No Quad-Core WP8 This Fall

[a5cent]

I am not doubting that the S4 snapdragon DC is better than the tegra3 QC. But I will bet that the S4 pro is much faster than the S4 DC in that test. I thought I mentioned in this thread that architectures had to be the same, but that must have been the other thread talking about similar topic.

Yes, absolutely. Two different architectures. Obviously, I also agree that the 4c Krait will be faster than the 2c Krait, provided we get apps that actually know how to make use of those extra cores (a big "if"). It must be that way, since all the Krait cores are exactly the same. BUT! The 4c Kraits use twice the transistors and have almost twice the power envelope of the 2c Kraits. Qualcomm recommends against using the 4c Krait SoCs in smartphones for exactly that reason. It's also why none of the 4c Kraits come with built in radios... they're WiFi only, intended for use in tablets that can provide sufficiently large batteries to power them.

Of course, that won't stop manufacturers from trying to put them in a smartphone anyway (having four cores sells). And luckily, they will get away with it, for the obvious reason that those two extra cores will almost never get fired up and thus never draw power for any notable amount of time.

Assuming the purely hypothetical scenario, where all of us started installing web-servers or started doing CGI rendering on our smartphones, that house of cards would come tumbling down pretty fast and manufacturers know it. Obviously, manufacturers need a way out of that sticky situation should it ever crop up anywhere, and their solution is simple: add a "feature" allowing you to turn those two extra cores off completely. So, you get the bragging rights for having four cores, but only as long as you never find a way to actually use them, at which point you will be turning them off (unless you are happy with three to four hours of battery life per charge).

Despite all that, one good reason remains to get a 4c Krait based WP device, namely the Adreno 320 GPU that comes with it. It is far superior to the Adreno 225, but that is another topic entirely.

Of course, should we ever get smartphone batteries that are capable of driving a 4c Krait "on all cylinders" for any reasonable amount of time, then any CPU designer worth their salt will be able to take that same amount of transistors (as used by a 4c Krait) and invest them into a new 2c CPU design, a new CPU architecture if you will, that will easily keep up with the 4c Krait, with the added benefit of being much faster with apps that use two or less threads. That's simply a repeat of the situation I refereed to in my last post, but with the 4c Krait taking the place of the 4c Tegra3.

You understand what I'm getting at?

 

[power5]

Of course and it makes sense and is the same in x86 land. DC of the next architecture (not SB vs IB which just changed process size) is usually at least as fast as the QC of the previous gen. But what usually happens is they do not get the same binning. By the end of the process the binning is much better and the chips are capable of running faster and faster clocks at the same voltage. So it is not unusual for the early chips to require much more power and thus conversely heat to reach the same clocks as the later binned chips. So, you can either take a higher binned QC krait and take some power away from it, and turn the speed down a few hundred mhz and have the same TDP as the first gen S4 DC Krait. Obviously the single threaded win will go to the DC with faster clock, but the multi threaded win will of course go to the QC. And in the end, it used the same power as the DC because its a better piece of silicon vs the immature DC. Now of course the DC chips will get better and better as the process matures as well. So a mature process DC will have lower TDP than the same maturity QC and we are right back to what you said. Best option for QC is to throttle it way way down when not being used and the standby time should be the same as the DC. Then when its needed it throttles up. No need to have manual user interaction with the number of cores running, Qualcomm should be able to make that an automatic part of the bios in the chipset bios.

 

[independentvolume]

Unless playing intense games, I think an 8s will handle day to day tasks as good as an 8x. This isn't jumbled android were trying to run, it's streamlined wp8.

 

[PG2G]

Despite all that, one good reason remains to get a 4c Krait based WP device, namely the Adreno 320 GPU that comes with it. That is far superior to the Adreno 225, but that is another topic entirely.

There is a dual core variant of the S4 Pro also, which I think is what will be powering some of the WinRT tablets.

 

[CSJr1]

It's also why none of the 4c Kraits come with built in radios... they're WiFi only, intended for use in tablets that can provide sufficiently large batteries to power them.

Qualcomm confirms S4 Snapdragon Pro SoC in LG Optimus G | ZDNet

"In addition to this, the S4 Pro supports cameras up to 20 megapixel, and includes 3 camera support and stereoscopic 3D capture support. On top of that, the S4 Pro will allow seamless toggling between 3G, 4G and LTE networks, reducing dropped calls when on the move, a feature that is exclusive to the S4 Pro."

 

[a5cent]

It's also why none of the 4c Kraits come with built in radios... they're WiFi only, intended for use in tablets that can provide sufficiently large batteries to power them.

Qualcomm confirms S4 Snapdragon Pro SoC in LG Optimus G | ZDNet

"In addition to this, the S4 Pro supports cameras up to 20 megapixel, and includes 3 camera support and stereoscopic 3D capture support. On top of that, the S4 Pro will allow seamless toggling between 3G, 4G and LTE networks, reducing dropped calls when on the move, a feature that is exclusive to the S4 Pro."

Okay ebsn, I'll take you up on this one. You're obviously implying that Qualcomm's Krait based quad-core SoC (the author of the article you've linked to mistakenly calls it the S4 Pro) comes with built in radios and is thus targeted at smartphones. I apologize in advance if I've misread your intent, but otherwise I have this advice to offer:

Don't rely on tech bloggers. Most make more mistakes in a single article than you will in a lifetime. The author of the article you've linked to is apparently one of these "unprofessionals", as he constantly confuses marketing labels (used by Qualcomm to segment their product offerings) with actual SoC's. I'll use the quote you supplied as an example:

"On top of that, the S4 Pro will allow seamless toggling between 3G, 4G and LTE networks"

As I mentioned, the term "S4 Pro" actually refers to a group of SoC's. The "MSM8960 Pro" is one of the SoCs in that group, and it does exactly what you've quoted. However, it is not the quad-core SoC the author mistakenly thinks it is. The only quad-core SoC in the the S4 Pro lineup is the APQ8064, which comes without radios because it is targeted solely at tablets, just like I said.

The author confuses himself into that same mistake over and over again throughout the article. Instead of dissecting it point for point, I'll just give you the facts:

The LG Optimus G is based on two separate pieces of silicon:
1) Qualcomm APQ8064 (quad-core Krait SoC without radios, not intended for use in smartphones)
2) Qualcomm MDM9615 (LTE baseband modem)

Here is a somewhat more respectable/reliable source on the LG Optimus G. Here is a spec sheet directly from Qualcomm with a high level overview of their S4 lineup.

 

[a5cent]

There is a dual core variant of the S4 Pro also, which I think is what will be powering some of the WinRT tablets.

I haven't heard that yet. It's certainly possible, but I would be surprised because tablets that include modems (which dual-core S4 Pro's do) are usually of the high-end variety, and those I would expect to come with a high resolution display that really shouldn't be driven by an Adreno 225.

I'm expecting all Windows RT tablets using Qualcomm silicon to be built around the APQ8064, but that is just a guess.

 

[a5cent]

Best option for QC is to throttle it way way down when not being used and the standby time should be the same as the DC. Then when its needed it throttles up. No need to have manual user interaction with the number of cores running, Qualcomm should be able to make that an automatic part of the bios in the chipset bios.

No. This "feature" has nothing to do with standby time. Qualcomm has that more ore less covered. The ability to turn those two extra cores off is included due to issues with power draw under full load. Should anyone actually have an app that is able to saturate all four cores, then the smartphones battery won't last long enough to be considered useful. The SoC obviously shouldn't power down under full load, but you will be given the ability to shut two cores down anyway.... in the interest of getting acceptable battery life. Of course this will be sold as a feature, which is kind of comical.

Of course and it makes sense and is the same in x86 land.

Okay, I'll take your word for it... ...even though your views are centered around process maturity, clock frequencies and binning which are certainly important issues, but not relevant to the argument I'm making. I will dispute one thing though:

Not much about mobile ARM CPU's is the same as in x86 land! Like I said... Intel targets the largest possible die-size they can economically mass produce, and cut away cores and cache to get to cheaper SKU's from there. That is why x86 CPUs with fewer cores are always cheaper, always have less transistors and always have a lower TDP (that is precisely why they exist as a CPU in the first place). None of that applies to ARM CPU's. Using the same manufacturing process, and given the same power restrictions (a.k.a the same transistor budget), two and four core designs will have similar prices, similar TDPs and similar overall performance (provided apps can use all four cores). Hitting different price points with mobile ARM CPU's is achieved by paring them with different GPUs, including modems, and of course binning... that last point is really the only similarity to the x86 world.

 

[power5]

Thanks for the chip list. Thats great.
Got any picture links of the S4 silicon, I cannot find any? I just don't see why ARMs would not be able to laser cut bad areas or just deactivate them in the chip bios.

 

[PG2G]

I haven't heard that yet. It's certainly possible, but I would be surprised because tablets that include modems (which dual-core S4 Pro's do) are usually of the high-end variety, and those I would expect to come with a high resolution display that really shouldn't be driven by an Adreno 225.

I'm expecting all Windows RT tablets using Qualcomm silicon to be built around the APQ8064, but that is just a guess.

Both the Samsung Ativ Tab and a Dell tablet are using Snapdragon S4. Though you might be right and it is not a Pro. Can't find any details

 

[power5]

I haven't heard that yet. It's certainly possible, but I would be surprised because tablets that include modems (which dual-core S4 Pro's do) are usually of the high-end variety, and those I would expect to come with a high resolution display that really shouldn't be driven by an Adreno 225.

I'm expecting all Windows RT tablets using Qualcomm silicon to be built around the APQ8064, but that is just a guess.

S4 pro use 320 according to your link. Qual really needs to get some USB3.0 support on their silicon. Not so much for data but for power. Will make charging a good bit faster.

 

[1jaxstate1]

I'm all for specs, but why in the name of anything sane, would you need a quad core processor in a cell phone. Are we doing full blown video editing, CAD, and full photoshop now?

That angry bird game is gonna look fantastic!!!! /s

 

[X0LARIUM]

Hate to be the devil's advocate...but I'm smelling a plan.

Phase 1: WP7 - Testing waters

Phase 2: WP8 - first step towards providing "proper" specs

Phase 3: WP9 - Real/Actual smartphone OS that tramples the competition...everything we expect in a high-end WP smartphone we get here:
heXa-core processor
2GB RAM
Holographic Chat
Controlling interplanetary bodies and ability to see the future.
All of it.

And, putting my life at stake from Snipers prowling this forum, I dare to say, a Surface Phone is what I'm point at...


Sent from my RaZr HD.

 

[power5]

I'm all for specs, but why in the name of anything sane, would you need a quad core processor in a cell phone. Are we doing full blown video editing, CAD, and full photoshop now?

That angry bird game is gonna look fantastic!!!! /s

To be honest, a current ARM quad is still no where even close in this universe to being able to do full blown 1080p video editing and compiling. CAD and photoshop also don't have a chance. These programs all stress top of the line desktop systems and a quad ARM at 1.5ghz is about equal to the absolute lowest rung on the x86 ladder.

This is why i think we do need as many cores as we can cram into the TDP and package size. To get closer and closer to desktop capabilities. Until then we will still just have media and social consumption devices in our pockets.

 

[a5cent]

Sorry guys, apparently post #47 was easily misunderstood. We too really need to stop using the term "S4 Pro" which is just a category...

<snipped>
I'm expecting all Windows RT tablets using Qualcomm silicon to be built around the APQ8064, but that is just a guess.

Both the Samsung Ativ Tab and a Dell tablet are using Snapdragon S4. Though you might be right and it is not a Pro. Can't find any details

But the APQ8064 is a S4 Pro? I'll say it differently. I'm expecting all high-end Windows RT tablets, that are built around Qualcomm silicon and include radios, to include the same components as the LG Optimus G, i.e. an APQ8064 (S4 Pro with Adreno 320) and the MDM9615 (LTE baseband modem).

S4 pro use 320 according to your link. Qual really needs to get some USB3.0 support on their silicon. Not so much for data but for power. Will make charging a good bit faster.

Absolutely agree with the USB statement! Yes, all S4 Pros include the Adreno 320. Sorry for any confusion I likely caused.

 

[a5cent]

This is why i think we do need as many cores as we can cram into the TDP and package size.

Sorry for belaboring the point power5, but I'm going to bug you one last time...

You want "as many cores as we can cram into the TDP and package size". How many do you want? 512? That poses no problem! At all! The industry could deliver that to you almost by tomorrow. Intel developed experimental 48 core and 1024 core CPU's years ago. Unfortunately, nobody outside a research lab has any use for them, and without some revolution in software development technology that won't change.

After rethinking that statement I'm sure you will agree that "getting as many cores as we can cram into a smartphone's TDP and package size" would just blow... worst CPU ever.

What we do want is as much computational performance as we can possibly get. The trick to getting that, is finding the best balance between core count and individual core performance, which is most closely suited to running the software we use. That is the whole message I'm trying to get across here.

 

[a5cent]

I just don't see why ARMs would not be able to laser cut bad areas or just deactivate them in the chip bios.

First of all, these SoC dies are really really small. A few defects on the wafer here and there, requiring you to throw away a few SoCs, isn't going to ruin you... the defective dies (very cheap) are just priced into the functional SoCs that are eventually sold.

Throwing out an entire x86 CPU, that is only partially defective, amounts to throwing out a comparatively much larger part of the wafer and a much larger chunk of potential profits ($100 and up)... hence the laser.

 

[AngryNil]

Not sure why a synthetic benchmark is so much better than a real life benchmark. I hope you know that companies like Nvidia have released drivers SPECIFICALLY for doing better in synthetic benchmarks. So, would that be a better measure?

You're comparing boot times of two completely different operating systems. You do not know what is being computed in each boot, you do not know which components are the bottleneck and you have literally no idea what is happening. How do you know that the OS is fully loaded by the time a device displays the lock screen? Why does it matter if one phone loads the OS 10 seconds slower, when it also runs everything once loaded twice as fast?

Look at that super powerful gaming machine! Oh wait, it boots slower than this ultrabook because the ultrabook has a SSD. The ultrabook must be better! In fact, my Omnia 7 boots faster than my friend's GS II! Hot damn, that inefficient QSD8250 in my phone must be an absolute powerhouse!

nVidia's biased benchmarks are still a million times more useful than your measure. And a combination of benchmarks is definitely superior in measuring the potential of the hardware. Real world performance? My device sits at app splash screens for long, long seconds. The GS II doesn't.

 

[maverick786us]

In my boredom I re-listened to the WP8 Keynote from June 2012

One of things Joe B talked about in the 8 platform announcements was the support for multi-core processors

As I listened again, I noticed that he said WP8 kernel could (shared kernel with desktop and servers) run on 64 core machines but that didn't mean it was ready.

As a matter of fact, around the 12:00min mark he says



* single core WP8 software will not be ready in 2012
* quad-core+ WP8 software will not be not ready in 2012


I think this rules out any quad-core HTC devices being released in 2012 as the current version of WP8 has only been focused on dual-core devices.

I do hope that MS adds support for quad-core devices ( for the spec crowd and subsequent bragging rights ) early 2013 as Qualcomm is now ready to release their quad-core processors
Snapdragon? Processors | All-in-One Mobile Processor | Qualcomm

The LG Optimus G uses this processor.

Again, I expect WP8 to run smoothly on a dual core devices, but I don't want WP8 to limit the OEM from releasing their latest and greatest devices ( like 2010,2011) because of the limitation of the OS

Quad core will always be good. But at this point of time it is OVERKILL for mobile devices. We already have dual core processors for multi-tasking and a discreate GPU with 1GB RAM.

 

[Gaichuke]

Quad core will always be good.

No it won't. Did you even read this thread?