: I have a $500 Li-po battery sitting on my desk right now with the following label: "25.9v 21Ah (30A rate) Li-ion Battery Pack." I know for a fact that it is a polymer pack, but it is labeled by the manufacturer as "Li-ion". After looking a second time I agree that the Surface Pro battery is probably Li-ion not polymer, but I have seen more than one example of Li-po batteries labeled as Li-ion for whatever reason.

Anyway, in an attempt to add something useful to the conversation, my Surface Pro's battery is at 96% of it's original rating after ~8 months of daily use. I almost fully discharge it most days so I'm not going easy on the battery at all.
 

chfhyh

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thanks a lot for participating. i might took it on more personal than i thought i was.

thanks for the source too. i think the bottom line is that there is no significant difference between the two as the quality would largely depend on how the battery is manufactured.

but, it is still said that surface uses li-ion... for a device that needs to be light, it does not make a lot of sense. 96% is a pretty good number though. i think Apple is claiming 1000 discharge cycles before it reaches 80%.

Geez, for someone that doesn't want to argue you take offense way too easily to someone trying to participate in your thread. I wasn't trying to be condescending. Here are some sources...

"This provides added cost and weight benefits and design flexibility. Additionally, the absence of free liquid makes Lithium-ion polymer batteries more stable and less vulnerable to problems caused by overcharge, damage or abuse.

"[In Li-ion polymer] the added volume of electrolyte provides increased energy storage. This makes them ideal for use in high capacity low power applications."


Lithium Secondary - Rechargeable - Cells

"Li-polymer offers slightly higher specific energy and can be made thinner than conventional Li-ion"

Li-polymer Battery: Substance or Hype?

Keep in mind that I was comparing cells to polymer packs so the weight and volume of the cell/shell (along with wasted space in the case of cylindrical cells) comes into play when comparing overall watts per given weight or volume. I'm also aware that there are sources that will say the opposite of what these sources state. That is because Li-ion and Li-po are both very generic terms and there are lots of other factors involved. Also, the technology has progressed so rapidly in recent years that some of the previous differences are now negligible or even reversed. This was actually my overall point. It's not really fair to assume that one is better than the other based strictly on the label of Li-ion or Li-po. The manufacturer, chemistry, and design are more significant factors.

BTW: I have a $500 Li-po battery sitting on my desk right now with the following label: "25.9v 21Ah (30A rate) Li-ion Battery Pack." I know for a fact that it is a polymer pack, but it is labeled by the manufacturer as "Li-ion". After looking a second time I agree that the Surface Pro battery is probably Li-ion not polymer, but I have seen more than one example of Li-po batteries labeled as Li-ion for whatever reason.

Anyway, in an attempt to add something useful to the conversation, my Surface Pro's battery is at 96% of it's original rating after ~8 months of daily use. I almost fully discharge it most days so I'm not going easy on the battery at all.
 

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