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04-27-2013 09:40 PM
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  1. vlad0's Avatar
    Most important with Qualcomm 600 and 800 is that after Nokia's own solution of fitting two GPU's on 808 PureView, Qualcomm 600 is the first standalone SoC to support 55MP camera sensor.
    I think this is essential and a very important factor. We will have to wait and see what Nokia have decided, but my guess would be using one of those chips.. instead of trying to port the 808 system "as is" over to WP.

    Now, the fact that those chips support 55Mpix is good, but do they have enough power to support the oversampling required for those 5/8Mpix pureview shots ? And more importantly.. the 1080p video recording where the DSP/GPU combo on the 808 is crunching around 1 billion pixels every second ?

    informative quote

    Falk Lumo: The iCamera (Nokia 808 Pureview) Part I

    "All still photo cameras have the problem that the sensor has many more pixels than there are in HD video. But it is hard to read out all pixels of a still image (10 MP or more) 24, 25, 30 or even 60 times a second. Therefore, still cameras only read a small fraction of its pixels to make the video stream, known as subsampling or line skipping. The effect is a significant degradation of image quality in video mode: there is noise, line flicker, color moir and the result is no match for HD content produced with so called 4k cameras or cameras with supersampling such as the Canon C300. Such cameras cost $15,000 or more (a notworthy exception is the Panasonic GH2 though which made it the camera of choice for serious video work on a budget).

    And what shall I say? The iCamera (808) does it too, not supersampling 8MP (C300) or 16MP (GH2) but supersampling all 33,593,616 pixels (16:9) 30 times every second! That's one billion pixels the iCamera processes every second. In a mobile phone. This is crazy!"

    So let's hope the 600/800 chips can do that so we get it all.. not some version of it. If the rumors are true, the EOS or the EOS2 should be better than the 808.
    tissotti and jmajid like this.
    04-12-2013 08:43 PM
  2. jmajid's Avatar
    @vlad0 thanks for reminding us of that quote - i think that was from a website where the author wondered IF Apple had released the 808 Pureview how it would have been received.
    Nokia (Damian Dinning) has also mentioned this amazing number of pixels per second that is being processed from that 41MP sensor to proviode the 1080P at 30fps...

    I do wonder if Nokia decided not to take the camera sensor and built in gpu from the 808, when did Nokia decide to start with the new implementation for WP? I am sure it would take more than the usual development cycle for a "normal" phone, which is somewhere between 12 to 18 months.... so what does that tell us? If they release this at the end of this year, they began no later than... May/June 2011, which is a full year before the 808 was even released... but 4 months after they decided to go WP.
    Just my thoughts on a saturday morning :) Yes, i am a N8 and 808 owner. I would love to hold out for this phone, am interested in the 928 and of course the catwalk for my wife but this one, it would be mine :)
    04-13-2013 09:27 AM
  3. cameradork's Avatar
    I really hope they get this all sorted by the time I'm up for renewal in the Fall of 2014. I'd love to have this kind of sensor in my next phone :)
    04-13-2013 10:12 AM
  4. farukdgn's Avatar
    Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much..
    04-13-2013 11:08 AM
  5. cameradork's Avatar
    Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much..
    This only shows a video comparison, which I could care less about. The 808 takes better stills, and that's important to me. It has a physically larger sensor and uses oversampling to create much better quality 5MP images, even when viewed at 100%. The bokeh is nicer and it allows for a type of "lossless" zoom that the 920 can't do. It's not enough of a difference for me to have picked up an 808 (I hate Symbian quite a bit), but it's a no-brainer if both phones are running WP8.
    tissotti likes this.
    04-13-2013 03:49 PM
  6. jmajid's Avatar
    Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much..
    I am not sure which video you watched - the 808 bested the 920 on all but the video stabilization due to the in built hardware 3 axis OIS, which was always going to be a given.
    The 808 provides better stills, better highlights in dark shots, better detail and provides better control overall for the user.
    Nice video though...thanks:)

    EDIT: Forgot to add.... there is no substitute for hardware - be it the hardware OIS on the 920, or the 41MP sensor and the on sensor gpu on the 808.
    04-13-2013 05:20 PM
  7. tissotti's Avatar
    Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much..
    This is getting a bit tiring...
    Nokia said MP war is over and unfortunately people just watching those numbers did not get it.
    808 PureView does exactly that, it is not about the megapixels anymore, the 41MP is used as a big surface the 808 PureView uses for oversampling, stabilization. You can take 38MP shots (that are surprisngly quite a bit better than Lumia 920 photos), but the magic is in 3-8MP oversampled pictures.
    http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/84956.../Download1.pdf


    Trust me as as a 808 PureView and Lumia 920 owner, 808 is not a camera phone, it feels more of a DSLR at times. Here's good example of 808 PureView beating 699 dollar standalone camera, Galaxy Camera.
    Galaxy Camera vs. 808 PureView: Shoot 'em up - GSMArena.com
    Last edited by tissotti; 04-14-2013 at 11:26 AM.
    jmajid, vlad0 and Slenzen like this.
    04-14-2013 10:17 AM
  8. Peterukk's Avatar
    Guys. Lots of details on 41MP Nokia EOS being reported by MyNokiaBlog. No word on source credibility but if they're true..holy ****


    • Dual/Quad Core
    • 41Mp, OIS, LED, Xenon
    • +/- Variable Aperture
    • FM Transmitter,
    • Amoled 1280 x 768 screen
    • 2000 Mah battery
    • detailed camera interface
    • initial launch on At&T



    One insane cameraphone coming your way?

    http://mynokiablog.com/2013/04/15/nokias-next-camera-flagship-the-details





    Luminatic likes this.
    04-15-2013 11:52 AM
  9. jmajid's Avatar
    So - i guess nobody else has seen this news from My Nokia Blog?

    Nokia’s Next Camera Flagship; the Details : My Nokia Blog

    If this is true - then we truly have the successor to the 808 Pureview :)
    Luminatic likes this.
    04-15-2013 11:53 AM
  10. Luminatic's Avatar
    Make it so. Pretty please. Sounds like The lovechild of 808 and 920. My preciius.
    04-15-2013 01:44 PM
  11. tissotti's Avatar
    WPCentral seems to get wrong what My Nokia Blog is saying there. There is two prototypes of the device running inside the company, one of that will be released and at the moment Nokia is thinking to go for the dual core version to get the battery last.

    But then as far as I know Qualcomm 800 is the only available in quad core version and Nokia needs exactly that SoC from Qualcomm so they are able to run that 41MP sensor and possibly even the oversampling were Nokia needed two separate GPU units on 808 PV. So imo it's not all totally making sense there.
    Last edited by tissotti; 04-15-2013 at 07:21 PM.
    jmajid and vlad0 like this.
    04-15-2013 03:16 PM
  12. jmajid's Avatar
    @tissotti - agreed....there is a mismatch there somewhere.
    Snapdragon 800 is the quadcore...
    But what is the dual core SOC then? and will it give the performance they need for processing that amount of pixels for photos and for videos?
    Its going to be a very interesting topic of conversation i think...
    04-15-2013 03:23 PM
  13. tissotti's Avatar
    @tissotti - agreed....there is a mismatch there somewhere.
    Snapdragon 800 is the quadcore...
    But what is the dual core SOC then? and will it give the performance they need for processing that amount of pixels for photos and for videos?
    Its going to be a very interesting topic of conversation i think...
    It is. It's a big limiting factor again with these rumors as Nokia needs such a highly specialized hardware as it can't do what it wants on Windows Phone hardware and software.

    We need to remember that it's not just the ability to run that 41MP sensor, the real number crunching comes from the oversampling technology on 808 PureView. Maybe Nokia could disable two cores and insert extra imaging buffer there somehow. Who knows.
    04-15-2013 03:34 PM
  14. cameradork's Avatar
    Guys. Lots of details on 41MP Nokia EOS being reported by MyNokiaBlog. No word on source credibility but if they're true..holy ****


    • 41Mp, OIS, LED, Xenon
    • +/- Variable Aperture


    variable aperture! That would mean a mechanical iris that adds bulk and more moving parts unless they're talking about some way to simulate it in software...
    04-15-2013 05:40 PM
  15. vlad0's Avatar
    ^Yes, that is why Nokia moved away from variable aperture and added a mechanical ND filter instead. I think its worth 3-stops.. its not ideal, but it saves space and its more durable.

    But maybe they've improved the technology since the N86...

    edit. Yes, it is 3 stops (ND8) on the 808

    "Shutter: Mechanical shutter with short shutter lag[13] and ND8 (3 f-stops) neutral density filter

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_808_PureView

    Here's good example of 808 PureView beating 699 dollar standalone camera, Galaxy Camera.
    Galaxy Camera vs. 808 PureView: Shoot 'em up - GSMArena.com
    The galaxy camera has no chance at all against the 808. The sensor in there is pretty much slightly bigger than what they use in mobile cameras. The whole thing is a waste of space and plastic if you ask me. Its just not a fair fight. In fact, here is two cool graphs showing the difference in sensor size



    so if you are buying a camera, you would want to be towards that orange rectangle, and NOT the red one where the Galaxy Camera is.

    The 808 is much closer to those 1 inch mirrorless cameras, than the galaxy camera:



    And here are couple of images to prove it

    Canon G15
    http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam...2259cs2VT9.jpg

    Nokia 808 (38Mpix resized to 12)
    http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam...2259GFmfq8.jpg

    And here is couple of shots compared to the Sony RX100.. in my opinion the best compact camera for the price right now.

    RX100

    808

    RX100

    808




    Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much
    The main reason for the huge MP count on the 808 is mostly for zooming, not image quality.. I think that came as a secondary effect after they decided to do lossless zooming.

    He lowered the contrast on the 808, that is why the video from the 920 looks more vibrant..it also saturates a bit more by default. But overall the quality of the actual pictures is better on the Phase 1 device.. not surprising really.

    Here is one I took on default settings, you can also see how the zoom works @ 1080p.. no moving parts, nothing mechanical.. its brilliant.



    As far as filming.. they were doing it 2010 with the N8, and the results are not bad at all.



    I do wonder if Nokia decided not to take the camera sensor and built in gpu from the 808, when did Nokia decide to start with the new implementation for WP?
    I would guess soon after they signed with Microsoft. They know its an important differentiator, so the more they wait.. the less time at the top they will have. Hopefully after they show the EOS they can share some of the background story on it like they did on the 808.. that would be the only way to get some insight on their process.

    Don't forget that they also might be trying not only to port phase 1 over to WP, but to actually make it even better.. which would take extra time.
    Last edited by vlad0; 04-15-2013 at 06:31 PM.
    cameradork, tissotti and jmajid like this.
    04-15-2013 06:17 PM
  16. cameradork's Avatar
    It's only a matter of time before Samsung releases a 1GP sensor that is the world's slowest and crappiest, but sells the world's most units because people like the world's most specs on the box. It'd be good to get a good implementation that pushes mobile photography forward before that happens. Glad to hear June/July is the targeted release for the EOS. It's going to take all my willpower to not buy that off-contract.

    The zoom may be the reason why they did the 41MP in the first place, but I suspect oversampling has a hand in why your sky gradients are _so_ much better than the 920s :)

    I imagine most of Samsung's product management meetings look like a bunch of these gathered around a table:
    moar_cat.jpg
    04-18-2013 12:08 PM
  17. Mirtas's Avatar
    I really hope Nokia releases a 41MP 1/1.2" censor phone. But also hope they improve their currently pureview (as used in the Lumia 920) to something like a 16MP 1/1.8"censor so they are ahead of the competition both in terms of the MP war as in terms of image quality. Before Sony does it and starts selling it to Apple and Samsung.
    04-19-2013 03:56 PM
  18. vlad0's Avatar
    The zoom may be the reason why they did the 41MP in the first place, but I suspect oversampling has a hand in why your sky gradients are _so_ much better than the 920s :)
    Oh ya it helps tremendously with noise levels in pretty much all conditions, even when using the xenon at night, but I am pretty sure D. Dinning (he was head of the project at the time) said that the mpix count was mainly there because they wanted to do loseless zooming since the N93 didn't work out as well as they hoped.

    And ya.. if the EOS is even on par with 808 it will be extremely hard to resist.

    As far as Samsung and Sony... they have their P&S business to take care of, until they decide that the phones will replace their P&S for the most part, I don't think we will see a serious effort. They are lucky that Nokia happened to be in a ****ty situation when the Phase 1 came out.. because if they were in Apple's position for example, they would have killed the P&S market within 20 months.
    cameradork likes this.
    04-20-2013 02:16 PM
  19. vlad0's Avatar
    Someone posted this on mnb

    2200-2400 mha
    dual core with en extra gpu 70% and snapdragon 800 30%
    micro hdmi and fm transmitter maybe
    micro sd 100%
    display pixel like the 920
    amoled gorilla glas 3
    gdr2 pre installed
    new camera interface like on the 808
    OIS, 41 MP, fuc*** good low light, new lenses, Xenon and Led
    wireless charging
    super sensitive touch
    loudspeakers on the back with better sound quality
    dlna pre installed
    2 mp front camera
    sexy alminium design a lot of you see this phone but don’t know that it was the eos
    can’t wait to hold this in my hand


    If they can keep it under 200 grams, and if the camera performs as good as the 808.. they might have a winner.
    cameradork and Juanma Herrera like this.
    04-25-2013 04:31 PM
  20. tissotti's Avatar
    Someone posted this on mnb

    2200-2400 mha
    dual core with en extra gpu 70% and snapdragon 800 30%
    micro hdmi and fm transmitter maybe
    micro sd 100%
    display pixel like the 920
    amoled gorilla glas 3
    gdr2 pre installed
    new camera interface like on the 808
    OIS, 41 MP, fuc*** good low light, new lenses, Xenon and Led
    wireless charging
    super sensitive touch
    loudspeakers on the back with better sound quality
    dlna pre installed
    2 mp front camera
    sexy alminium design a lot of you see this phone but don’t know that it was the eos
    can’t wait to hold this in my hand


    If they can keep it under 200 grams, and if the camera performs as good as the 808.. they might have a winner.
    He seems to be hinting that the aluminium phone we saw was actually EOS. Would be pretty mind blowing if they had stuck that sensor in to that body. Not fan of the design still.

    That screen resolution will stick out though. :/ I wont care, but others will.
    04-25-2013 05:23 PM
  21. vlad0's Avatar
    The EOS will have a hump.. the question is how will they blend it in with the rest of the body. The sensor/optics combo is huge.. there is not much they can do to shrink that.
    04-26-2013 10:44 AM
  22. cameradork's Avatar
    The EOS will have a hump.. the question is how will they blend it in with the rest of the body. The sensor/optics combo is huge.. there is not much they can do to shrink that.
    It could look like a doorstop and they could just take the "thinness" spec off the bottom :)
    04-26-2013 12:10 PM
  23. vlad0's Avatar
    ^ yes.. I am sure it will try to "fade it in" more than the 808, but either way it will be positioned the same way (top heavy)... which actually works very well in the hand. I think the biggest challenge in terms of the body will be size and weight.

    As much as people say the 920 is fine in terms of size/weight, I think its right on the border.. it actually has a larger footprint than the 808 in both volume and weight. So.. maybe no OIS this time around.. 4.2 incher with a thin frame optimized for one handed use.. 10 mm. at the thin side and 15-16 mm. at the hump..

    We will see.. the battery capacity worries me too. The oversampling algorithm require power.. I don't know how many shots the 808 can take per charge in pureview mode, but its not all that many.. it does take a toll on the battery. So.. over 2000 mAh is essential on that one, which won't help with the weight of the device.

    I am really intrigued to find out how they will handle this phone.. its a engineering challenge, and I am sure it will be a marvel, just like the phase 1 device.
    04-26-2013 06:02 PM
  24. JustToClarify's Avatar
    we'll have to wait and see, however getting such a huge sensor stabilised will take its toll so I don't believe OIS will be present if they want to keep reasonable weight

    it's 15 days left and we still didn't get any sample pictures, when 808 was presented we had sample pictures months before or I might be wrong?
    04-27-2013 04:58 PM
  25. vlad0's Avatar
    when 808 was presented we had sample pictures months before or I might be wrong?
    No.. they kept it under wraps all the way until MWC.. no pics from the camera, no pics or renders of the phone (just a sketch), no specs... that one report from Germany a month or so before the announcement that claimed 41Mpix, but no one took it seriously because at that point 41 megapixels in a phone sounded kind of crazy.

    There were official pictures from the camera after they showed the phone, and unofficial ones in between MWC and release date from prototype devices. For me personally the fact that they weren't afraid to show raw jpegs from the phone, and shoot the entire marketing campaign with the phone itself, meant that they had a lot of confidence in the product.. and the results were incredible. We saw non of that with the 920...

    So, they are very good at keeping things away from leaking, especially if the project is of such importance like the EOS. They used to have a leak.. who I think was reporting to Eldar from mobile-review, but they flushed him/her out sometime in 2011.
    04-27-2013 09:40 PM
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