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06-13-2013 03:05 PM
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  1. FavBrowser's Avatar
    Do you mean summer or Christmas?
    Nov-Oct

    I've heard some new rumours today about an "Eos 1" this summer and a better "eos 2" in Christmas. What do you think? The second one could be revealed beside the new wp8.1 update...

    Pd: I think the difference between 41 and 33 mpx is too big. 4:3 mode in 808 means 38 mpx...
    WP is having a hard time with Blue, from what I am hearing it's very likely to be pushed back to 2014

    I've heard some new rumours today about an "Eos 1" this summer and a better "eos 2" in Christmas. What do you think? The second one could be revealed beside the new wp8.1 update...

    Pd: I think the difference between 41 and 33 mpx is too big. 4:3 mode in 808 means 38 mpx...
    There is no EOS2, Max is the only Nokia project post EOS this year
    Juanma Herrera, tissotti and vlad0 like this.
    05-28-2013 03:47 AM
  2. jmajid's Avatar
    Nov-Oct

    WP is having a hard time with Blue, from what I am hearing it's very likely to be pushed back to 2014

    There is no EOS2, Max is the only Nokia project post EOS this year
    You sound kind sure of this information - care to share your source? or how you know this?
    I may be inclined to agree with you on Windows Phone Blue - from what i have read and heard on various podcasts (including Mary Jo Foley), Blue may not be with us until early 2014 - to be honest i was expecting WP Blue in October...coinciding with Windows Blue which will be ready by the holidays...
    Kinda disappointed by this if it does happen this way.

    I am still of the opinion that there will be two versions of EOS - one perhaps announced in July-ish time - not sure of the bandied date of July 9th, but summer...Nokia mentioned this themselves the 925 launch - perhaps to coincide with Amber release?
    Second version of EOS will be announced early 2014 - perhaps implementing so called computational photography - i dont know if that means lightfield or not, maybe it jjust means a higher level of software enhancement? - source an interview by BGR.in with Jo Harlow.
    Nokia

    Anyone else realize that Amber is A - And Blue is B? :) or was i the only one who didnt realise this? :)
    I know - Amber is supposed to be Nokia codename...but maybe?
    05-28-2013 10:41 AM
  3. FavBrowser's Avatar
    My friend was shown roadmaps at MWC, there was no EOS2 for 2013
    jmajid and vlad0 like this.
    05-28-2013 10:57 AM
  4. jmajid's Avatar
    My friend was shown roadmaps at MWC, there was no EOS2 for 2013
    Thanks :)
    and
    05-28-2013 11:10 AM
  5. Michael-Dallas's Avatar
    It does not look like this. :)
    05-28-2013 12:44 PM
  6. jmajid's Avatar
    It does not look like this. :)
    Methinks its an evolution of the 925 :)
    But i dont think i would mind what it looked like, coming from an owner of an N8 and 808 Pureview :)
    05-28-2013 12:46 PM
  7. vlad0's Avatar
    As for EOS 1 and EOS 2, I really have no idea. If this summer phone will really carry that full blown 41MP camera right away It would seem weird to release another full blown PureView phone in Q4 already. Certainly they will improve and use that module again.
    My initial idea was that Nokia would need to wait for Qualcomm 600 or 800 to get that sensor inside the phone, so they would have released stopgap with 10-22MP phone before that.
    I don't know if they are just trying to match the 808, or surpass it ... dsmobile from mnb said that one of these devices is supposed to be better than the 808, so maybe that is why there might be a second one q1/2014 using the same sensor with more enhancements.

    dsmobile has been a reliable source since 2010.. he had details about the N8 way before it came out, so I tend to trust what he says.

    It does not look like this. :)
    I am sure it doesn't.. that's just a silly render someone made. How would you describe it ? 808-ish or 920-ish ? ; )



    There is no EOS2, Max is the only Nokia project post EOS this year
    What is Max about then ? Quad Core ..?
    05-28-2013 01:09 PM
  8. tissotti's Avatar
    It would make perfect sense for Nokia to release phablet "flagship" at the end of this year. They would use the GDR3 updates advantages of 1080p resolution support and new Qualcomm SoC's.
    05-28-2013 01:39 PM
  9. jmajid's Avatar
    I thought the reference to "Max" was for either a phablet or dare i say it... a tablet :)
    and i presume it would be dual core - but maybe quad core with GDR3?

    Do we KNOW that its going to run WP or WinRT? or...WIn8?
    05-28-2013 02:24 PM
  10. Juanma Herrera's Avatar
    I wonder why is so difficult porting oversampling and loseless zoom technology to WP8. I've read something about Symbian is a real-time OS and WP8 isn't, but exactly why is it such an important thing?

    And for vlad0, introducing the OIS system from Lumia 920/925/928 into the huge 808 sensor would make Lumia EOS far better than the last one, so probably EOS is the phone dsmobile referred...

    Could be the (only) 33mpsh pictures because of the use of smaller lens in order to get a slimmer smartphone? Also maybe big lens doesn't provide enough stabilization as tiny Lumia 920 floating lens do...

    For Michael-Dallas:
    Does Lumia EOS have a fast lens? 808 pureview has a f1:2.4 one, which is fast enough and provides a good reduced depth of field to play with (because of the big sensor). I hope the OIS system and the presuming smaller lens don't make the optic system slower :( And of course, having a f1:2.0 lens (like lumia 920) would be awesome, but I think it's almost impossible...
    05-28-2013 02:50 PM
  11. vlad0's Avatar
    I wonder why is so difficult porting oversampling and loseless zoom technology to WP8. I've read something about Symbian is a real-time OS and WP8 isn't, but exactly why is it such an important thing?
    We really have no idea what the issue is, and its most likely a combination of several things, both from a management/business and from a technical standpoint.

    Here is some good discussion on the subject: Why Nokia 808 had to use Symbian...

    My personal take on it is that its mostly related to the OS and the drivers required for the Phase 1 system, at least in its current state.

    Keep in mind that Nokia has literally years of experience with imaging integration within Symbian.. when you start from the N93 all the way to the 808.. all of these were based on Symbian. That is a lot of years of R&D gone into it, so naturally it will take a while for them to get up to speed with Windows NT .. which isn't even their own platform.

    I think the problem is mainly the drivers required for the 3 part processing (CPU, GPU, camera module GPU) for which the system was designed. Nokia said numerous times that what took so long was the fact that they couldn't get a hold of enough processing power for the real time oversampling which happens every time you take a picture (PV mode), and during video.

    This is a very informative article regarding the immense processing power required for what they are doing with the 808: Falk Lumo: The iCamera (Nokia 808 Pureview) Part I

    particularly this paragraph:

    "All still photo cameras have the problem that the sensor has many more pixels than there are in HD video. But it is hard to read out all pixels of a still image (10 MP or more) 24, 25, 30 or even 60 times a second. Therefore, still cameras only read a small fraction of its pixels to make the video stream, known as subsampling or line skipping. The effect is a significant degradation of image quality in video mode: there is noise, line flicker, color moir and the result is no match for HD content produced with so called 4k cameras or cameras with supersampling such as the Canon C300. Such cameras cost $15,000 or more (a notworthy exception is the Panasonic GH2 though which made it the camera of choice for serious video work on a budget).

    And what shall I say? The iCamera does it too, not supersampling 8MP (C300) or 16MP (GH2) but supersampling all 33,593,616 pixels (16:9) 30 times every second! That's one billion pixels the iCamera processes every second. In a mobile phone. This is crazy!"


    So at the time they neither had Snap 800 like SoC, nor did they have a Symbian kernel that can support newer SoC designs (the 808 still uses ARM11 architecture CPU), so they opted for the system we have today, which incorporates a GPU inside the camera module (an engineering marvel that thing..) which works together with the main GPU, and the CPU .. all at the same time. Nokia also explained that having the built in GPU saves them from having to bridge that data transfer over from the camera module to the GPU = faster bandwidth, which is needed for that kind of processing.

    Someone at Broadcom and Nokia did an amazing job on putting all this together. We don't know who makes the companion chip inside the module, but considering how closely they've worked with Broadcom over the years, and the fact that the main GPU is Broadcom made (BCM2763 - very potent in itself), leads me to believe that the built in one is also made by them.

    So all of this is basically custom made stuff. Its not "off the shelf" components, and therefore you need to write your own software to support it.

    My second thought is that all of this needs to be in perfect synchronization, and as far as I know, its easier to do that with a Real-Time modular OS such as Symbian. You need to worry about the 3 processing units, the Xenon flash, and the mechanical ND filter.. to me all of that sound a bit complex.

    And then, there is the actual camera application, which has to take advantage of all this.. the stock WP app won't cut it, in fact.. no where near.

    So.. they are facing some technical challenges for sure, and I am sure that at this point they've figured out a way on how to work it out. I can't wait to see how they do this.. it will put all this speculation to bed. Couple of Nokia guys said that the Phase 1 system is OS independent, which is probably true, but how long does it take ?

    Then you have the question of size/weight/battery life ... all in all this is tremendous effort, and it puts the 808 project in perspective. Think about it.. right now they have all the components, the know how.. the general concept of the idea up and running. Its basically in mass production, and they know that it works. But 4-5 years ago ? 41Mpix in a phone ? That is just silly.. I can't even imagine where they even started with all that.. apparently it started on a napkin:





    And for vlad0, introducing the OIS system from Lumia 920/925/928 into the huge 808 sensor would make Lumia EOS far better than the last one, so probably EOS is the phone dsmobile referred...
    Yes, that would bring another feature to the camera, but they better figure out a way how to completely disable it for daylight photography.. from what I hear it can cause some issues with the IQ.

    Do we KNOW that its going to run WP or WinRT? or...WIn8?
    I am hoping for a BayTrail x86 goodness :) non of that RT stuff.. if they are going to do it, at least do it right.
    Last edited by vlad0; 05-28-2013 at 06:27 PM.
    tissotti and Juanma Herrera like this.
    05-28-2013 06:09 PM
  12. xconomicron's Avatar
    Vlad I am a frequenter at MNB...I remember reading the article about that. Dsmobile probably was suggesting that there were two in the lab being tested... (Both with the same sensor but will different SoC's-dual core/quad core). There have already been rumors (one from last week) giving us a timeframe (july 9) and giving us confirmation that it is indeed a 41MP sensor. Dsmobile does indeed have a doppelganger at MNB too. So...I am just throwing that out there.....

    Honestly, I really am in agreement with the above poster, it would be kind of silly to release two phones with the same type of sensor or almost the same type of sensor with different hardware. If Nokia wanted to wait for GDR3 to support more hardware, then I think they would really want to wait, but from the rumors that have been coming out as of late, I don't think that will happen.

    Max is the phablet with the awful resolution coming out....I believe.
    vlad0 likes this.
    05-30-2013 12:55 AM
  13. vlad0's Avatar
    ^ yes.. I agree that having two devices would be silly, but it might have been on the table at some point.

    Since I mentioned Broadcom in my previous post, here is something interesting from the comment section from this article:

    Living with a 41-megapixel 808 PureView: Symbian's heroic last stand ? The Register

    Broadcom GPU

    The smooth zooming wasn't done by Nokia or Accenture engineers but by the guy sitting over the desk from me at Broadcom (Cambridge), who supplied the GPU. In fact the majority of camera software work was done here, including the video stabilisation (that was a pain!) although there were some Accenture contractors involved, a couple in software work, the rest in testing.

    As for why Pureview is still not yet on the Windows - AFAIK there are still no Windows compatible GPU's that can handle the sensor. I've heard rumours of some interesting camera tech from Nokia/Toshiba (the Pureview 41MP sensor was developed by Toshiba) on the horizon, but still nothing has appeared.

    As to the phone itself, I have one, and the biggest problem is the very erratic wireless. The latest update fixed it for a while, but after a few days, stopped connecting to my home router and has never recovered. Works fine in other places, and the router works fine with every other devices I've ever tried to connect. Most odd. Battery life is great, and it's a solid bit of kit compared with the S.Korea devices I now work on!
    Obviously they've figured out a way to do it.. if they are presenting in a month.
    05-30-2013 02:39 PM
  14. xconomicron's Avatar
    I read that article earlier today...I have a good feeling that they would implement and utilize a separate GPU like in the 808 than have the SoC (s800) do all the processing work with the dual ISP's it has...which if you don't know would most definitely consume enormous amounts of power this way (and a 2000 mAh battery would not do the trick here). I said this before on MNB, I have a feeling that Nokia's and MS's relationship is much more than what we think. I think if MS really wanted to see Nokia's innovation, they would give enough level of support to write the drivers for them-(DSP/WDF)...or at least give specific parts of the OS for Nokia to code themselves.

    I guess we will see....I like my 808, but I am itching for an 808 camera with OIS and if possible a new OS (WP preferably)... ASAP. I don't know where you are located, but I for one cannot use my 808 as a daily driver where I live here in the States. I wish we didn't have to wait on MS for simple things that make the OS feel like it's lagging light years behind.
    Last edited by xconomicron; 05-30-2013 at 11:34 PM.
    05-30-2013 11:23 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    ...or at least give specific parts of the OS for Nokia to code themselves.
    Microsoft has given Nokia access to the entire WP8 code base. Not only does Nokia have access, but also the right to make whatever modifications they desire. So far, Nokia just hasn't made use of that right.
    05-30-2013 11:54 PM
  16. Gaichuke's Avatar
    Microsoft has given Nokia access to the entire WP8 code base. Not only does Nokia have access, but also the right to make whatever modifications they desire. So far, Nokia just hasn't made use of that right.
    But isn't Nokia implementing the double-tap-to-wake and always on clock features for Lumia in the upcoming "Amber" update? Aren't these exactly the kind of modifications they've been allowed to do?
    05-31-2013 01:55 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    But isn't Nokia implementing the double-tap-to-wake and always on clock features for Lumia in the upcoming "Amber" update? Aren't these exactly the kind of modifications they've been allowed to do?
    Allowed? Yes, but they don't do it that way.

    Any feature Nokia can implement entirely in firmware and/or apps, is. For the remaining features that can't be delivered without OS modifications, they ask MS to either provide it directly, or to add an extensibility point (this is exactly how OEMs can add their own camera features and image processing without having to screw around in OS code).

    So, Nokia can only provide those features with GDR2, because only it has the necessary extension points, but they are implemented in firmware, not in the OS.
    05-31-2013 10:09 AM
  18. tissotti's Avatar
    Microsoft has given Nokia access to the entire WP8 code base. Not only does Nokia have access, but also the right to make whatever modifications they desire. So far, Nokia just hasn't made use of that right.
    Those rights Nokia were given had not ever been opened. It's something nice to say to your investors when they jumped to WP. I example doubt Nokia has any real keys for kernel changes.
    So far the changes are much more on the surface delivered using Nokia's extras "app".
    05-31-2013 01:48 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    Those rights Nokia were given had not ever been opened. It's something nice to say to your investors when they jumped to WP. I example doubt Nokia has any real keys for kernel changes. So far the changes are much more on the surface delivered using Nokia's extras "app".
    Nokia does have access to the entire WP code base and the rights to modify any of it. With that type of direct source code access, Nokia really can do anything they want. There's nothing ambiguous about that.

    However, I suspect that you are correct, in that Nokia acquired those rights without ever having the intent to actually use them. As long as Microsoft gives Nokia the ability to plug into the OS whatever they want, without having to actually touch OS code, Nokia will prefer that approach.
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-31-2013 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Spelling
    05-31-2013 02:29 PM
  20. MAERSK's Avatar
    Well my hopes of having this phone with either 64 GB or SD support have died. It's borrowing the 920 look but they still could've doubled the storage. I mean come on they had an N9 with 64 GB storage /drool

    Here's to hoping this Nokia Pro Camera mode at least gives us presets (minimum 3).

    Also going to have to wait for the Rogers version to use on Tmo ;)
    05-31-2013 02:38 PM
  21. vlad0's Avatar
    ^ ya.. I don't get it.. I camera phone from that caliber without an SD card slot makes absolutely no sense.

    Let's hope the international version has one..

    For me, 3 main questions remain:

    1. lossless zooming , and how is it handled
    2. Overasmpling. Can you choose between 5/8Mpix modes. Also, can you switch from 4:3 to 16:9 aspect ratio.
    3. Stereo sound recording during video.

    At this point I am going to assume that this is a direct port from the 808 .. so the optics/sensor/dsp combo are going to be the same, which is amazing. That means that the audio quality will be great as well... just like on the 808.

    an 808 camera with OIS
    Unless Toshiba figured out how to incorporate the tech with the HES9 ... I really can't see that happening this time around. I think that system would need brand new development.
    05-31-2013 04:12 PM
  22. Knut_H's Avatar
    I'm sorry, but you don't seem to have the correct understanding of how pixel binning on the Nokia 808 works. Note that images are not merely resized after being captured - instead, pixel binning allows several smaller sensor pixels to act as though they were one larger pixel, capturing more photons - before the image is saved.
    05-31-2013 07:42 PM
  23. vlad0's Avatar
    Why do people praise the "Pureview" mode of the 808 (and EOS) if it's really just glorified image resizing and pixel binning?
    Because its done in real time at point of capture, and it produces amazing results.:

    This in pureview mode @ 320iso .. if I would take this at full res and they resize later, it will be really hard to clean it up like that. Here, the algorithm took care of it for me quite nicely.



    This in 8mpix pureview mode.. nice, clean pixels.. again, why bother resizing later when you get this "out of the box"




    Also its not straightforward pixel binning.

    From the man responsible for the project:

    GSMArena:
    Is your oversampling technology different from pixel binning technology?

    D. Dinning:
    Yes, it is more complicated than binning. We looked at a number of different methods how we could do this, and some methods preserve more detail, but there are generally a couple of problems here. One is that there's just something not right about the images when you use binning. I won't use the term natural, the term that we use is they are not pure. When you look at the picture, you just see the pixels that relate to the exact detail. What you end up with is you never have strong contrast and there's always a certain softness between pixels—you see three or four pixels leading from black to white. You never see black then white pixels next to each other. Whereas with oversampling, typically you can see pixels literally switch from one color to another. It's really clean.

    Source: Nokia 808 PureView in focus: Interview with D. Dinning - GSMArena.com

    Some people think that the Nokia algorithm is very close to what Lanczos does..

    Also, read this: http://db.tt/4td8Yowr

    It will help you understand further why this technology is.. what it is.
    Last edited by vlad0; 05-31-2013 at 09:37 PM.
    05-31-2013 09:01 PM
  24. Michael-Dallas's Avatar
    I am sure it doesn't.. that's just a silly render someone made. How would you describe it ? 808-ish or 920-ish ? ; )
    920-ish, a little more square and feels a little thinner (except where camera hump is). No screws at the bottom like on the 920.
    Knut_H and Juanma Herrera like this.
    06-04-2013 03:33 PM
  25. Knut_H's Avatar
    920-ish, a little more square and feels a little thinner (except where camera hump is). No screws at the bottom like on the 920.
    Can't wait for the EOS to arrive...

    Did you happen to notice whether the camera had OIS, or digital stabilization only?
    06-04-2013 04:13 PM
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