09-10-2012 12:37 PM
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  1. X0LARIUM's Avatar
    I guess you missed the sarcasm tag at the end of my post?
    Oops...my bad.

    Sent from my DROID RaZr.
    09-07-2012 09:04 AM
  2. jimski's Avatar
    Who has actually said this phone is light? It's one of the heaviest phones out there.

    Lumia 920 - 185g and 10.7 mm thick

    You have people who have moved on to the GS3 or the One X from and iPhone 4S and have raved about how much more lighter they are than their 4S. And that's from a 7g-10g difference. Trust me it's quite noticeable. Can you imagine what a 52g difference would feel like?

    So let's be clear, the Lumia 920 is one heavy phone.
    Yeah, I know what 52g feels like. About the same weight as a pack (100 count) 3 x 3 Post-It notes. So all you (we) would be 920 owners out there, time to get in shape. Pick up that Post-It pad and start working out. Up, down, up, down. Three sets of ten reps a day should do it. And for those with lightweight phones, just hold a Post-It pad in the same hand to see if you have the strength to handle such a beast. Maybe its time for some Wheaties.

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
    theefman, cckgz4, Reflexx and 3 others like this.
    09-07-2012 09:15 AM
  3. jimski's Avatar
    Please keep emotions out of this discussion as it leads nowhere.

    .
    Ok, so emotions are off limits, but subjective jabbering is just fine. Got it. Here is some more then. Regardless of all the things that makes Nokia's WP8 offerings undesirable devices, they will outsell their WP8 competitors by at least 3-1. And that's good for Windows Phone.

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
    theefman and cckgz4 like this.
    09-07-2012 09:25 AM
  4. Old_Cus's Avatar
    I just don’t understand the negative attitudes that are being displayed here. From what I saw Wednesday this is what Nokia did:

    They improved the ram.
    They improved the memory.
    They improved the screen.
    They improved the processor.
    They improved the camera.
    They improved the battery.
    They added NFC.
    They added wireless charging.
    They improved the display.
    They increased the color choices.
    They improved Nokia drive, maps and city lens.

    And even with all these improvements people are still complaining? As far as I am concerned Nokia has done their job. To me the only question left is did MS do their job with WP8?

    People preferences are subjective. We like what we like for whatever reason. If someone likes Samsung or HTC better that’s great, get what you want. Trying to call Nokia out for failing to do enough with the 920 is pure non-sense.
    09-07-2012 02:54 PM
  5. wolf1891's Avatar
    I just dont understand the negative attitudes that are being displayed here. From what I saw Wednesday this is what Nokia did:

    They improved the ram.
    They improved the memory.
    They improved the screen.
    They improved the processor.
    They improved the camera.
    They improved the battery.
    They added NFC.
    They added wireless charging.
    They improved the display.
    They increased the color choices.
    They improved Nokia drive, maps and city lens.

    And even with all these improvements people are still complaining? As far as I am concerned Nokia has done their job. To me the only question left is did MS do their job with WP8?

    People preferences are subjective. We like what we like for whatever reason. If someone likes Samsung or HTC better thats great, get what you want. Trying to call Nokia out for failing to do enough with the 920 is pure non-sense.
    some people just refuse to be satisfied I guess... oh well, their loss...
    snowmutt likes this.
    09-07-2012 03:16 PM
  6. Reflexx's Avatar
    Because is heavy does not mean the phone isn't light? The things people will say to defend a phone they haven't held in their arms.

    The proof is there, the Lumia 920 is heavier than the new standard. The ATIV is actually lighter than the GS3.

    Point Samsung.
    Point Samsung... if you want a lighter phone.

    Point Nokia if you want a solid feeling phone.

    It's downright silly to try to state that one is better than the other in terms of weight. It's completely a matter of personal preference.

    It's like trying to argue that blue is better than orange. It's completely irrational.
    snowmutt likes this.
    09-07-2012 03:19 PM
  7. Bentstraight's Avatar
    Point Samsung... if you want a lighter phone.

    Point Nokia if you want a solid feeling phone.

    It's downright silly to try to state that one is better than the other in terms of weight. It's completely a matter of personal preference.

    It's like trying to argue that blue is better than orange. It's completely irrational.
    Blue is better if you were painting a picture of a sky on a sunny clear mid morning day. See what I mean? It all depends on the situation. It's logical to think that most would want their MOBILE device to be lighter (not saying lightest) rather than heavier. Now if you were building an anchor then heavy would be better. Again, it's all about the purpose. It would not be unreasonable to say that in general, people want a lighter and thinner (not saying lightest and thinnest) mobile device. That is what the sales number would indicate as well. People don't care to have their phone built like a tank to last 10 years. Most people upgrade every 2 to 4 years max.
    Most of us put cases on our phones, there's no disputing that. So if you bring a phone to market that is already thick and heavy, you have an even thicker and heavier phone when you put on the case.
    When I discuss any of the new WP8 phones, I give my opinion on what I think the GENERAL BUYING PUBLIC would think based off current sales numbers of existing devices. Some here seem to think just because they like a heavy phone, the general public will like one. You just can't do that. Best thing is to look at what the market is doing. Then assess from there. Another example, people here go on about pureview, but guess what? The general buying public doesn't care about pureview because they don't even know what it is. They can't feel it or see it when they are looking at the phone on display. All they know is what they are holding in their hand and how it looks and feels.
    09-07-2012 06:11 PM
  8. Reflexx's Avatar
    Blue is better if you were painting a picture of a sky on a sunny clear mid morning day. See what I mean? It all depends on the situation. It's logical to think that most would want their MOBILE device to be lighter (not saying lightest) rather than heavier. Now if you were building an anchor then heavy would be better.
    You can't be serious. Unless your arms are smaller than spaghetti noodles, or your legs and hips can't take the weight of something lighter than a belt, there should be no issue rather than just personal preference.

    Again, it's all about the purpose.
    It is PREFERENCE, not purpose. Unless your purpose is to win a Lighter Phone Contest. Or if you have the spaghetti arms mentioned above.

    My nephew is 1 yr old. He plays with Fisher Price toy phones that are probably 3 or 4 times as heavy as the 920. But maybe he's just unusually strong? :lol:

    It would not be unreasonable to say that in general, people want a lighter and thinner (not saying lightest and thinnest) mobile device. That is what the sales number would indicate as well. People don't care to have their phone built like a tank to last 10 years. Most people upgrade every 2 to 4 years max.
    You said a key word there. WANT. That's preference.

    Why the heck does anyone have a problem with a lot of us liking sturdier phones? Why do you feel it's necessary to have to convince us that we're wrong for having a different opinion?

    I mean, really? REALLY?

    Also, if you look at Windows Phone sales, Nokia has clearly dominated. It's not even close. This despite the fact that the 900 is a sturdy phone.

    Most of us put cases on our phones, there's no disputing that. So if you bring a phone to market that is already thick and heavy, you have an even thicker and heavier phone when you put on the case.
    And that's up the the preference of that individual. Why do you care what their preference is.

    With a sturdy phone, I'd put a light case, or no case at all.

    With a flimsy phone, I'd put a sturdier case.

    It's great that we have choices.

    When I discuss any of the new WP8 phones, I give my opinion on what I think the GENERAL BUYING PUBLIC would think based off current sales numbers of existing devices.
    Then get an iPhone. That single phone is what the general buying public is getting in droves.

    Some here seem to think just because they like a heavy phone, the general public will like one.
    No. They think that there are a lot of people that like sturdy phones.

    Most will also agree that there are a lot of people that like light phones.

    It's one of the strengths of the ecosystem. People can choose the phone that suits them best.

    And guess what? Up to this point, in this ecosystem, it's been Nokia.

    Does that mean you have to choose Nokia? Of course not.

    But geez. Stop hating.

    If Samsung is successful, I'll be one of the people cheering them. If HTC is successful, I'll cheer them too even though I personally will not buy an HTC device ever again.

    You just can't do that. Best thing is to look at what the market is doing. Then assess from there.
    But you guys aren't "assessing." You're making emphatic statements that one preference is "better" than another. It doesn't work that way.

    My preference is my preference. Your preference is your preference.

    It's perfectly legitimate for you to say you hate the weight of the 920. More power to you.

    But you don't speak for everybody. And I haven't heard of an election where you were chosen to represent the "majority".

    Another example, people here go on about pureview, but guess what? The general buying public doesn't care about pureview because they don't even know what it is. They can't feel it or see it when they are looking at the phone on display. All they know is what they are holding in their hand and how it looks and feels.
    So? That means we can't like PureView? That means that it's not a real benefit?

    It's up to Nokia to market the **** out of it.

    But if they don't... so? Then people will automatically flee to lighter phones because nobody wants a solid feeling phone?

    I guess the Lumia 900 outsold the Focus S and HTC Titan II combined because of PureView, right?
    theefman likes this.
    09-07-2012 06:39 PM
  9. Bentstraight's Avatar
    You can't be serious. Unless your arms are smaller than spaghetti noodles, or your legs and hips can't take the weight of something lighter than a belt, there should be no issue rather than just personal preference.



    It is PREFERENCE, not purpose. Unless your purpose is to win a Lighter Phone Contest. Or if you have the spaghetti arms mentioned above.

    My nephew is 1 yr old. He plays with Fisher Price toy phones that are probably 3 or 4 times as heavy as the 920. But maybe he's just unusually strong? :lol:



    You said a key word there. WANT. That's preference.

    Why the heck does anyone have a problem with a lot of us liking sturdier phones? Why do you feel it's necessary to have to convince us that we're wrong for having a different opinion?

    I mean, really? REALLY?

    Also, if you look at Windows Phone sales, Nokia has clearly dominated. It's not even close. This despite the fact that the 900 is a sturdy phone.



    And that's up the the preference of that individual. Why do you care what their preference is.

    With a sturdy phone, I'd put a light case, or no case at all.

    With a flimsy phone, I'd put a sturdier case.

    It's great that we have choices.



    Then get an iPhone. That single phone is what the general buying public is getting in droves.



    No. They think that there are a lot of people that like sturdy phones.

    Most will also agree that there are a lot of people that like light phones.

    It's one of the strengths of the ecosystem. People can choose the phone that suits them best.

    And guess what? Up to this point, in this ecosystem, it's been Nokia.

    Does that mean you have to choose Nokia? Of course not.

    But geez. Stop hating.

    If Samsung is successful, I'll be one of the people cheering them. If HTC is successful, I'll cheer them too even though I personally will not buy an HTC device ever again.



    But you guys aren't "assessing." You're making emphatic statements that one preference is "better" than another. It doesn't work that way.

    My preference is my preference. Your preference is your preference.

    It's perfectly legitimate for you to say you hate the weight of the 920. More power to you.

    But you don't speak for everybody. And I haven't heard of an election where you were chosen to represent the "majority".



    So? That means we can't like PureView? That means that it's not a real benefit?

    It's up to Nokia to market the **** out of it.

    But if they don't... so? Then people will automatically flee to lighter phones because nobody wants a solid feeling phone?

    I guess the Lumia 900 outsold the Focus S and HTC Titan II combined because of PureView, right?

    Wow, so much anger. For some reason you're having a problem with reading comprehension. Please show me in my post where I said YOU must by what I say. Show me where I say YOU can't like heavy a phone. Show me where I say YOU can't like purview. Show me where I say YOU can't have YOUR PREFERENCE.

    Explain to me how it's wrong to look at Sales trends to determine what sells.
    And please stop using Apple as an example. They don't fit in the typical model. They have a fan base that is a breed of their own. They sell a phone that has a 3.5 inch screen with inferior hardware and recycled a design that was EXACTLY the same looking phone (4 to 4S). No other OEM can do this right now and get away with that. Do you seriously think Samsung, HTC, Nokia or any other OEM can do this and get away with it. Not a chance.

    As the OP said, keep emotions out of it, it gets you nowhere. Please use logic in your discussion. Take your time reading other people's post and stop putting words in their mouths they never said. Again, nowhere in my post did I tell YOU what to buy and prefer. I'm assessing the general buying public based off current phone sales. Again, don't look at Apple, they don't fit. Nobody is saying that the Lumia is so heavy you can't pick it up. I'm sure you can pick up 10lbs, but how do you think a 10lb ultrabook would sell and how do you think it would stand up to the competition that it's sitting on the shelf with. Starting to get the picture now? Stop building your strawman, it's a waste of time.
    09-07-2012 07:18 PM
  10. Reflexx's Avatar
    Wow, so much anger. For some reason you're having a problem with reading comprehension. Please show me in my post where I said YOU must by what I say. Show me where I say YOU can't like heavy a phone. Show me where I say YOU can't like purview. Show me where I say YOU can't have YOUR PREFERENCE.
    I'm not angry, and I can read just fine.

    But since you were responding to my comment on someone else's quote, defending his statement, then it is a logical assumption that you agree with the statement he made.

    And that statement was rather broad based.

    Also, the fact that you are arguing that this is NOT a matter of preference is a statement that you're saying what is or is not "better."

    Explain to me how it's wrong to look at Sales trends to determine what sells.
    And please stop using Apple as an example. They don't fit in the typical model.
    lol.

    Look at sales trends!

    I mean, don't look at sales trends!

    Like WP is typical.

    :lol:

    They have a fan base that is a breed of their own. They sell a phone that has a 3.5 inch screen with inferior hardware and recycled a design that was EXACTLY the same looking phone (4 to 4S). No other OEM can do this right now and get away with that. Do you seriously think Samsung, HTC, Nokia or any other OEM can do this and get away with it. Not a chance.
    They have a compelling ecosystem. They started that ecosystem when others were only thinking about individual phones and operating systems.

    They have stellar marketing.

    Their success isn't an accident.

    As the OP said, keep emotions out of it, it gets you nowhere. Please use logic in your discussion
    And it's illogical to tell someone what is "better" as a definitive statement, as Winterfang regularly does and you jumped in to back up.

    Take your time reading other people's post and stop putting words in their mouths they never said. Again, nowhere in my post did I tell YOU what to buy and prefer. I'm assessing the general buying public based off current phone sales.
    No you're not. You are piling on Nokia and nit picking why you think their phone sucks. And then saying that most people will feel that way.

    Again, don't look at Apple, they don't fit.
    Sure they do.

    Nobody is saying that the Lumia is so heavy you can't pick it up. I'm sure you can pick up 10lbs, but how do you think a 10lb ultrabook would sell and how do you think it would stand up to the competition that it's sitting on the shelf with. Starting to get the picture now? Stop building your strawman, it's a waste of time.
    What straw man? The weight argument didn't make sense based on Lumia sales, plain and simple. Making stuff up and calling it truth doesn't change that.
    09-07-2012 07:55 PM
  11. Bentstraight's Avatar
    What straw man? The weight argument didn't make sense based on Lumia sales, plain and simple. Making stuff up and calling it truth doesn't change that.
    Ok what strawman you ask? Here you go:
    You can't be serious. Unless your arms are smaller than spaghetti noodles, or your legs and hips can't take the weight of something lighter than a belt, there should be no issue rather than just personal preference.

    My nephew is 1 yr old. He plays with Fisher Price toy phones that are probably 3 or 4 times as heavy as the 920. But maybe he's just unusually strong?
    So again, let me ask, please show me where I said the Lumia 920 would be too heavy to pick up and that you would require unusual streangth to carry around?
    Also please answer my question regarding Ultrabooks. I asked you:
    How do you think an Ultrabook that weighs as much as 10lbs fair against other Ultrabooks currently on the market. We both know any child in elementary school can pick up 10lbs, but how do you think it would do on a shelf where it's sitting next to other Ultrabooks currently on market that weigh well under 4lbs. Ultrabooks are MOBILE devices like smartphones. So I guess we should keep them heavy as 10 lbs so that people think they FEEL SOLID, as people have no problem picking up 10lbs.
    09-07-2012 08:16 PM
  12. AngryNil's Avatar
    820 is a non-starter for me due to its screen. 920 still looks good but I still want to see a few things:
    • Pure image quality in a well lit environment
    • How good the FFC is, Nokia highlighted it on the 900 but not on the 920
    • How manageable the device is, being as large as the One X and considerably heavier
    09-07-2012 08:23 PM
  13. Reflexx's Avatar
    Ok what strawman you ask? Here you go:
    That was called light hearted sarcastic humor.

    I really didnt think you would take it literally.

    Are you telling me that you took it as a literal argument?

    So again, let me ask, please show me where I said the Lumia 920 would be too heavy to pick up and that you would require unusual streangth to carry around?
    LoL

    I guess you did.

    Also please answer my question regarding Ultrabooks. I asked you:
    How do you think an Ultrabook that weighs as much as 10lbs fair against other Ultrabooks currently on the market. We both know any child in elementary school can pick up 10lbs, but how do you think it would do on a shelf where it's sitting next to other Ultrabooks currently on market that weigh well under 4lbs. Ultrabooks are MOBILE devices like smartphones. So I guess we should keep them heavy as 10 lbs so that people think they FEEL SOLID, as people have no problem picking up 10lbs.
    Are you literally comparing something that's several pounds and can really make someone tired, with a few grams?

    See, I actually thought you weren't being serious.

    I'm still not completely sure.
    09-07-2012 08:25 PM
  14. Bentstraight's Avatar
    That was called light hearted sarcastic humor.

    I really didnt think you would take it literally.

    Are you telling me that you took it as a literal argument?



    LoL

    I guess you did.



    Are you literally comparing something that's several pounds and can really make someone tired, with a few grams?

    See, I actually thought you weren't being serious.

    I'm still not completely sure.

    That's what I thought. Thanks.
    09-07-2012 08:27 PM
  15. Winterfang's Avatar
    I was very excited for the 800, I expected a lower resolution but a great amoled screen and the same camera.

    I don't know much about the camera but is supposed to be a 5mega pixel one (probably just a tad better than the 710). I'm sad by this because I don't like how the 920 looks, I prefer the rounder edges of the 820 and taking covers out is cool.
    09-07-2012 08:30 PM
  16. dreester's Avatar
    My thoughts on the Lumia's

    920
    + PureView
    + Super sensitive touch
    + Display
    + Wireless charging
    - Size
    - Weight
    ? No microSD - 32GB is enough?

    820
    + Size
    + Super sensitve touch
    + Exchangeable covers
    + Replaceable battery
    + MicroSD
    + Display - I'm ok with the 'old' screen and resolution
    + Wireless charging
    ? Weight
    ? 1650mAh battery - we'll have to wait for reviews
    ? No Gorilla Glass - you can use your nails or keys on the screen, but will it scratch easily?
    snowmutt likes this.
    09-08-2012 03:41 AM
  17. AngryNil's Avatar
    Let's discuss whether you think Nokia has done enough with their new 820/920 to grab the NEW customers they need to get WP8 growing and to stop them from becoming extinct.
    Yes.
    snowmutt likes this.
    09-08-2012 04:45 AM
  18. mmacleodbrown's Avatar
    Let's discuss whether you think Nokia has done enough with their new 820/920 to grab the NEW customers they need to get WP8 growing and to stop them from becoming extinct.
    I have posted elsewhere here, but as a high end GS3 user and 4 yrs of android, Im switching. Funny enough it was installing W8, office 2013 this week that made me think about it, if these new phones were coming out with WP7.8 and there was no WP8, I wouldn't even consider it...

    For what it is worth, I think Win8 and the Microsoft surface will drive a lot of sales for WP8 once you start using W8, a WP8 device sort of makes sense and I can remember swearing Id never buy another MS mobile device after WM6.5!!
    09-08-2012 05:07 AM
  19. poiman's Avatar
    PureView Rear Camera (great image stabilization and low light photos), HD Front Facing Camera, PureMotionHD+ Screen (super sensitive display and more PPI than any other phone out there) and Nokia Exclusive Apps (City Lens, Transport, Pulse, Music, etc) plus Nokia superb support to the Windows Phone platform are the reasons why Lumia 920 will be the best Windows Phone this year.
    KingCrimson likes this.
    09-08-2012 07:58 AM
  20. KingCrimson's Avatar
    A note - the 820 has Gorilla Glass 2.
    09-08-2012 11:20 AM
  21. jaj324's Avatar
    Vote for Romney:)
    Couple of points. The L900 was released in April, so the design has only been out 5 months, not a year. And both phones are different enough from their predecessors to not be confused. Second, all I read about a few months ago was how much the Nokia Lumia camera sucked, and was a show stopper. Now, a camera is not that important? What a difference a season makes.

    At the end of the day, you go to the store (or online) and buy the phone of your choice. Everyone has different needs. But knocking phones on the same platform, the platform you (generalizing here, nothing personal) prefer, is bull****. Tell me what you like about your choice, but don't tell me why I shouldn't buy my "choice". And please don't tell me who to vote for either.

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro

    Sent from my PI86100 using Board Express
    09-08-2012 11:59 AM
  22. eruptflail's Avatar
    I don't think Nokia has any problems with the form factor, because a LOT of people really liked it, myself included. However, I think the biggest problem is the fact that it's too hard to decide between the two phones. If you've decided you want a WP8 device, then the Nokia phones are definitely at the top of the list. Unless there is a very distinct price difference, I can't see how I'll be able to decide what phone I want. Each has pros the other doesn't. The 920 has the fantastic camera and screen, while the 820 has a sleeker form and interchangeable backs and removable memory and battery.

    The biggest problem, however, is the fact that they are both the same phone inside. Same RAM and Chipset- it makes it hard to weigh the pros and cons, and as such their presentation failed because they failed to release carriers, prices, and release dates - some important deciding factors.
    09-08-2012 01:58 PM
  23. Duvi's Avatar
    Please keep emotions out of this discussion as it leads nowhere. Nowhere did I say what YOU should buy. I was giving my assessment on Nokia's situation. This is a forum to share our opinions.
    In regards to your point on people complaining the camera sucked on the 900, it's called a loud minority. You know like the loud minority that cries about how Android is fragmented and updates are few and far between. Yet Android is activating 1.3 Million devices a day. Or how about the loud minority that swears Samsung devices are cheap feeling plastic phones that look uninspiring, yet the GS3 has sold over 20 Million phones in 100 days.
    So you see, I want to keep this discussion void of emotions. Let's discuss whether you think Nokia has done enough with their new 820/920 to grab the NEW customers they need to get WP8 growing and to stop them from becoming extinct.
    Working in the industry... John & Jane Doe do come in asking for the best camera.

    You know how many EVO 4G LTE I've sold because of the camera? I'll go in the camera app and put it on burst mode and just like that "I'll take that".

    Or the amount of folks that go with the iPhone 4S over the iPhone 4 because of the 3MP difference. Although MP doesn't mean much, people still believe it does. In the case of the 4S and 4, it's a better lens accompanied with the increased MP.
    hc_1540 likes this.
    09-08-2012 02:59 PM
  24. dreester's Avatar
    A note - the 820 has Gorilla Glass 2.
    Please, do you have a source?

    If you look at the specs below, gorilla glass is only found the 920 specs page
    Nokia Lumia 920 Specifications - Nokia
    Nokia Lumia 820 Specifications - Nokia

    Also on the Corning website there is no mention of the 820, only the 920
    CORNING GORILLA GLASS | NOKIA
    09-08-2012 03:18 PM
  25. Flan Tamarind's Avatar
    This entire announcement was a mixed bag. Elop really screwed the turkey by saying all of WP8 would be talked about. REALLY got my hopes up and was extremely dissappointed to check WP Central at the end of the day after forcing myself into a media blackout at work. I even removed the WP app from my homescreen as well as engadget to let myself be completely taken aback. Sadly, this did not occur thanks to leaks in the days prior to the event.

    The 920 is gorgeous. Everything about the phone screams top of the line. You all know the specs, but their advancements in camera technology, their display improvements over CB+, and the touch screen enhancements from Synaptics make the 920, and by some extension the 820, great devices.

    The 920 itself has a very attractive body. I hear alot of people saying "Oh it's just like the 900". Firstly, it's is not exactly the same by any stretch. If you want to get technical, the design of the 900 stretches back over a 16 or so months to the launch of the Nokia N9, which shared an identical shape to the Lumia 800. To say that the 920 is a rehashed design is foolish at best. The 920 is a supreme device and I can't wait to read reviews gushing over it.

    The 820, while an attractive device, is a fail. It shares nothing in common with the Lumia 800. It's larger, thicker, flat-glassed, and not a true unibody design as the 920 is. Honestly, the first thing that came to mind when I saw the 820 was my HD7. It's nearly identical in form factor, screen size, and resolution. Winterfang failed hard to say this is a LOW END device. That is hardly the case. This is a SOLID mid-range device. That being said, I can handle the lack of PureView. I can't handle the lack of an HD screen. This, in my eyes, is unacceptable. I was looking forward to 3 devices to be announced: successors to the L900,L800,and L710. Instead, Nokia decided that they couldn't decide what to put in a low-end only device and merged the low and mid-range into one device. My heart sank at the legacy resolution.
    09-08-2012 03:48 PM
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