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04-26-2017 01:03 AM
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  1. TgeekB's Avatar
    I don't know, maybe I overreacted, but we all know how perceptions drive peoples decisions. The title of the article will come up on Internet searches and will, in my opinion, just add fuel to the fire. While MS is ultimately responsible, it seems to me this community should help support those who are trying to create exactly what we ask for. If their main investor had not backed out, they wouldn't have had to go this route. It is what it is.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    04-16-2017 07:58 AM
  2. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    I have been against this crowd funded business from the get go, and oddly enough I am not against WB from bringing Windows Phones to Market !!!

    My whole point is WB made it seem that they were breaking new ground, or doing something different when in truth they are not doing anything new or ground breaking.

    This should have been Venture Capital from day one, and when WB's original backers left Microsoft could have with no issue at all joined in to start the ball rolling.

    The Funding has now stalled and there is no way WB will meet it's goal, however this is going to impact future perception of WB and it's efforts and in truth that is a shame !!!!!

    I admire they had a vision, but after the fail that NuAns was I did not see any future in what WB is trying to do.

    Microsoft needs to lay down a clear picture to both Partners/Future Partners, and Consumers as to what to expect.

    Even old timers like myself have lost faith, and we are basically now just curled up in a ball trying not to get kicked in the teeth by any who take a shot at our Mobile platform. More then anything else it's Microsoft that beat the fight out of us.......
    nate0, mark233, fatclue_98 and 2 others like this.
    04-16-2017 09:19 AM
  3. etphoto's Avatar
    I am not sure I understand this situation correctly. Can't anyone (except for us sad Verizon users) get an Idol 4s if the want a new WP? Why blame WP fans for not wanting to support a start up company when there are phones that a fan can actually buy if and when they r looking for a new phone? Yea, it would be great to have additional choices but to fork over hard earned cash to help a company you may never buy anything from leaves me scratching my head trying to figure out the logic.

    Twitter: @PhotographyET
    fatclue_98 and Drael646464 like this.
    04-16-2017 08:40 PM
  4. nate0's Avatar
    I am not sure I understand this situation correctly. Can't anyone (except for us sad Verizon users) get an Idol 4s if the want a new WP? Why blame WP fans for not wanting to support a start up company when there are phones that a fan can actually buy if and when they r looking for a new phone? Yea, it would be great to have additional choices but to fork over hard earned cash to help a company you may never buy anything from leaves me scratching my head trying to figure out the logic.

    Twitter: @PhotographyET
    Call us dreamers more or less. If the campaign fails I will be looking to see what Greg does from there. The concept of a company who has plans to take in user criticism and feedback to improve there specific device has intrigued me since the OnePlus start up occured. For me to have that type of shift in windows phones coming from Greg and Cerulean was a big eye catcher for me. I want to see what they are all about. 👍
    fatclue_98 and RumoredNow like this.
    04-16-2017 09:21 PM
  5. tgp's Avatar
    Call us dreamers more or less. If the campaign fails I will be looking to see what Greg does from there. The concept of a company who has plans to take in user criticism and feedback to improve there specific device has intrigued me since the OnePlus start up occured. For me to have that type of shift in windows phones coming from Greg and Cerulean was a big eye catcher for me. I want to see what they are all about.
    I'm somewhat intrigued by Mr. Murphy's dreams as well. I just don't see him getting anywhere with W10M. I understand that this was started long before the recent news, but trying to do something now with W10M is like washing windows on the Titanic after it struck the iceberg. I believe he's going to have to look somewhere else.
    04-16-2017 09:27 PM
  6. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Can't anyone (except for us sad Verizon users) get an Idol 4s if the want a new WP?
    Depends on who "anyone" is. Anyone in the US, except now T-Mo has discontinued it so cut out anyone on T-Mo who wants VoLTE and WiFi Calling unless they go with a used Idol 4S. And the recent sale on Amazon (by Alcatel) of unlocked Idol 4S has me wondering if they are selling off remaining stock and ceasing manufacture. They've been dragging their feet about releasing it in any other country.

    "Anyone" doesn't include most of the world and the portion that can access and use the device is now contracting.

    Here's the issue as I see it. These OEMs send up a test in the US because that is where a huge chunk of the phone money is. But the US has by and large not supported Windows Phone so the OEMs think nobody wants it. The Idol 4S Windows might have skyrocketed elsewhere. A phone like that simply can't take off in the US, especially when tied to T-Mo for months as an exclusive and never released in another country. How does T-MoUS get a world exclusive? SMH


    As for Cerulean, at least they are trying something. Yes crowd funding stinks on ice. It wasn't the original plan.
    libra89 likes this.
    04-17-2017 05:47 AM
  7. tgp's Avatar
    These OEMs send up a test in the US because that is where a huge chunk of the phone money is. But the US has by and large not supported Windows Phone so the OEMs think nobody wants it.
    It seems this way, but I doubt it's quite that simple. The OEMs are not that ignorant. After all, their bottom line is dependent on selling devices. Don't you think they do whatever they can to move them? I would think they have a reason for doing what they're doing. And I certainly do not believe that a few anonymous keyboard warriors know better!

    WP's market share in the US has historically been higher than worldwide market share. It still is even today. Maybe the US is actually a roughly accurate cross section of demand.
    04-17-2017 06:55 AM
  8. RumoredNow's Avatar
    LOL I don't know what pipe dream LeGere sold TCL/Alcatel, but T-Mo's track record with WP is not attractive to me as a consumer. Historically, in the US, AT&T/Cricket is the way to go if you want your product on the shelf longer than 6 months and you actually want to move some volume.

    And no, US has never had a higher share by % than other regions and by user numbers #1 would likely be the EU where Italy hit 14% market share, France topped out at 12% (IIRC), Germany around 10% + and UK nearing 10%.

    So far as I remember the US topped out near 4% in the late 2014, early 2015 high water mark for WP.
    fatclue_98, nate0 and libra89 like this.
    04-17-2017 08:14 AM
  9. etphoto's Avatar
    Yeah, Europe has done better with WP then US when it comes to market share.

    Twitter: @PhotographyET
    nate0 and libra89 like this.
    04-17-2017 08:33 AM
  10. tgp's Avatar
    And no, US has never had a higher share by % than other regions and by user numbers #1 would likely be the EU where Italy hit 14% market share, France topped out at 12% (IIRC), Germany around 10% + and UK nearing 10%.
    I didn't say the US had the highest market share. My observation was that the US has historically had higher market share than the worldwide. Latest reports put worldwide sales market share at 0.3%. The US sales market share in February 2017 was 1.7%, nearly 6x higher. Check it out here.

    Either way, there must be a reason for the OEMs to do what they're doing. Their #1 goal is to move devices. They have no vested interest in promoting a certain OS, or in making sacrifices to do so. The question is: why do they seem to focus on the United States? There has to be a reason.
    04-17-2017 09:10 AM
  11. nate0's Avatar
    I get what you mean. Maybe it was due to convenience and logistics.

    Alcatel had already had a Master service center from their previous devices released in the US. HP, is simply global. Other OEMs have not really started in the US though, except WB (as of late anyway) if you scratch Moly. Lenovo--Japan/India I think, Vaio--Japan, Nuans--Japan, and various others that never made it here. Coship/Moly was the only OEM that I know of besides Alcatel that have even some what of a footprint here. Is my assessment off?

    It seems there is more of a melting pot of consumers in US. Plus the US and only a handful of other countries FULLY support Cortana and Cortana integration. Cortana will start taking off real soon even larger than the AI assistant is already--my opinion...
    RumoredNow likes this.
    04-17-2017 09:33 AM
  12. RumoredNow's Avatar
    True enough that US consumers buy phones like chicklets and that is why all the OEMs want in here... But WP has always bucked that volume sales trend.

    The EU has more than double the population of the United States, likely close to the same disposable income per capita and likely close to the same cell phone adoption rate (# users of cell phones vs overall population)...


    If I were releasing a consumer oriented W10M device that had an MSRP on release, or higher, of what the Idol 4S had ($487 USD) my #1 Target would be the EU where WP did very strong. I'd also target those big buyers in Dubai who seem to drive supply throughout the Arabic and African countries and the Hong Kong e-retailers who do the same for APAC. The US would be a secondary consideration for me as I'd expect more modest sales in the land of 13 year olds with current gen iPhones and Samsung flags.

    Mid-tier and budget sell well in those areas also (EU, MEA, APAC). But then you want to also pick up the Latin American markets for $300 USD and less releases.

    America really seems to enter into some decent numbers for bargain blowout devices and overstocks for the Walmart shopping, pre-paid users who figure beggars can't be choosers. Then again, those $100 USD or less models have done well all over the world for Windows Phone.
    nate0 and libra89 like this.
    04-17-2017 09:44 AM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    Maybe it was due to convenience and logistics.

    <snip>

    It seems there is more of a melting pot of consumers in US.
    I'm guessing that a combination of these points has a lot to do with it. The US might be a good cross section of the average consumer.

    Also, the US has a good mix of population and wealth. Some countries, especially in Western Europe, equal or surpass the US in wealth per capita, but don't have the numbers. Other countries have the numbers, but lower GDP.

    Who knows?

    Plus the US and only a handful of other countries FULLY support Cortana and Cortana integration.
    This too. It surprises me that WP did as well as it did in countries not fully supporting Cortana, considering that Cortana was one of the selling points. But being in a country where it is supported is icing on the proverbial cake.

    @RumoredNow, being an armchair CEO is easy, isn't it?
    04-17-2017 09:45 AM
  14. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'm guessing that a combination of these points has a lot to do with it. The US might be a good cross section of the average consumer.

    Also, the US has a good mix of population and wealth. Some countries, especially in Western Europe, equal or surpass the US in wealth per capita, but don't have the numbers. Other countries have the numbers, but lower GDP.

    Who knows?



    This too. It surprises me that WP did as well as it did in countries not fully supporting Cortana, considering that Cortana was one of the selling points. But being in a country where it is supported is icing on the proverbial cake.

    @RumoredNow, being an armchair CEO is easy, isn't it?
    I'd take my chances with some of the armchair CEOs here as opposed to some of those who have actually held the title. Exhibit A - Leo Apotheker.
    tgp, RumoredNow, libra89 and 1 others like this.
    04-17-2017 10:07 AM
  15. dgr_874's Avatar
    I think I'd much rather have a million dollars of microsofts money spent on funding touch friendly, fully scalable UWP versions of software like oracle database, adobe illustrator, image-line fruity loops, an xbox touch controller, or call of duty.

    The software needs to be competitive first. Windows has a rich base of deep, quality power software, from high end games to creative software to hundreds of thousands of coding and enterprise apps.

    All MS needs to do to make the release of windows on ARM a wild success is to "demo" that power the same way it does with hardware - invest in 5-10 pieces of software to show off what other developers can do, and show the way (and what the OS can do).

    That could probably be done for, say 5 million. Add an extra mil, for bringing over the hold out android app developers, and one more for getting drivers for smart devices on the windows platform, and somewhere about this point you'd have a product that can not only do what the others can do, but do a lot more. Make it a total ten million, and the software and connectivity of the power user apps would be _real_ draw.

    Add a snazzy FF, like say, haptic feedback on the screen (would go well with screen keyboard, or above mentioned touch based xbox controller), and an SSD inside, and bang, they fly out the store. Thunderbolt 3 or usb 3.1 ver 2 from intel would not go amiss either given their ability to dock things like external GPUs and full speed hard drives, extra monitors. Even a standard slab with such software capabilities would push decent units, and generate a buzz.

    So no, they should not waste 1 million dollars on a fan project. They should use their money to make sure windows core strength of software power and full feature gaming is properly represented on tablet and mobile devices. That developers can see the benefit of bringing their win32s on desktop, over to UWP on tablet and mobile too (Even if its just putting in controller support with above mentioned touch controller, and making the graphics zoom right on small screens)

    Just as Microsoft started the hybrid market with the surface, it needs to pioneer an rich app ecosystem that exploits the power of desktop software - a point of difference that is "bet you wish you could" rather than "me too".
    And how much battery life do you think that would possible get? An hour or two?
    04-17-2017 11:03 AM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    And how much battery life do you think that would possible get? An hour or two?
    CPUs are much more energy efficient nowadays. It would be 3 hours.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    04-17-2017 11:10 AM
  17. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Well, I've taken the advice of @Daniel Rubino

    I've pulled my pledge for Cerulean. My apologies to @mistagreg as I really support what he is trying to do, but I now need to free up the cash to make some moves. I'm looking forward to the VR project coming to fruition and will follow that as it moves forward with an eye to supporting you via that project.

    Given the tone of the front page article linked in the OP and all the thousands upon thousands of vociferous comments in the blogs and forums... It is apparent to me that too few believe it is worth putting money into the platform so it can remain viable. Many now believe that Microsoft and its partners should simply hand them things (or at least subsidize them) because they have been so "loyal."

    I'm a bit more realistic than that. I think that if there were money to be made on this platform we would have developers and OEMs lining up to get a share. I'm tired of "paying my taxes" in the form of purchases and having that money go down an ever shrinking hole while I read comment after comment about reasons not to buy in from "fans" who don't want to pay what the actual costs are. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel like I'm the only one paying in. Far from it. But the number of people making purchases has dwindled greatly as the number abstaining has grown.

    To all those who battled and continue to battle for the platform to survive by showing support to companies that try to support us, I salute you.

    To those who (IMHO mistakenly) believe that the platform will somehow continue without consumers willing to purchase, I wish you great good luck...
    nate0, fatclue_98 and dlalonde like this.
    04-19-2017 06:18 PM
  18. nate0's Avatar
    To all those who battled and continue to battle for the platform to survive by showing support to companies that try to support us, I salute you.

    To those who (IMHO mistakenly) believe that the platform will somehow continue without consumers willing to purchase, I wish you great good luck...
    I just bought a really cheap 950xl yesterday to have around : ). Used but works like day one. Windows 10 Mobile has a lot of potential. I tend to dig into the OS to find out how it works, more so then I would like. To me Microsoft Windows is like no other Operating system on the planet. It stands alone and for good reason. What other OS has it's own database built in? Everything else derived from Assembly code or unix like kernel code is all the same under the hood to me. That is why I find Windows so intriguing.

    I say this because sometimes I like to speculate what could have been or will be. Microsoft has most of the doors ready in areas of this mobile OS. Folks (OEMs/consumer) just have to look for it, ask for it, build it whatever...
    04-19-2017 07:59 PM
  19. anthonyng's Avatar
    Here's my opinion.
    awwww :(


    and Dan's article made me step away from forum and comment chatter a bit. Well more like just not looking at threads like this.

    Oh well. I'm in no real hurry to change anything and will just wait and let it be I guess!
    Last edited by anthonyng; 04-20-2017 at 01:31 AM.
    libra89, RumoredNow and TgeekB like this.
    04-20-2017 01:15 AM
  20. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'd take my chances with some of the armchair CEOs here as opposed to some of those who have actually held the title. Exhibit A - Leo Apotheker.
    I wouldn't trust any of the armchair ceo's on this website to do my grocery run let alone run a multi-billion dollar company.
    04-25-2017 11:05 PM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    And how much battery life do you think that would possible get? An hour or two?
    For regular use, it'd be pretty much the same as any phone. Extra ram, gpu, and SSD actually take strain off CPU.

    For gaming, it would depend on the game. Typically mobile gaming either requires a huge battery or has a short battery life. So for gaming, yeah that's an issue. Fortunately we are just now seeing the benefits of new battery tech - for example the mixed lithium the s8 uses, has a longer life.

    Most people bus stop gaming, don't game for that long, but I reckon you could get 2-3 hours, max 3d graphics, if you really tried, without making it switch thick. Look at how thin the s8+ is. 3500 mah. You could make this phone a tad thicker and have probably 4500-5000 mah. Which on a smaller screen would do you pretty well.

    Clearly an entertainment smartphone is going to be thicker than a regular one, as its built for power. Like slimline versus laptop.

    I think the old edge tablet by razer did less hours gaming than what you could make this do nowadays with modern tech. I think users would find that satisfying. Especially considering not all games push that hard.

    Practically its a concern (well, to be fair, not really much more than any mobile device when rendering 3d - you get the same quick drain on any device to some degree, but most devices aren't built for the purpose, so they perform poorly and don't have the juice), but the biggest concern (given the advances in battery tech) when making a mobile gaming device of this style would be heat.

    Reckon liquid cooling might be the ticket. They have that in some tablets now. It'd probably have to be fanless, so your heat design would be the real design challenge - make sure it doesn't turn into a hot coal while your playing it.
    04-25-2017 11:13 PM
  22. nate0's Avatar
    @Drael646464 are you from some where around the southern colonial states there about? One of the few people I have seen use that word 'reckon'. I have nothing against it, most of my family live in VA.
    04-25-2017 11:39 PM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    @Drael646464 are you from some where around the southern colonial states there about? One of the few people I have seen use that word 'reckon'. I have nothing against it, most of my family live in VA.
    Nah, I am from the southern hemisphere :P
    04-26-2017 12:29 AM
  24. nate0's Avatar
    Nah, I am from the southern hemisphere :P
    That was my next guess.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    04-26-2017 12:31 AM
  25. anthonyng's Avatar
    I just bought a really cheap 950xl yesterday to have around : ). Used but works like day one. Windows 10 Mobile has a lot of potential....
    Is this used 950xl loaded with day 1 launch OS? If not, then no, you can't say it works like day one cause you haven't been there hahaha. It was hard day 1 lol (or day 30/60 whatever it was for Canada). But hey I survived cause well it still made phone calls fine, checked my messages fine... edge was already way better than windows 8.1 IE

    Too bad RS2 wasn't around 2 years ago.
    nate0 likes this.
    04-26-2017 12:36 AM
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