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  1. bevt's Avatar
    640 XL has been coming soon to AT&T so long it's a joke. There hasn't been a Windows flagship phone in forever! People like me are sitting here waiting to buy the next great windows phone and Microsoft doesn't seem interested in selling anything. Windows Phone lovers I know are slowly giving up and buying iphones. Could someone explain why Microsoft sits by letting all the wind go out of their sails? They should at least tell us if and when they plan to release something instead of this mystery. Seriously? Apple has people lined up for their next release and can afford mystery. By the time Microsoft is ready for the big "reveal" they could find the 3% who cared don't anymore. Am I the only one perplexed by Microsoft these days?
    JohnStrk and sabby_s like this.
    06-18-2015 08:22 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    You probably already know, but just to be sure: the 640 XL is far from a high-end phone.

    I'm not aware of MS ever officially stating why they aren't servicing the high-end market. I think it's because pretty much every high-end WP device to date has failed. The only WP devices that have sold in meaningful numbers were the lowest end devices, like the 520 and 535. I suspect MS has weighed the costs of releasing yet another loss-leading high-end WP device, against the costs of not doing so and losing a good portion of the high-end WP fan base as a result. I suspect the former turned out to be a lot costlier than the later.

    That won't change until MS can release a high-end device that is more likely to sell in larger numbers than they typically do. That will require more than the typical annual refresh with the incremental bump to specs.
    06-18-2015 09:42 PM
  3. bevt's Avatar
    Yes, I know 640XL is not a high end phone but the long, drawn out "coming soon" accents the slow motion trend.

    As I see it Microsoft has to be in it for the long haul including high end phones that may not make them money. If this Windows 10 ecosystem is to fly there has to be a mobile component. I hear Apple people say that it all works together - their phone, their laptop, their iPad. Microsoft can't create this synergy they touted at Build if they don't have mobile hardware worth choosing.
    Nogitsune Micah likes this.
    06-18-2015 10:00 PM
  4. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    If this Windows 10 ecosystem is to fly there has to be a mobile component. I hear Apple people say that it all works together - their phone, their laptop, their iPad. Microsoft can't create this synergy they touted at Build if they don't have mobile hardware worth choosing.
    Unless the plan is to make money on Microsoft software/apps for Apple products.
    fiveaces01 and Guytronic like this.
    06-18-2015 10:08 PM
  5. bevt's Avatar
    Ouch! I don't know - that's too oil and water. Microsoft is still vital in business. I would think they would move toward filling their gaps not abandoning their base. To be the ecosystem businesses rely on these days you need a solid mobile component. Build addressed the need businesses and individuals have for that synergy. True, they may not want to be in the hardware business but they may have to be until they can solidify the ecosystem.
    06-18-2015 10:29 PM
  6. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Ouch! I don't know - that's too oil and water. Microsoft is still vital in business. I would think they would move toward filling their gaps not abandoning their base. To be the ecosystem businesses rely on these days you need a solid mobile component. Build addressed the need businesses and individuals have for that synergy. True, they may not want to be in the hardware business but they may have to be until they can solidify the ecosystem.
    That might not necessarily be the case. Google is doing just fine without desktop/laptop computers. Yes, I know Chromebooks exist, but enterprise users don't use Chromebooks.
    Guytronic likes this.
    06-18-2015 10:35 PM
  7. tgp's Avatar
    And then one has to wonder what the recent executive shakeup means, if anything.
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-18-2015 10:53 PM
  8. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    And then one has to wonder what the recent executive shakeup means, if anything.
    I think we'll have more insights next month when Microsoft has its earnings report.
    a5cent, Guytronic and tgp like this.
    06-19-2015 12:22 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    I would think they would move toward filling their gaps not abandoning their base.
    Except MS isn't abandoning their base. Their base is in Europe and some parts of Asia, comprised mostly of low-end and some mid-range devices. The small number of U.S. customers shopping around for subsidized high-end WP devices barely constitutes a base.

    Enterprise customers, their other base, rarely purchases high-end devices either. Companies that purchase devices by the thousands typically want a device that costs less than $200 (off-contract and unsubsidized).

    Launching and supporting a high-end device is insanely expensive. A smartphone that fails can easily end up costing the company millions in unsold inventory, devaluated unsold components, and wasted marketing dollars. I'd imagine we'd all become wary of doing that at some point, particularly after having gone through so many failed attempts. Like I said, there is no point to releasing just another WP device with the typical spec bump. That might make you and a few others here happy, but it won't do anything for the WP ecosystem, which is the only thing that matters. If it doesn't improve WP's situation in that regard, it's not worth investing money into.

    I dislike this situation too, but I think I understand it.

    At this point I'd recommend getting a used and off-contract L1520 or L930 coupled with a cheap PAYG plan. It's only a few months until october. If that doesn't work, there's always iOS and Android.
    06-19-2015 03:03 PM
  10. PepperdotNet's Avatar
    If what you want is a 640XL from AT&T, buy one of those unlocked, unbranded, up-to-date, dual sim Chinese ones you can get right now with better specs than the crippled version AT&T will eventually release. Set it up, put your AT&T sim in it. Walk into the AT&T store, show it to them, and let them know you got tired of waiting. Upload the video here so we can laugh at them. Why be tied to a carrier when good Lumias are so inexpensive?
    06-19-2015 06:40 PM
  11. Guytronic's Avatar
    Launching and supporting a high-end device is insanely expensive. A smartphone that fails can easily end up costing the company millions in unsold inventory, devaluation of unsold components, and wasted marketing dollars. I'd imagine we'd all become wary of doing that at some point, particularly after having gone through so many failed attempts.
    Key words above!
    This rings true for me and shows that Microsoft's climb up the mountain is a cautionary tale.

    Microsoft is wise to promote in emerging versus established markets.
    People wanting phones with less money can buy and use what I call "toss out devices."
    Microsoft should do well with bargain basement users like myself...
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    06-19-2015 08:28 PM
  12. UptownWebhead's Avatar
    If what you want is a 640XL from AT&T, buy one of those unlocked, unbranded, up-to-date, dual sim Chinese ones you can get right now with better specs than the crippled version AT&T will eventually release. Set it up, put your AT&T sim in it. Walk into the AT&T store, show it to them, and let them know you got tired of waiting. Upload the video here so we can laugh at them. Why be tied to a carrier when good Lumias are so inexpensive?
    Couldn't have said it any better myself. It's incredibly frustrating when they cripple the devices then wonder why they had less than expected sales and then try to blame it on the manufacturer.

    Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-21-2015 01:56 AM
  13. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    You probably already know, but just to be sure: the 640 XL is far from a high-end phone.

    I'm not aware of MS ever officially stating why they aren't servicing the high-end market. I think it's because pretty much every high-end WP device to date has failed. The only WP devices that have sold in meaningful numbers were the lowest end devices, like the 520 and 535. I suspect MS has weighed the costs of releasing yet another loss-leading high-end WP device, against the costs of not doing so and losing a good portion of the high-end WP fan base as a result. I suspect the former turned out to be a lot costlier than the later.

    That won't change until MS can release a high-end device that is more likely to sell in larger numbers than they typically do. That will require more than the typical annual refresh with the incremental bump to specs.
    I wouldn't say the 640 XL is 'far away' from a high end device. I'd consider it a midrange and considering it's various specs it outperforms certain high end phones in some key areas. Screen and processor aside, if this was an iPhone with similar specs, it'd be considered a high end. But I digress.

    It would help Microsoft if they fought to stop releasing carrier variants that have slightly better features than the previous one(928 vs 920 or 925) and if they marketed their own products and offered incentives for their products. The Office 365 with the 640s(and the 735 I think) is a great one.

    Offer Xbox live on these phones for a year.

    Etc etc.

    A large part of the reasons these phones aren't desired(I know as I work to sell these phones) is simply because nobody knows they exist. Partly because of carriers, partly because of OEMs(See Samsung and HTC's poor attempts)...actually this is a larger part tbh and partly because Microsoft barely acknowledges windows phone. You can't sell a product if people don't know they exist or what they do.

    The sad thing is Microsoft poor more effort in Kin's marketing in the US than they ever did for Windows Phone. And that's saying something since Kin died in less than 3 months(Thanks Verizon).

    If what you want is a 640XL from AT&T, buy one of those unlocked, unbranded, up-to-date, dual sim Chinese ones you can get right now with better specs than the crippled version AT&T will eventually release. Set it up, put your AT&T sim in it. Walk into the AT&T store, show it to them, and let them know you got tired of waiting. Upload the video here so we can laugh at them. Why be tied to a carrier when good Lumias are so inexpensive?
    Couldn't have said it any better myself. It's incredibly frustrating when they cripple the devices then wonder why they had less than expected sales and then try to blame it on the manufacturer.

    Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
    *Raises hand*
    640 XL owner here in convict orange color ;) Unlocked and from Hong Kong.
    I am happy to have my first factory unlocked phone free from Carrier updates.

    What does bug the hell out of me is the fact that that not only do carriers cripple these devices(although Verizon did good in bumping the 735 storage up, so kudos to them) is Microsoft handicaps them.

    With phones like the 635 there is no real reason it didn't have a FFC. Look at the 530..no FFC. But the 435 gets it?

    There's no reason why the 640 has nearly the same specs as the 535...except it got a boost in the back for 8 megapixels but the camera on the front is 0.9 megapixels.....but isn't there a 540(which is the 535 I believe with LTE?) that has the same specs as the 640 except it gets the camera in the front.

    There is absolutely no reason the 830 has a weak camera(especially for its high price) in the front...when you released other pureview cameras with at least 1.2 megapixels.

    Why cripple your product and then customers get cheated when you release a slightly better product a few months later? Which is precisely a situation Samsung/HTC used to do in the early days of android. The original Galaxy S and S2 phones were incredibly different depending on which carrier you went to and had(It wasn't until Galaxy S3 that they begin to share a common design and feature set).

    The only phone ATT has gimped, to my knowledge is the 1520...why idk....but most of their Windows Phone usually are not gimped. They usually get the original versions of the phone and no variants(except the 925).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-21-2015 02:34 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    I wouldn't say the 640 XL is 'far away' from a high end device. I'd consider it a midrange and considering it's various specs it outperforms certain high end phones in some key areas. Screen and processor aside, if this was an iPhone with similar specs, it'd be considered a high end. But I digress.
    A term as vague as "far" doesn't mean much without further qualification. We can both define it however we want. I was just trying to convey that anyone shopping around for a high-end device, and who actually needs a high-end device (rather few these days), probably won't be happy with a L640XL. IMHO that is true, hence "far".

    A lot of people think there's a huge difference between the L830 (affordable flagship... not) and whatever device they consider to actually be worthy of the "high-end" moniker. Those folks would consider the difference to the L640XL to be even larger (a.k.a farther). It all comes down to personal opinion.

    That isn't to say the L640 is a bad phone, it's not.

    On a side note, I'm not sure it makes much sense to say: "screen and processor aside, the L640 could be considered a high-end device". At least in the eyes of the general population, I'd say those are precisely the two components that differentiate a high-end from the mid-range. I think that sentence applies to almost every mid-range device on the market, at least if we're going only by hardware specs and not the actual experience of using it.

    Anyway, however we want to classify the L640, it doesn't change anything about how the OP and others view the issue of WP device selection and availability in the U.S. (and the U.K. which has adopted the same crummy carrier policies as the U.S.). Pretty much everywhere else in the world these problems don't exist. I've always been able to get any device (except CDMA exclusives), with or without a subsidy, on any carrier of my choice.

    I suspect MS would love to have all their devices available world wide within a very short time frame, and I think that's exactly what we'd see if U.S. carriers were themselves at all interested in offering WP devices to their customers. They aren't, because as far as their profits are concerned, WP is quite irrelevant.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-21-2015 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Last paragraph
    06-21-2015 06:33 AM
  15. crystal_planet's Avatar
    So everyone's opinion is that the 830 is as good as it gets for us?

    I haven't been on here for quite some time, but if I had to describe the mood in these forums it would be "quiet resignation".
    Sad.
    Guytronic, Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    06-21-2015 01:12 PM
  16. 11B1P's Avatar
    640 XL has been coming soon to AT&T so long it's a joke. There hasn't been a Windows flagship phone in forever! People like me are sitting here waiting to buy the next great windows phone and Microsoft doesn't seem interested in selling anything. Windows Phone lovers I know are slowly giving up and buying iphones. Could someone explain why Microsoft sits by letting all the wind go out of their sails? They should at least tell us if and when they plan to release something instead of this mystery. Seriously? Apple has people lined up for their next release and can afford mystery. By the time Microsoft is ready for the big "reveal" they could find the 3% who cared don't anymore. Am I the only one perplexed by Microsoft these days?
    Unfortunately we're in the middle between 8.1 and 10. MS is not going to devote time and resources to an 8.1 phone.

    More importantly, these are phones. Sounds like you put to much stock in material possessions. If there is not a phone on the market right now that will accomplish your needs, there never will. You will be one of those people always reaching for the mythical unicorn phone. Get out and enjoy life and quit looking down.
    06-21-2015 02:11 PM
  17. theefman's Avatar
    The real question is, at this time when Microsoft apps and services are available and better on competing platforms, why do they need their own mobile platform? Remember the only functionality you cant replicate is cortana, everything else will be the same software or service so If answered honestly i dont think theres any compelling reason for WP to exist anymore, and I would bet some at Microsoft are thinking the same thing.
    Sent from my S3
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-21-2015 02:14 PM
  18. Guytronic's Avatar
    No one here wants to see Microsoft Mobile die.
    I think all users of the Windows platform especially it's biggest fans have been mistreated profusely by MS.

    Personally I was very hopeful yet it's continuance is just not in the cards especially for North American users.
    The tech bloggers I follow seem to be just floating along with mundane news about Microsoft's efforts.
    As a supporter I'll hang in till the end however...good luck to us all.

    Here's to the rise of the Phoenix.
    06-21-2015 04:38 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    So everyone's opinion is that the 830 is as good as it gets for us?

    I haven't been on here for quite some time, but if I had to describe the mood in these forums it would be "quiet resignation".
    Sad.
    I'd say the L1520 is as good as it gets, if you don't mind the size (I do). It being perceived as old and worse, being discontinued, pretty much kills it for most wanting a new high-end device however.

    Otherwise it's the 930 (which is widely available almost everywhere in the world except the U.S. , where it was a Verizon exclusive until they phased it out after just a few months) vs. the 830, both of which have their own sets of pros and cons.

    So yeah, if you're in the U.S. the 830 might very well be as good as it gets, which AFAIK is only available on AT&T and still hasn't received the real Denim update that would enable Rich Capture (I got it sometime in February).

    Ho hum...
    Laura Knotek and Guytronic like this.
    06-21-2015 10:45 PM
  20. maverick786us's Avatar
    So yeah, if you're in the U.S. the 830 might very well be as good as it gets, which AFAIK is only available on AT&T and still hasn't received the real Denim update that would enable Rich Capture (I got it sometime in February).
    That won't change until MS can release a high-end device that is more likely to sell in larger numbers than they typically do. That will require more than the typical annual refresh with the incremental bump to specs.
    An Incremental bump to specs? That will not attract the enthusiastic customers like us. It has to be the top end specs, that should match Note 5 to get the customer's attention.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-22-2015 03:48 AM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    An Incremental bump to specs? That will not attract the enthusiastic customers like us. It has to be the top end specs, that should match Note 5 to get the customer's attention.
    You misunderstand the word "incremental". These days, any spec bump occurring between last year's highest-end devices and this years highest-end devices is incremental! Always. It's been like that for two years now, and going forward the improvements between each year's flagships will become smaller still.

    I predicted this slow down over five years ago, and that's exactly where we are now. The industry has pretty much arrived at the same point where the graphics card industry has been for years. We can no longer make improvements by drawing more power (battery capacity isn't improving at a meaningful rate, nor can we bypass that problem by using larger batteries since there is little market share beyond 5.5"), or adding more cores. The only way to make really noticeable improvements is via CPU node shrinks, which now arrive only once every two to three years.

    Nothing MS or any other OEM can do will get us tangible improvements that are anything but incremental... at best.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-22-2015 at 07:26 PM. Reason: spelling
    Guytronic and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-22-2015 05:53 AM
  22. crystal_planet's Avatar
    No one here wants to see Microsoft Mobile die.
    I think all users of the Windows platform especially it's biggest fans have been mistreated profusely by MS.

    Personally I was very hopeful yet it's continuance is just not in the cards especially for North American users.
    The tech bloggers I follow seem to be just floating along with mundane news about Microsoft's efforts.
    As a supporter I'll hang in till the end however...good luck to us all.

    Here's to the rise of the Phoenix.
    It's weird, but I actually do feel sad - sadder than I did when I abandoned BlackBerry. Being a WP crusader, I always felt that we were a small contingent, but our day would come. It looks like it won't now and soon our beloved WP will be a footnote and share the same space as WebOS and Symbian.

    That hurts. Quite a bit as it turns out. But my contract isn't up for renewal until November, so I still have the smallest slivers of hope.

    In the end, my Nokia Lumia 800 with Tango and 7.5 will be the best phone I have ever owned.
    a5cent, Guytronic and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-22-2015 06:12 PM
  23. Presto's Avatar
    A 1030 should have been released Q3/Q4 last year with updated looks, memory bump up, bigger and better screen and obviously upgraded processor to provide a slicker experience than my now sluggish 1020. Essentially the 930 with the better camera. This would have kept me and others I know happy.
    06-23-2015 07:13 AM
  24. ytrewq's Avatar
    Ummm, they're waiting for Windows 10.

    Of course.

    So the new phone will come working on day 1 complete with Continuum, etc. That's a much better strategy than releasing yet another smartphone with slightly better specs and a Windows Phone 8.1 OS that is struggling to gain market share.
    06-27-2015 11:09 AM
  25. fiveaces01's Avatar
    Microsoft has however realized that the decision to acquire Nokia was a visionary move but ended up being one of their biggest failures. Microsoft too has made one error in judgement in the recent times, and the acquisition of Nokia’s mobile phone division was one such mistake that they made. The mistake cost them a lot! Over 7.6 billion USD and 7,800 jobs to be precise.
    The word around the insider circle suggests that there are already two bids for the Nokia purchase and Motorola and Xiaomi have shown interest in the deal.
    It has been almost 2 years since MS acquired the Nokia devices division. While there have been quite a few mid and budget level phones released there has yet to be a flagship device released. so the next one that MS releases will be their first. And judging by past performance, with no official announcement about a flagship we are at least 6 to 7 months away from one being available for consumers.
    07-22-2015 04:16 PM

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