Why JPEG are so bad on Lumia devices?

[Rodrigo Mendes]

I'm wondering why JPEG have such a bad compression on Lumia devices. The color accuracy is just awful and contrast level too (it's too much on daily shots). Only noise reduction works well on Lumia JPEG treatment.

The picture below is a JPEG from Lumia. The second picture is a DNG exported to JPEG on Lightroom (without any treatment). Look the huge difference between them.

I really hope for changes on Denim Update. Because for now my JPEG pics are useless. I always need to convert on Lightroom or use RAWER app (it's not perfect, don't have the correct Lumia profile for DNG pics like Lightroom).

ps.: Lumia 930.

 

[Dot Matrix]

Denim is supposed to bring better image algorithms. When I first bought my 920, images were 100x times worse than they are now, and were processed with extremely high ISO, causing severe graininess.

If your camera doesn't support shooting in RAW format, you're pretty much stuck with the processing algorithm.

 

[EspHack]

you can shoot in RAW with the 930

 

[Rodrigo Mendes]

@Esphack Did you actually read what I wrote?

I know 930 can take DNG/RAW pics and that's exactly what I used on comparison above.

I just want my JPEG pics looks exaclty like the DNG ones, but with noise reduction only.

 

[jojoe42]

@Esphack Did you actually read what I wrote?

I know 930 can take DNG/RAW pics and that's exactly what I used on comparison above.

I just want my JPEG pics looks exaclty like the DNG ones, but with noise reduction only.

I usually set the white balance manually, and then leave the rest on auto in Lumia Camera. Works perfectly.

 

[Rodrigo Mendes]

I usually set the white balance manually, and then leave the rest on auto in Lumia Camera. Works perfectly.

WB is not the problem. Look the huge difference between color accuracy in pictures below. The couple on the right side have really bad color compression on JPEG and looks beautiful and accurate on DNG.

 

[RumoredNow]

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Jpg is jpg and DNG is... well RAW on the Adobe standard.

How about Lumia jpg vs Samsung jpg vs iPhone jpg at the same MP level. Then try Lumia DNG vs Samsung DNG vs iPhone DNG (oh wait... my mistake on that second one; they both can only convert jpg to RAW with post shot processing).

 

[Rodrigo Mendes]

I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

I don't see any problem on this comparison. DNG is a raw picture, so JPEG need to be almost accurate as DNG. It's expected some treatment or even quality loss on JPEG process, but not like we can see on this comparison. It's just too much.

 

[iamtim]

so JPEG need to be almost accurate as DNG

...whaaaaaat?

DNG is a lossless format, JPG is a lossy, compressed format. How can you possibly have "almost" equally accurate results between a lossless, non-compressed format, and a lossy, compressed format?

 

[fishfacemcgee]

...whaaaaaat?

DNG is a lossless format, JPG is a lossy, compressed format. How can you possibly have "almost" equally accurate results between a lossless, non-compressed format, and a lossy, compressed format?

Well, given how the second image is a JPG (just originally captured as a RAW image), that's how. He even says himself that he expects there to be some compression artifacting, but there's overall picture quality differences (color accuracy/white balance/etc.) that shouldn't be only due to the compression.

Presumably, the JPG-from-raw image doesn't look dramatically different from the original DNG. I imagine Rodrigo's thinking is that the Lumia should be functionally similar to capturing as RAW and saving to JPG without processing.

 

[sisqo88]

I think he means the color accuracy. The old Nokia N Serie cameras like the Nokia N8 and 808 got really accurate colors and the pictures looks so good. After Daimin Dinig leaves Nokia and the Lumias came the pictures getting oversaturated not right colored, to yellowish or to green and and and.

 

[RumoredNow]

I don't see any problem on this comparison. DNG is a raw picture, so JPEG need to be almost accurate as DNG. It's expected some treatment or even quality loss on JPEG process, but not like we can see on this comparison. It's just too much.

Even if the software used to open the jpg and the dng the same, doesn't the dng by it's very nature receive some interpretive processing?

 

[blue1k]

I think he means the color accuracy. The old Nokia N Serie cameras like the Nokia N8 and 808 got really accurate colors and the pictures looks so good. After Daimin Dinig leaves Nokia and the Lumias came the pictures getting oversaturated not right colored, to yellowish or to green and and and.

Exactly.

I think most of you are missing the OP's focus here. Why are the jpeg algorithms ruining white balance. I can take same photo on another phone using same iso, exposure, and have much better white balance in the produces jpeg. This is a big problem I have the current Cyan firmware. White balance is terrible indoors compared to an iPhone, S5, or Z3. I really hope MS does a good job in correcting this in Denim.

But I disagree on the compression. I think the jpegs have a good processing algorithm with very little aberrations. Look at an S5 jpeg and you can see how bad the jpeg processing with noise reduction and over sharpening really is

 

[Mr Lebowski]

Color balance for accuracy ? no just tonal correctness - 1 click

 

[techiez]

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Jpg is jpg and DNG is... well RAW on the Adobe standard.

How about Lumia jpg vs Samsung jpg vs iPhone jpg at the same MP level. Then try Lumia DNG vs Samsung DNG vs iPhone DNG (oh wait... my mistake on that second one; they both can only convert jpg to RAW with post shot processing).

is this comment even worth posting? OP is talking abt image processing algos of Nokia y bring samsung n iphone into this, btw iphone does much better job at color reproduction than lumias, also assuming both samsung n iphones are worse than Lumia stillif lumia is bad then its bad, thats wat op is saying, by bringing in samsung n iphone to compare u r digressing.

 

[Rodrigo Mendes]

...whaaaaaat?

DNG is a lossless format, JPG is a lossy, compressed format. How can you possibly have "almost" equally accurate results between a lossless, non-compressed format, and a lossy, compressed format?

You know................. Both pics are JPEG here.

So... Yes, the JPEG could have the same quality of DNG if you using the correct tools.

I think he means the color accuracy. The old Nokia N Serie cameras like the Nokia N8 and 808 got really accurate colors and the pictures looks so good. After Daimin Dinig leaves Nokia and the Lumias came the pictures getting oversaturated not right colored, to yellowish or to green and and and.

Exaclty. The JPEG from Lumia have washed colors, looks like ISO 3200 shot. It's not right. The compression process should not have this huge quality loss.

Exactly.

I think most of you are missing the OP's focus here. Why are the jpeg algorithms ruining white balance. I can take same photo on another phone using same iso, exposure, and have much better white balance in the produces jpeg. This is a big problem I have the current Cyan firmware. White balance is terrible indoors compared to an iPhone, S5, or Z3. I really hope MS does a good job in correcting this in Denim.

But I disagree on the compression. I think the jpegs have a good processing algorithm with very little aberrations. Look at an S5 jpeg and you can see how bad the jpeg processing with noise reduction and over sharpening really is

S5 compression process is awful too. Even worst than any other device I ever put my hands on. The sharpness treatment is too much and noise reduction is bad too. The last update just turn the things worst than never for S5 owners.

Bad Auto WB is on Lumia since my first one, Lumia 710. So I don't think it will be better. But that is not what I talking about here. It's not bad WB. It's the bad compression processing and I hope Denim bring better results for us.

Well, given how the second image is a JPG (just originally captured as a RAW image), that's how. He even says himself that he expects there to be some compression artifacting, but there's overall picture quality differences (color accuracy/white balance/etc.) that shouldn't be only due to the compression.

Presumably, the JPG-from-raw image doesn't look dramatically different from the original DNG. I imagine Rodrigo's thinking is that the Lumia should be functionally similar to capturing as RAW and saving to JPG without processing.

Yes, that's excaclty what I mean.

Lumia JPEG should looks just like the second JPEG. Should not have washed, inaccurate and poor colors like we have on first one.

 

[realwarder]

I think you're missing the fact that one is a RAW file and the other a JPG. And yes, I know you're saying that, but the point of the RAW file is to store the file before things like color temperature are applied, whereas the JPG is afterwards. That is how my Canon DSLR is anyway - the RAW file has sufficient detail to recreate the JPG when simulating what post processing the camera applied, but doesn't have to look the same.

Here is what a website says about RAW to backup what I'm saying.

• not an image file per se (it will require special software to view, though this software is easy to get).
• typically a proprietary format (with the exception of Adobe’s DNG format that isn’t widely used yet).
• at least 8 bits per color – red, green, and blue (12-bits per X,Y location), though most DSLRs record 12-bit color (36-bits per location).
• uncompressed (an 8 megapixel camera will produce a 8 MB Raw file).
• the complete (lossless) data from the camera’s sensor.
• higher in dynamic range (ability to display highlights and shadows).
• lower in contrast (flatter, washed out looking).
• not as sharp.
• not suitable for printing directly from the camera or without post processing.
...

So while you prefer your RAW file, the JPG is the camera's guess at what the real scene was like. In this instance you don't like it as much.

 

[RumoredNow]

is this comment even worth posting? OP is talking abt image processing algos of Nokia y bring samsung n iphone into this, btw iphone does much better job at color reproduction than lumias, also assuming both samsung n iphones are worse than Lumia stillif lumia is bad then its bad, thats wat op is saying, by bringing in samsung n iphone to compare u r digressing.

I thought it WAS worth posting...

He's trying to compare a jpg to a dng. Lumia is fortunate to be the ONLY smartphone to capture dng. My little dig at Samsung and iPhone was meant to illustrate that the superior format will look better and why slam Lumia for offering him a means to compare these apples and oranges?

If Samsung or iPhone did the same, the dng there would make the jpg look poor by comparison. It is circuitous logic, but self-contained and germane, IMHO.

BTW the dng is straight from the sensor and at 16 or 19MP (depending on aspect ratio). The jpg is 5MP and oversampled. They will never look the same. Does an apple look the same as an orange?

 

[Mr Lebowski]

Lumia JPEG should looks just like the second JPEG. Should not have washed, inaccurate and poor colors like we have on first one.

I hate to be the one that breaks the news to you, but not everyone sees color balance or saturation alike, including you.
Out of curiosity which picture of yours that I posted do you "like" or think is more "accurate" ?

 

[iamtim]

BTW the dng is straight from the sensor and at 16 or 19MP (depending on aspect ratio). The jpg is 5MP and oversampled. They will never look the same.

So much this. The idea that they should be the same is... ludicrous.