11-12-2011 03:40 PM
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  1. red grenadine's Avatar
    Will any OEM ever make a device that is rite for everyone? Its not possible to put it all in the same device these new devices are already way to expensive INHO if they added all the things the OP wants the device cost would surely go up. I think the Titan is a good balance of hardware but the cost is still to high. It will be interesting what the subsidized price will be is $300 plus 2 year contract to much money to spend?
    I'm basically looking for a samsung focus with 32gb standard onboard memory, front facing camera, and better build quality

    You can't tell me that's more expensive than the behemoth that is the titan. And even if it was, so what, market it as THE flagship WP7 phone.

    Like i said, maybe it'll be the new Samsung Galaxy S2 variant or Nokia Sea Ray. I'm just hoping the OEMs do better this time around than last time
    velvetelvis likes this.
    09-03-2011 12:16 PM
  2. velvetelvis's Avatar
    maybe ms needs to do what google does and release "their" version of the phone alongside the oem's? but wait, isnt that what nokia is supposed to be?
    09-03-2011 12:53 PM
  3. Dusteater's Avatar
    It's all just taking too long. That is the biggest problem. I would consider myself to be a pretty big Microsoft fanboy. If I don't even have a Windows Phone yet because there isn't one on Sprint with global roaming then something is wrong. So, I wait for something new to come out on AT&T... and keep waiting... At this point I don't expect to have a Windows Phone until well into 2012. Everything that has been announced or rumored is only coming to Europe this year. I am not holding my breath to see a single Mango device in the USA in 2011.
    09-03-2011 01:36 PM
  4. theefman's Avatar
    It's all just taking too long. That is the biggest problem. I would consider myself to be a pretty big Microsoft fanboy. If I don't even have a Windows Phone yet because there isn't one on Sprint with global roaming then something is wrong. So, I wait for something new to come out on AT&T... and keep waiting... At this point I don't expect to have a Windows Phone until well into 2012. Everything that has been announced or rumored is only coming to Europe this year. I am not holding my breath to see a single Mango device in the USA in 2011.
    Well in the US carrier are king, so if no carrier shows interest in carrying any new WP7 there is no way to get one officially, especially on CDMA carriers like Sprint and Verizon. People can import devices for use on GSM carriers like T-mo and att but thats probably at the expense of 3G and will be expensive.

    Then you figure in the fact tha US carriers are all basically android fanboys and you can see why Europe would be first, as you can still release devices there that can either be bought unlocked or with a contract from 3rd party vendors.

    So sadly, for all the talk from MS and the advantage in services the US has WP7 uptake in the US is likely to be on the slow side for a long time.
    09-03-2011 02:10 PM
  5. Reflexx's Avatar
    Unfortunately, MS isn't really plating in a position of strength yet. And while there are a bunch of things we wish MS could force carriers to do, it isn't going to happen. If US carriers tell MS to f*** off, then WP is dead.

    After there is an established and strong ecosystem, then MS might have some leverage. Though, they might have to actually team up with Apple and Google when it comes to pushing around carriers.

    Apple has been doing all they can. But there is only so much even they can do right now. It will take multiple strong systems combined to make a difference. Google hasn't put much pressure yet. But it feels like it's just a matter of time.
    Just Visiting and threed61 like this.
    09-03-2011 04:24 PM
  6. theefman's Avatar
    Which is why Microsoft should be pushing with all they have in the area they DO control, the OS. Still cant believe no backup, no BT audio when playing videos, no real, top notch 1st party game from MGS. So OEM's dont care to do their best because the OS is still lacking, and carriers likewise are not too interested because they dont have any compelling handsets to woo customers with. And then so many WP7 services dont work around the world so how are they going to get any leverage? They are moving too slowly so its no wonder carriers and OEM's alike arent rushing to support it.
    09-03-2011 05:06 PM
  7. Reflexx's Avatar
    Too slowly?

    This is an OS. Not a simple application.

    They practically started over with Windows Phone. And in this short time they've created something pretty awesome.

    The Mango update contains over 500 improvements. I wouldn't classify that as veven remotely slow.

    Unless code is supposed to pop out of thin air.
    threed61 likes this.
    09-04-2011 02:49 AM
  8. Pronk's Avatar
    No, too slowly is valid because they knew what everyone else had. iOS and Android have been around for 5 years or so now. MS dragged their heels with WM6.5 and launched WP7 well after iOS and Android with a LOT missing. It really only became decent and able to hold its own with NoDo.

    If they were a small startup, fair enough. But they're one of the biggest, richest companies in the world. If WP7 is to succeed they need to be on par or better right now, not in 6 months time. Mango addresses that to a large extent, but seriously - with pockets as deep as MS have, how did they let it take so long? Code may not pop out of thin air - but if you need more code, hire more coders.
    09-04-2011 07:05 AM
  9. theefman's Avatar
    Sadly the only ones who seem to think they've actually have created something awesome are us, people who have got a WP7 device. Doesnt seem to be encouraging the kind of enthusiasm from oem's and carriers they are displaying for android.

    Let me ask, with Mango adding so many features is there any patricular reason OEM's should not be stepping up their game, in device design and promotion of their upcoming WP7 devices? Why is it that they seem so reluctant to even mention they make WP7 handsets, like it seems Samsung is? They make a sale either way so what's really going on?
    Last edited by theefman; 09-04-2011 at 07:29 AM.
    09-04-2011 07:13 AM
  10. foosball's Avatar
    Sadly the only ones who seem to think they've actually have created something awesome are us, people who have got a WP7 device. Doesnt seem to be encouraging the kind of enthusiasm from oem's and carriers they are displaying for android.



    Let me ask, with Mango adding so many features is there any patricular reason OEM's should not be stepping up their game, in device design and promotion of their upcoming WP7 devices? Why is it that they seem so reluctant to even mention they make WP7 handsets, like it seems Samsung is? They make a sale either way so what's really going on?
    I'm curious about this too because its so blatantly apparent that they are shoving Android down consumer's throats. Every damn contact I get from Sprint is Android this or that. It appears more momentum related than anything else but after awhile it does feel conspiratorial.

    Sent from my HTC Arrive using Board Express
    09-04-2011 08:06 AM
  11. wolf1891's Avatar
    ...Code may not pop out of thin air - but if you need more code, hire more coders.
    okay... now I'm not really looking to defend MS on this topic but... as a programmer I kinda resented this particular statement of yours. First off, are you a programmer? Because if so then you should know that it's not just a case of throwing bodies behind keyboards to get results. Good code takes TIME to design, develop, and TEST. Extra coders can help (in certain areas) but, it's more important to have the few, BEST programmers you can find doing what they do best rather than lots of mediocre to average coders doing okay work that will then require tons more time in the testing and debugging phases.

    The mistake MS made was not in failing to develop this O/S fast enough, the mistake was letting the competition get several years head start before even beginning to develop a serious smartphone O/S option. In the little time they have had MS's WP7 development team has done a TON of great work. Would I like them to be even further along? Yes. But I also very much prefer that we have the smoothly functional and stable O/S that we have now rather than a buggy, clunky mess of an O/S that's likely to result when you rush too much and just bring in tons of extra coders to try and knock things out quickly. Better to take the extra time to do it right the first time even if it means not getting all of the features we want as soon as we'd like them.
    heyitwrx and tomlamb like this.
    09-04-2011 08:55 AM
  12. smartpatrol's Avatar
    I'm curious about this too because its so blatantly apparent that they are shoving Android down consumer's throats. Every damn contact I get from Sprint is Android this or that. It appears more momentum related than anything else but after awhile it does feel conspiratorial.
    I don't know if I'd say it's a conspiracy, it's just economics.

    Think about it this way: why would any OEM want to push WP7 over Android? WP7 is supposedly $15/device to license, whereas Android is free (actually I think there is a $5 fee to use the Android name and include Google's maps/nav and app store, but you get the picture). OEMs are already struggling to turn a profit from Android. Only Samsung and HTC have managed to turn a profit from their smartphone divisions. . . Motorola, LG, and Sony are all in the red. An extra $10/device is a hard pill to swallow. Meanwhile, since Android has all the momentum, the carriers are all pushing it as hard as they can.

    The only way we'll see a big surge in WP7 devices is if consumers are asking for it. And how can they ask for it if they don't know about it? That's why Nokia is so important. Finally there's a top-tier smartphone OEM putting WP7 on all their phones, including their flagship "halo" devices. It will be their business to sell WP7 phones, not just some afterthought.

    Also, now it makes sense why MS and Apple are suing the pants off all the Android OEMs. Google's strategy was to build an OS with IP ripped off from Apple, MS, and Sun, and then give it away for free so nobody else could compete with them. You can't blame MS for trying to level the playing field and wanting to get paid for the use of their patents.
    09-04-2011 10:09 AM
  13. Reflexx's Avatar
    No, too slowly is valid because they knew what everyone else had. iOS and Android have been around for 5 years or so now. MS dragged their heels with WM6.5 and launched WP7 well after iOS and Android with a LOT missing. It really only became decent and able to hold its own with NoDo.

    If they were a small startup, fair enough. But they're one of the biggest, richest companies in the world. If WP7 is to succeed they need to be on par or better right now, not in 6 months time. Mango addresses that to a large extent, but seriously - with pockets as deep as MS have, how did they let it take so long? Code may not pop out of thin air - but if you need more code, hire more coders.
    Software doesn't necessarily work like that.

    Often times, having too many coders on a project will hinder it. It depends on how many different areas are being worked on. And the likelihood of people making changes and enhancements in an area that could affect what someone else is working on.

    With a project like this, it is likely that underlying infrastructure for new features has to be fleshed out and tested before letting other people build on top of it. Having a bunch of extra coders waiting around does nothing.

    The speed that the OS has been built up is quite impressive. Saying they should have started earlier has nothing to do with how fast they have been working. Only when the start date was.

    I happen to believe that WP is already on par, and in some ways, better than the competition already. Does it support the sheer number of features as its main competitors right now? No. But if that is the metric that you use to judge "better", then WP may not be the choice for you at this time.

    I happen to love how what WP does so is implemented. I love the UI. I love the whole people/task-centric approach it takes, as opposed to being a app launcher.

    This OS isn't being designed to clone what's already out there. It's a different way of doing things. And they're not going to be able to have every feature or ability available out of the gate. But those features have been coming fast.
    Last edited by Winning Guy; 09-04-2011 at 12:05 PM.
    wolf1891 and Candide yams like this.
    09-04-2011 10:59 AM
  14. Reflexx's Avatar
    Sadly the only ones who seem to think they've actually have created something awesome are us, people who have got a WP7 device. Doesnt seem to be encouraging the kind of enthusiasm from oem's and carriers they are displaying for android.

    Let me ask, with Mango adding so many features is there any patricular reason OEM's should not be stepping up their game, in device design and promotion of their upcoming WP7 devices? Why is it that they seem so reluctant to even mention they make WP7 handsets, like it seems Samsung is? They make a sale either way so what's really going on?
    They are making money hand over fist with Android. Their only reason to experiment with WP in its infancy is to just become familiar with it in case it becomes popular.

    OEMs have no interest in promoting something that isn't already proven. They will focus on where the revenue stream is.

    Nobody cared about Android in the beginning. These things take a little time.
    09-04-2011 11:04 AM
  15. Dusteater's Avatar
    I wasn't really referring to the OS so much as the OEM hardware development. I would be perfectly satisfied with with NoDo, it is still hundreds of times better than my BlackBerry Tour running BBOS 5.

    Right now, it is all about devices. I am not sure why Nokia made their WP7 annoucement a year before they would have any product to show. It seems to me like a bad decision to give cunsomers so long a wait while you have nothing new to offer. I imagine they have lost a lot of customers during this time.

    But the biggest problem with getting devices, isn't Microsoft or even the OEM's. It's US carriers. Look at the HTC Radar and Titan. We know where they are headed in Europe, and yet no word on when they will ever be sold in the US. Microsoft really needs to work more with US carriers to convince them they need WP7 devices. Also, as others have said, they need to hear it from customers too.
    09-04-2011 11:29 AM
  16. wolf1891's Avatar
    Software doesn't necessarily work like that.

    Often times, having too many coders on a project will hinder it. It depends on how many different areas are being worked on. And the likelihood of people making changes and enhancements in an area that could affect what someone else is working on.

    With a project like this, it is likely that underlying infrastructure for new features has to be fleshed out and tested before letting other people build on top of it. Having a bunch of extra coders waiting around does nothing.

    The speed that the OS has been built up is quite impressive. Saying they should have started earlier has nothing to do with how fast they have been working. Only when the start date was.

    I happen to believe that WP is already on par, and in some ways, better than the competition already? Dora it support the sheer number of features as its main competitors right now? No. But if that is the metric that you use to judge "better", then WP may not be the choice for you at this time.

    I happen to love how what WP does so is implemented. I love the UI. I love the whole people/task-centric approach it takes, as opposed to being a app launcher.

    This OS isn't being designed to clone what's already out there. It's a different way of doing things. And they're not going to be able to have every feature or ability available out of the gate. But those features have been coming fast.
    okay, you said basically what I was TRYING to say in my post, you just said it better than I did. Thanks!
    09-04-2011 12:04 PM
  17. Reflexx's Avatar
    I agree that US carriers are a problem.

    Carriers will only change their ways if they are driven there by OEMs. And OEMs will only force it if they know that the other OEMs will also do it.

    Nokia used to be a huge and powerful force. Then they tried to work outside the carrier model. And look what happened to them.
    09-04-2011 12:11 PM
  18. foosball's Avatar
    I don't know if I'd say it's a conspiracy, it's just economics.
    Definitely follow the money. So how does $15 fee that Android OEM's forkover to MS fit into this?

    Sent from my HTC Arrive using Board Express
    09-04-2011 12:11 PM
  19. benjiprice's Avatar
    Agree with the title of the thread. I'm on android now and I want to switch to WP, but looking at what is available today and what we've seen until now for future devices, there's really nothing that I like. I'm not talking about specs because I know that doesn't matter that much, but most WP phones are just ugly. I don't like the new HTC's at all. I'm hoping Samsung can come out with something nice. I'd say the same for Nokia but it seems it's going to be a while til we see a WP from them, which actually seems really strange to me. I'd hope $1B would also buy some speed of handset development.

    All said, we might be close to a tipping point with WP. OEM's using Android are facing lawsuits from both Apple and MS. Samsung itself had to pull their 7.7" tablet from IFA after they had already announced it. Furthermore there's the GOOG+Moto deal. OEMs have to be reconsidering things.
    And I think there's actually a lot of latent demand for WP. A lot of people just don't know about it but it really seems like a good solution for less tech savvy people (not saying it's a bad solution for tech savvy ppl, just that android isn't a great solution for people like my mom).
    09-04-2011 12:20 PM
  20. smartpatrol's Avatar
    Definitely follow the money. So how does $15 fee that Android OEM's forkover to MS fit into this?
    AFAIK HTC is the only one paying MS a licensing fee for Android and it's only $5. Although recently MS asked Samsung for $15/device, and Samsung is trying to negotiate it down to "only" $10 in exchange for putting more focus (no pun intended) on MS products. I haven't heard anything since that news came out a couple months ago, not sure if it went into effect yet or what the final amount came to.

    But yeah that is a good point. MS would love to see the day when WP7 is actually LESS expensive and less risky than Android. And with Apple and Oracle very aggressively going after Android, it won't be long until that's the case. You have to wonder what companies like LG and Sony are going to do, given that their Android products are already unprofitable. . .
    09-04-2011 12:24 PM
  21. Reflexx's Avatar
    Hmmm... HTC is the only one paying a fee associated with Android so far. And out of the non-Nokia OEMs, they are putting the most focus on WP. Coincidence?
    09-04-2011 12:53 PM
  22. theefman's Avatar
    They are making money hand over fist with Android. Their only reason to experiment with WP in its infancy is to just become familiar with it in case it becomes popular.

    OEMs have no interest in promoting something that isn't already proven. They will focus on where the revenue stream is.

    Nobody cared about Android in the beginning. These things take a little time.
    Nobody cared about android until verizon came out with their droid campaign and made it popular. Then it grew exponentially and every oem jumped on board.

    If oem's are paying a license fee just to experiment with WP7 that is equivelent to throwing money away. Why pay a licence for something then make no effort whatsoever to get some kind of return from it? Experimenting in case it gets popular doesnt sound like a good reason to licence WP7.

    WP7 is unknown because no one is pushing it, not OEM's, not carriers and not Microsoft. Unless one of them is willing to take a chance get out there and tell people about WP7 you wont see demand, period.

    Conssumers have had it drummed into their heads for the last few years that the only smartphones worth buying are android and ios. If you dont tell them otherwise, cant expect them to choose otherwise.

    Sounds to me that if OEM's just want to follow the revenue stream they shouldnt have bothered licensing WP7 at all in the first place. Pointless being a WP7 handset maker if you dont make any handsets.
    09-04-2011 01:41 PM
  23. Pronk's Avatar
    okay... now I'm not really looking to defend MS on this topic but... as a programmer I kinda resented this particular statement of yours. First off, are you a programmer? Because if so then you should know that it's not just a case of throwing bodies behind keyboards to get results. Good code takes TIME to design, develop, and TEST. Extra coders can help (in certain areas) but, it's more important to have the few, BEST programmers you can find doing what they do best rather than lots of mediocre to average coders doing okay work that will then require tons more time in the testing and debugging phases.

    The mistake MS made was not in failing to develop this O/S fast enough, the mistake was letting the competition get several years head start before even beginning to develop a serious smartphone O/S option. In the little time they have had MS's WP7 development team has done a TON of great work. Would I like them to be even further along? Yes. But I also very much prefer that we have the smoothly functional and stable O/S that we have now rather than a buggy, clunky mess of an O/S that's likely to result when you rush too much and just bring in tons of extra coders to try and knock things out quickly. Better to take the extra time to do it right the first time even if it means not getting all of the features we want as soon as we'd like them.
    Time, yes - and this certainly wasn't an attack on coders. But they had time: they knew what their competitors had, they knew what they had to produce to stay on par, and yet the first version of WP7 was only half-baked. Some of that was likely due to in-house teams working on getting the interim WM6.5 OS polished up before moving on. That's where having more people comes in - not to have 1000s of folk trying to do the same job and ending up with a mess (I may not be a coder, but I've worked on big projects with lots of input and I know what a car crash they can be if poorly organised), but to do separate jobs simultaneously rather than having to get one thing done that everyone knew was a stop-gap before cracking on with something new. If MS needed to make two mobile OS teams to stay on par, or at least have more staff available so the teams they had weren't stretched too thin working on two OSs at once, well then that doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me - and they certainly had the money for it.

    As for the OEMs, that's most certainly about money - at the moment WP7 isn't a big enough market segment to be worth making a ton of handsets for. That's why a lot of WP7 handsets are externally - and internally for some parts - basically Android redesigns (like when they paint kids action figure toys a different colour and sell it as a new character). They're cheaper to develop and make, and the design costs are spread out. Which is what makes the Nokia efforts all the more interesting. WP7 is their key OS, not the backup plan. It'll be really fascinating to see what a handset maker can come out with when 100% of their focus is making hardware for specific software (and that route never did Apple any harm...).
    09-05-2011 03:56 AM
  24. Reflexx's Avatar
    Nobody cared about android until verizon came out with their droid campaign and made it popular. Then it grew exponentially and every oem jumped on board.

    If oem's are paying a license fee just to experiment with WP7 that is equivelent to throwing money away. Why pay a licence for something then make no effort whatsoever to get some kind of return from it? Experimenting in case it gets popular doesnt sound like a good reason to licence WP7.

    WP7 is unknown because no one is pushing it, not OEM's, not carriers and not Microsoft. Unless one of them is willing to take a chance get out there and tell people about WP7 you wont see demand, period.

    Conssumers have had it drummed into their heads for the last few years that the only smartphones worth buying are android and ios. If you dont tell them otherwise, cant expect them to choose otherwise.

    Sounds to me that if OEM's just want to follow the revenue stream they shouldnt have bothered licensing WP7 at all in the first place. Pointless being a WP7 handset maker if you dont make any handsets.
    It is advantageous for OEMs to understand how the OS works on their hardware. They also want to see what their customers who buy it are telling them. It is also always good to keep relationships with companies as big as Microsoft. There can be quite a few reasons for OEMs to offer WP devices even if they aren't yet committed to the platform.

    Also keep in mind that OEMs know that Nokia is betting 100% on WP. It would not be surprising to hear that a popular strategy is to let Nokia so all the had work of promoting WP while they ride the wave like what they did with Android when Motorola did all the heavy lifting.
    09-05-2011 06:13 AM
  25. Tobyus's Avatar
    The first generation of Windows Phones seemed to be Android retreads and cast-offs (LQ Quantum, really?), and even the best phone (Samsung Focus, which I have) shipped with only 8GB of storage and a SD card option that was troublesome at best and headache inducing at worst (as I and many others with SD card reset/erasing issues can attest to).
    I have to defend my Quantum. It is a solid device, and the keyboard works great. Having 16GB built-in storage has been nice, and I'd prefer that as opposed to having 8 GB with a possibility of adding more memory at the cost of the headaches you mentioned. The MFG tool is very useful for making registry tweaks (and it comes installed on the device!). Plus, the LG app store in the marketplace has several very useful apps.

    I hear what you are saying though, I think that the hardware overall for WP7 devices is weak compared to Android devices released around the same time. The crazy thing is, even with the lacking hardware, they still perform as well as Android devices with a lot more horsepower, and my Quantum has been the most stable smartphone I've ever used. My old Blackberry's had to have the battery pulled on a daily basis (sometimes multiple times per day). My father-in-law's iPhone 4 seems to have issues every time he visits. My mother-in-law's Android phone has had issues ever since she got it, and the Android tablet I borrowed for a weekend had to be rebooted almost every time I tried using the browser with Flash enabled.

    I would love to see what a Windows Phone with a dual core CPU and upgraded GPU + more memory could do. I can't imagine the UI getting any smoother, but I could see some improvement in the gaming department.
    09-05-2011 11:00 AM
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