Nokia EOS. 41MP PureView Lumia phone in MWC

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tissotti

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There will be no EOS, at least not one that should also be a phone.

Why Nokia 808 had to use Symbian...

That's just so much BS. The kernel and hardware limitations on WP are right for now, but rest of that is just so much BS that it hurts my head. Nokia is also heading back to making specialized devices next to flagship. Like N82 or N91 were at their time.
Talk about future Nokia’s and more specialized devices | nokiagadgets.com

1. These multicore SoC's keep going down in size and use less and less battery. Worst time of battery life is not now with the multicore CPU's, it was back in GS, iPhone 4, N900 etc time with their single core CPU's build on 45nm tech, with Lumia 920 example using 28nm build and we are only going smaller in scale. Screen is anyways part of the device that uses BY FAR most of the battery. So not really sure what this even has to do with 41MP PureView.

2. Above.

3. What does this have to do with 41MP pureview?

4. Yes as we go down in SoC sizes the temperature goes up, but you can with clever design get over it. Again... what does this have to do with PureView? There are phones with much more powerful SoC's than Lumia 920 used in phones already.

5. PureView is likely way cheaper now to manufacture than it was on 808 PureView. Nokia has INVESTED on PureView for 5 years, it would be wasting that investment now if it didn't use it. With 808 PureView Nokia needed separate GPU inside the camera sensor, simply because no SoC in the world was able to support 41MP sensor back then. Nokia had to design new SoC and separate GPU with its partner just for the device.
Now Nokia can just put Qualcomm 600 or 800 SoC inside the phone that supports up to 50MP cameras and Super HD videos without designing anything new or adding separate GPU as a buffer. Same SoC is already found from HTC One and likely many other new devices.




I'm a Nokia and Symbian fan that owns 808 PV, N9, Lumia 800 and Lumia 920, but the BS is a bit too strong with this one.
 

JustToClarify

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1. Life is choice, you can either use the phone as camera or as multimedia player, not both at the same time. Same is true of the 808.
2. Baseless speculation.
3. See above.
4. The article is hinting that this happens with pretty much every smartphone, so why is it such a big deal?
5. No, it's not that expensive.

Not saying the complaints, about overheating for example, aren't valid, they just aren't valid reasons against PureView WP.

1. Umm yeah it is, and people who choose phone for its camera want its battery to last a full day. For reasons mentioned in the article.
2. Baseless, how?! WP will need everything increased to work as intended, is it true or not?!
3. You too.
4. The article is not blaming WP here but all other multicore phones that do overheat.
5. OK why is there no mainstream phones with CF then? I know it's not the best for signal but it doesn't have to be fully made from CF.

That's just so much BS. The kernel and hardware limitations on WP are right for now, but rest of that is just so much BS that it hurts my head. Nokia is also heading back to making specialized devices next to flagship. Like N82 or N91 were at their time.
Talk about future Nokia’s and more specialized devices | nokiagadgets.com

1. These multicore SoC's keep going down in size and use less and less battery. Worst time of battery life is not now with the multicore CPU's, it was back in GS, iPhone 4, N900 etc time with their single core CPU's build on 45nm tech, with Lumia 920 example using 28nm build and we are only going smaller in scale. Screen is anyways part of the device that uses BY FAR most of the battery. So not really sure what this even has to do with 41MP PureView.

2. Above.

3. What does this have to do with 41MP pureview?

4. Yes as we go down in SoC sizes the temperature goes up, but you can with clever design get over it. Again... what does this have to do with PureView? There are phones with much more powerful SoC's than Lumia 920 used in phones already.

5. PureView is likely way cheaper now to manufacture than it was on 808 PureView. Nokia has INVESTED on PureView for 5 years, it would be wasting that investment now if it didn't use it. With 808 PureView Nokia needed separate GPU inside the camera sensor, simply because no SoC in the world was able to support 41MP sensor back then. Nokia had to design new SoC and separate GPU with its partner just for the device.
Now Nokia can just put Qualcomm 600 or 800 SoC inside the phone that supports up to 50MP cameras and Super HD videos without designing anything new or adding separate GPU as a buffer. Same SoC is already found from HTC One and likely many other new devices.




I'm a Nokia and Symbian fan that owns 808 PV, N9, Lumia 800 and Lumia 920, but the BS is a bit too strong with this one.

"Nokia is also heading back to making specialized devices next to flagship. Like N82 or N91 were at their time." have you read the full article? It actually mentions specialized devices like WP camera..but without phone.

1. Hmm lumia 920 has ~40% bigger battery than 808 and 20% bigger screen, yet worse autonomy. How do you explain that?
2. Above what? The article does mention that such device will show up when technology allows it, but it will not be in these next few years.
3. It does have to do with the phone, people (not just reviewers) are complaining on 185g of lumia, let alone 200+g. Camera with 250g is not the problem, phone is.
4. Yes there are, so?! Heat is the problem and its especially the problem for something you want to take pictures with. It will get hot in the summer if its going to be made of aluminium.
5. Umm can they? I can't see any Android maker having something similar with PV in their plans, if it was so viable they would do it having access to those Qualcomms. I know Nokia has contract with CZ but CZ is not the only maker of big sensors.
 

Bloobed

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1.1. There is no reason you couldn't use it as a camera / phone all day, you just can't game all day while taking pictures.
1.4. Overheating is a common problem, but does not relate to a discussion on the viability of 41Mp WP.
1.5. Because it is more expensive ( just not all that much ), but offers very little benefit for it

2.1. More like 30%, 920 also has over 2x the pixels and refresh-rate( so those great pictures you take can actually be seen), and 808 uses AMOLED ( I'd also like to see battery life comparisons ).
2.4. Only way for photographing to heat up the phone is massive capacitors needed for Xenon, that will eat your battery as well.
2.5. Yes, yes they can. Why other don't do it is propably because of patents or skill ( HTC One ).
 
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JustToClarify

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1.1 There actually is...because when you use it as a camera your 2x pixels and refresh rate with big screen is going to eat a lot more battery. You would also browse the pics through the gallery etc. and CPU&GPU will have to work more thus consume more power.
1.4 I have already said it's got nothing to do with WP itself but every high spec phone of today, especially one made of metal(aluminium).
1.5 CF phone would look very cool and CF has its own strengths(and some cons too but still). It is significantly more expensive to properly make it, else we would have mainstream CF phones in production today.

2.1 For cameraphone daylight visibility is a lot more important than resolution, resolution is of no use if you can't see anything on the screen. While Lumia 920 excels in that area comparing with mainstream phones it's still not up to the par with 808. Oh and who said pictures can't be seen on 808? No 808 owner has complained to that yet, and you always have pinch-to-zoom. Regarding battery if half of these battery drain threads on this forum are genuine I'd say it would be an issue.
2.4 You wouldn't only do photos with it, you can do something else with your phone (like watching videos etc.) and then get nice opportunity for taking the photo, hot metal isn't going to help your fingers.
2.5 HTC One with its mediocre "Ultrapixel" camera(which is just a marketing word) has nothing to do with oversampling technology. I don't think that you could get patent for oversampling as it's too general, for specific algorithms maybe yes.
 

Bloobed

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I know Ultrapixels has nothing to do with oversampling. I was just implying that it might not be as easy to do as one might think, camera-stuff rarely is, as One proves by being mediocre, and that is why not that many bother, after all the form factor would likely make it a non-mainstream device.
 

JustToClarify

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HTC One curved back is getting all the praise for its design and it is 9.3 mm thick..another 4-5 mm and 808 sensor would get in without any hump. 808 has thickness of 14 mm.

The form factor was never a problem, people would understand the necessity of thickness when they start taking pictures and look at the results. Among all those thousands of Android makers and models there must be a market for a single one with good camera. Especially considering that all over the Internet every second debate is about the camera quality.
 

calfee20

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All this talk about the EOS got me thinking about the 808. They are $400 or less on amazon and they are unlocked and work on AT&T and Tmobile. That is cheaper than an 810
 

tissotti

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Well at least part of the specs seem now more plausible with The Verge info about new qualcomm SoC (that is 99% sure to be Qualcomm 600 or 800) and the 1080 support for WP8. Most important with Qualcomm 600 and 800 is that after Nokia's own solution of fitting two GPU's on 808 PureView, Qualcomm 600 is the first standalone SoC to support 55MP camera sensor.

Not sure about 3000 mAH, but everything else seems more than plausible for device being released for holidays this year.
160-180g

lol, with those specs its more like 260-280g ;)

Depends, if they wanna keep producing phones with carved out piece of poly, curved glass and keep the wireless charging build it, then possibly. Though i got a feeling that with Catwalk Nokia is moving to aluminium bodies, again.
Nokia tends to stick to one design language across its high end and then keep it same for couple of waves.
 

vlad0

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Most important with Qualcomm 600 and 800 is that after Nokia's own solution of fitting two GPU's on 808 PureView, Qualcomm 600 is the first standalone SoC to support 55MP camera sensor.

I think this is essential and a very important factor. We will have to wait and see what Nokia have decided, but my guess would be using one of those chips.. instead of trying to port the 808 system "as is" over to WP.

Now, the fact that those chips support 55Mpix is good, but do they have enough power to support the oversampling required for those 5/8Mpix pureview shots ? And more importantly.. the 1080p video recording where the DSP/GPU combo on the 808 is crunching around 1 billion pixels every second ?

informative quote

Falk Lumo: The iCamera (Nokia 808 Pureview) Part I

"All still photo cameras have the problem that the sensor has many more pixels than there are in HD video. But it is hard to read out all pixels of a still image (10 MP or more) 24, 25, 30 or even 60 times a second. Therefore, still cameras only read a small fraction of its pixels to make the video stream, known as subsampling or line skipping. The effect is a significant degradation of image quality in video mode: there is noise, line flicker, color moir? and the result is no match for HD content produced with so called 4k cameras or cameras with supersampling such as the Canon C300. Such cameras cost $15,000 or more (a notworthy exception is the Panasonic GH2 though which made it the camera of choice for serious video work on a budget).

And what shall I say? The iCamera (808) does it too, not supersampling 8MP (C300) or 16MP (GH2) but supersampling all 33,593,616 pixels (16:9) 30 times every second! That's one billion pixels the iCamera processes every second. In a mobile phone. This is crazy!"

So let's hope the 600/800 chips can do that so we get it all.. not some version of it. If the rumors are true, the EOS or the EOS2 should be better than the 808.
 

jmajid

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@vlad0 thanks for reminding us of that quote - i think that was from a website where the author wondered IF Apple had released the 808 Pureview how it would have been received.
Nokia (Damian Dinning) has also mentioned this amazing number of pixels per second that is being processed from that 41MP sensor to proviode the 1080P at 30fps...

I do wonder if Nokia decided not to take the camera sensor and built in gpu from the 808, when did Nokia decide to start with the new implementation for WP? I am sure it would take more than the usual development cycle for a "normal" phone, which is somewhere between 12 to 18 months.... so what does that tell us? If they release this at the end of this year, they began no later than... May/June 2011, which is a full year before the 808 was even released... but 4 months after they decided to go WP.
Just my thoughts on a saturday morning :) Yes, i am a N8 and 808 owner. I would love to hold out for this phone, am interested in the 928 and of course the catwalk for my wife but this one, it would be mine :)
 

anon(5370748)

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Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much..

This only shows a video comparison, which I could care less about. The 808 takes better stills, and that's important to me. It has a physically larger sensor and uses oversampling to create much better quality 5MP images, even when viewed at 100%. The bokeh is nicer and it allows for a type of "lossless" zoom that the 920 can't do. It's not enough of a difference for me to have picked up an 808 (I hate Symbian quite a bit), but it's a no-brainer if both phones are running WP8.
 

jmajid

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Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much..
I am not sure which video you watched - the 808 bested the 920 on all but the video stabilization due to the in built hardware 3 axis OIS, which was always going to be a given.
The 808 provides better stills, better highlights in dark shots, better detail and provides better control overall for the user.
Nice video though...thanks:)

EDIT: Forgot to add.... there is no substitute for hardware - be it the hardware OIS on the 920, or the 41MP sensor and the on sensor gpu on the 808.
 

tissotti

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Watch this video on YouTube. 920 is far better than 808.. "MP" is not really important much..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf-RGRoBfiw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is getting a bit tiring...
Nokia said MP war is over and unfortunately people just watching those numbers did not get it.
808 PureView does exactly that, it is not about the megapixels anymore, the 41MP is used as a big surface the 808 PureView uses for oversampling, stabilization. You can take 38MP shots (that are surprisngly quite a bit better than Lumia 920 photos), but the magic is in 3-8MP oversampled pictures.
http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/849564/data/2/-/Download1.pdf


Trust me as as a 808 PureView and Lumia 920 owner, 808 is not a camera phone, it feels more of a DSLR at times. Here's good example of 808 PureView beating 699 dollar standalone camera, Galaxy Camera.
Galaxy Camera vs. 808 PureView: Shoot 'em up - GSMArena.com
 
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Peterukk

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Guys. Lots of details on 41MP Nokia EOS being reported by MyNokiaBlog. No word on source credibility but if they're true..holy ****


  • Dual/Quad Core
  • 41Mp, OIS, LED, Xenon
  • +/- Variable Aperture
  • FM Transmitter,
  • Amoled 1280 x 768 screen
  • 2000 Mah battery
  • detailed camera interface
  • initial launch on At&T


One insane cameraphone coming your way?

http://mynokiablog.com/2013/04/15/nokias-next-camera-flagship-the-details




 
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