09-20-2017 06:32 PM
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  1. Momin Shaikh1's Avatar
    The answer to these questions is desire. Some people want the latest and greatest hardware. Some like the idea of 'new'. The S8 and S8+ brought out the idea of curved screen and virtually bezeless phone.

    With iPhone it's a similar thing. It's the hype. The idea of having the best. It's really personal opinion at the end of the day.

    Consumer mentality is about having what others don't have and making people want to have it.
    The same thing can be applied for a catagory device like Surface Phone with heavy marketing. Thats it
    07-05-2017 05:48 AM
  2. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    The same thing can be applied for a catagory device like Surface Phone with heavy marketing. Thats it
    If it was that simple, don't you think MS would have done it by now? Your optimism is great but the issue is that people like what they like. They need a reason to change, a very good reason. Xbox gaming, PC like experience are not going to cut it.
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    07-05-2017 05:54 AM
  3. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    running on arm processor should not hamper battery life. u should take a look a concept named surface note which is based on ms patent which isnt BIG CLUNKY .beleive me that looks sexier than any iPhones.

    price should not higher than top end iphones. price may be a little higher bcoz of dual screens but that should worth it.
    No phone with dual screen has been well received yet.

    Also, concepts are just that.

    Again, to state the obvious. MS can bring out anything they want and people won't buy it because it doesn't do what they want. Doesn't have the apps they want. Doesn't have the ecosystem they want. Doesn't have the social media they want. At this point in time, apps are big. Whether that changes in 5 - 10 years is irrelevant. If you want to succeed in mobile, you need apps and I mean apps that people want.

    For MS fans, when/if a Surface phone ever comes along, it will be, yet again, for them and maybe enterprise might be interested. No one else will care. That's reality.
    Guytronic likes this.
    07-05-2017 05:58 AM
  4. Drael646464's Avatar
    I actually can't think of anything that I need that my smartphone doesn't give me at this point in time.

    Look and feel, camera, e-mail, messaging, social media, apps available and general ease of use with good battery time are just about perfect for me with my chosen device.

    Too much is a determent as far as I see.
    I think name brand device manufacturers are having difficulty figuring out what the best balance is.
    These days it's getting very hard to charge big money for phones that really don't elevate the technology by much.
    I can think of a few things phone's could do that people would appreciate:

    *Not have ads
    *Not have in-app purchases
    *Interface with the human being in a more human-centric manner. rather than tapping on glass
    *type in a less annoying way
    *have longer than a days battery life
    *have a display that you don't have to hold 1 foot from your face and peer at, to see clearly
    *be a size and shape that is comfortable and ideal for using as a phone
    *be able to be used like a piece of paper,
    *Be able to anticipate your needs and act proactively

    As far as need goes, people don't "need" smartphones.

    They only came to feel like it was a need when they were in commonplace useage. In that sense, nothing "new" would be needed, and would become universally needed, the moment it was universally used, whether that was a jack in the back of your brain, a chip in your hand, or whatever else.

    Before smartphones people used features phones and they lacked nothing. Before feature phones they used basic mobile phones, and they lacked nothing. Before mobile phones, they used landlines and pagers, and they lacked nothing. Somewhere back in history, is a half naked dude roaming the African plains, and he lacked nothing. These are essentially conveniences that we pay for with our extremely long work weeks, that make us slowly more dependent, and less resilient, until we end up like the fat people with screens glued to their face in wall-e.
    Momin Shaikh1 likes this.
    07-05-2017 05:59 AM
  5. Drael646464's Avatar
    If it was that simple, don't you think MS would have done it by now? Your optimism is great but the issue is that people like what they like. They need a reason to change, a very good reason. Xbox gaming, PC like experience are not going to cut it.
    Disagree on gaming. Gaming is quite mainstream. If someone delivered a gaming centric phone experience, with near more dedicated device quality titles, it would sell like hotcakes in the under 35 groups.
    07-05-2017 06:01 AM
  6. Momin Shaikh1's Avatar
    I actually can't think of anything that I need that my smartphone doesn't give me at this point in time.

    Look and feel, camera, e-mail, messaging,social media, apps available and general ease of use with good battery time are just about perfect for me with my chosen device.
    I get ur point. consumers tend to buy new phones. let's see what happens
    07-05-2017 06:06 AM
  7. Momin Shaikh1's Avatar
    I'd settle for a functional graphics card in my PC.
    well.that's cool
    07-05-2017 06:11 AM
  8. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Disagree on gaming. Gaming is quite mainstream. If someone delivered a gaming centric phone experience, with near more dedicated device quality titles, it would sell like hotcakes in the under 35 groups.
    If you read the statement correctly, I said a gaming experience and PC experience alone is not going to make a difference to someone adopting a phone and it's ecosystem.

    The phone 'may' sell but it would treated like a game console instead of their daily driver. There is a difference.
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    07-05-2017 06:53 AM
  9. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I can think of a few things phone's could do that people would appreciate:

    *Not have ads
    *Not have in-app purchases
    *Interface with the human being in a more human-centric manner. rather than tapping on glass
    *type in a less annoying way
    *have longer than a days battery life
    *have a display that you don't have to hold 1 foot from your face and peer at, to see clearly
    *be a size and shape that is comfortable and ideal for using as a phone
    *be able to be used like a piece of paper,
    *Be able to anticipate your needs and act proactively

    As far as need goes, people don't "need" smartphones.

    They only came to feel like it was a need when they were in commonplace useage. In that sense, nothing "new" would be needed, and would become universally needed, the moment it was universally used, whether that was a jack in the back of your brain, a chip in your hand, or whatever else.

    Before smartphones people used features phones and they lacked nothing. Before feature phones they used basic mobile phones, and they lacked nothing. Before mobile phones, they used landlines and pagers, and they lacked nothing. Somewhere back in history, is a half naked dude roaming the African plains, and he lacked nothing. These are essentially conveniences that we pay for with our extremely long work weeks, that make us slowly more dependent, and less resilient, until we end up like the fat people with screens glued to their face in wall-e.
    We can go back millions of years and there wasn't any humans and the animals were 'content' (for the most part)... :P

    That list of things on a phone you have there... some is not phone related, some is possible now, others are *shurgs*...

    You want to get technical, we could go back to having 'a phone' and another device for doing tasks, but then we're going backwards instead of forwards.

    Unless you want to go cyborg, there's always going to be an interface of some sort.
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    07-05-2017 06:56 AM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    If you read the statement correctly, I said a gaming experience and PC experience alone is not going to make a difference to someone adopting a phone and it's ecosystem.

    The phone 'may' sell but it would treated like a game console instead of their daily driver. There is a difference.
    Yeah, I don't agree with that. I think if there's a phone that does basic stuff like facebook and Instagram, browser, and it also plays game console level games, people will use it, as their daily driver.

    For those 30% or so of the population, the under 35s that are gamers, the convenience of having that console with them, at all times, without carrying an extra device would be a huge selling point. Plus, such a device is imminently more marketable and exciting that most consumer phones.

    The huge disadvantage of something like the switch - is you have to carry this extra thing with you. You are already carrying a phone.
    07-05-2017 07:04 AM
  11. Drael646464's Avatar
    We can go back millions of years and there wasn't any humans and the animals were 'content' (for the most part)... :P

    That list of things on a phone you have there... some is not phone related, some is possible now, others are *shurgs*...

    You want to get technical, we could go back to having 'a phone' and another device for doing tasks, but then we're going backwards instead of forwards.

    Unless you want to go cyborg, there's always going to be an interface of some sort.
    I was responding to someone basically saying "the smartphone is complete" and "it does everything I need". I don't think when the iPhone was released, anyone needed it at all, on any level.

    We "need" it today, because we are used to the conveniences it enabled. The same is true of any future tech, or any past tech.
    07-05-2017 07:07 AM
  12. Momin Shaikh1's Avatar
    Again, to state the obvious. MS can bring out anything they want and people won't buy it because it doesn't do what they want. Doesn't have the apps they want. Doesn't have the ecosystem they want. Doesn't have the social media they want. At this point in time, apps are big. Whether that changes in 5 - 10 years is irrelevant. If you want to succeed in mobile, you need apps and I mean apps that people want.

    For MS fans, when/if a Surface phone ever comes along, it will be, yet again, for them and maybe enterprise might be interested. No one else will care. That's reality.
    seems u havent read my previous comments. when folded, it will run uwp apps & behave like a phone. when unfolded it will run win32 apps like bluestacks. it is what Cshell is meant to be
    07-05-2017 07:15 AM
  13. Momin Shaikh1's Avatar
    We can go back millions of years and there wasn't any humans and the animals were 'content' (for the most part)... :P

    That list of things on a phone you have there... some is not phone related, some is possible now, others are *shurgs*...

    You want to get technical, we could go back to having 'a phone' and another device for doing tasks, but then we're going backwards instead of forwards.

    Unless you want to go cyborg, there's always going to be an interface of some sort.
    seems you aren't ready to accept anyones point.*
    07-05-2017 07:24 AM
  14. Momin Shaikh1's Avatar
    Yeah, I don't agree with that. I think if there's a phone that does basic stuff like facebook and Instagram, browser, and it also plays game console level games, people will use it, as their daily driver.

    For those 30% or so of the population, the under 35s that are gamers, the convenience of having that console with them, at all times, without carrying an extra device would be a huge selling point. Plus, such a device is imminently more marketable and exciting that most consumer phones.

    The huge disadvantage of something like the switch - is you have to carry this extra thing with you. You are already carrying a phone.
    sony might soon release switch like console following nintendos success
    07-05-2017 07:31 AM
  15. Momin Shaikh1's Avatar
    I was responding to someone basically saying "the smartphone is complete" and "it does everything I need". I don't think when the iPhone was released, anyone needed it at all, on any level.

    Exactly. This is what I'm trying to say. no one needed a cell phone in 1950. but people's had alternative way to communicate at that time.

    You can't say your child will be honest or
    not before he/she is born.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    07-05-2017 07:40 AM
  16. Guytronic's Avatar
    I can think of a few things phone's could do that people would appreciate:

    *Not have ads
    *Not have in-app purchases
    *Interface with the human being in a more human-centric manner. rather than tapping on glass
    *type in a less annoying way
    *have longer than a days battery life
    *have a display that you don't have to hold 1 foot from your face and peer at, to see clearly
    *be a size and shape that is comfortable and ideal for using as a phone
    *be able to be used like a piece of paper,
    *Be able to anticipate your needs and act proactively

    As far as need goes, people don't "need" smartphones.

    They only came to feel like it was a need when they were in commonplace useage. In that sense, nothing "new" would be needed, and would become universally needed, the moment it was universally used, whether that was a jack in the back of your brain, a chip in your hand, or whatever else.

    Before smartphones people used features phones and they lacked nothing. Before feature phones they used basic mobile phones, and they lacked nothing. Before mobile phones, they used landlines and pagers, and they lacked nothing. Somewhere back in history, is a half naked dude roaming the African plains, and he lacked nothing. These are essentially conveniences that we pay for with our extremely long work weeks, that make us slowly more dependent, and less resilient, until we end up like the fat people with screens glued to their face in wall-e.
    Thank you for the lecture.
    I was typing about my use since becoming hooked on smartphones not anyone else.
    fatclue_98 and libra89 like this.
    07-05-2017 07:52 AM
  17. Drael646464's Avatar
    Thank you for the lecture.
    I was typing about my use since becoming hooked on smartphones not anyone else.
    Here:

    Too much is a determent as far as I see.
    I think name brand device manufacturers are having difficulty figuring out what the best balance is.
    These days it's getting very hard to charge big money for phones that really don't elevate the technology by much
    You generalize your experience to market experiences, consumers in general, and OEMs.

    While I don't disagree that current changes to smartphones are piffling on a practical level, and technical advances are minor to UX, making changes that aren't piffling, or minor, isn't impossible. It's just not the sort of innovation that OEMs are trying to shake down people for their money with.

    They add things like dual camera's, or relatively useless AR technology, or a slightly faster processor, instead of something that changes and improves the design of the object, such as new input and output methods, new form factors etc, or radical departures in OS implementation.

    It's completely true that premium phone sales growth has stalled, and that the entirety of growth now basically exists in budget products. That's also partly an effect of "post-adoption" economics. We've seen the same thing with non-hybrid/windows tablets, and prior to that desktop PCs, and a host of other previous technologies, that were also once 'exciting must have things'.

    You need something that is new and novel enough to drive that "got to have it" mentality, that blinds consumers to all practicality and reason when purchasing, in order to drive that early smartphone era level sales.

    Design wise, smartphones have flatlined. The apps are probably as good as they'll ever get, the chipsets are fast enough, and won't get much faster in a hurry. The incremental imaginationless advances, are just going to result in, like all products before it, a larger mid-range and budget section, due to increased brand awareness, and lowered r and d costs.

    But it's not impossible for someone to come along, and offer something substantially different. Just at the moment, none of the players seem to inclined to take the risk.

    Still something will come along. It always does.

    Regarding the "lecture": Shh, no talking in class ;)
    07-05-2017 08:35 AM
  18. Guytronic's Avatar
    @Drael646464
    Again thank you.

    I'm out since I really don't enjoy drawn out discussions that don't mean much to me.
    Fewer words often say more.
    07-05-2017 08:54 AM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    I can think of a few things phone's could do that people would appreciate:

    *Not have ads
    *Not have in-app purchases
    *Interface with the human being in a more human-centric manner. rather than tapping on glass
    *type in a less annoying way
    *have longer than a days battery life
    *have a display that you don't have to hold 1 foot from your face and peer at, to see clearly
    *be a size and shape that is comfortable and ideal for using as a phone
    *be able to be used like a piece of paper,
    *Be able to anticipate your needs and act proactively

    As far as need goes, people don't "need" smartphones.

    They only came to feel like it was a need when they were in commonplace useage. In that sense, nothing "new" would be needed, and would become universally needed, the moment it was universally used, whether that was a jack in the back of your brain, a chip in your hand, or whatever else.

    Before smartphones people used features phones and they lacked nothing. Before feature phones they used basic mobile phones, and they lacked nothing. Before mobile phones, they used landlines and pagers, and they lacked nothing. Somewhere back in history, is a half naked dude roaming the African plains, and he lacked nothing. These are essentially conveniences that we pay for with our extremely long work weeks, that make us slowly more dependent, and less resilient, until we end up like the fat people with screens glued to their face in wall-e.
    But Apple and Android can easily accomplish all those things.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-05-2017 08:59 AM
  20. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    seems you aren't ready to accept anyones point.*
    If there was a point I'd accept it.
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    07-05-2017 09:23 AM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    But Apple and Android can easily accomplish all those things.
    So which phone has no ads, no in-app purchases, is small enough to comfortably port around and hold as a phone, yet has big enough display that you don't need to hold it close/peer at it, like everybody does with smartphones, has a human-centric input (like a natural human behaviour, like 3d interaction, or conversation) instead of inaccurately swiping/tapping a screen, has an input that is accurate and efficient at typing, like a physical keyboard on a PC, versus shape writing or other compromises, can be used entirely with a pen OS and app wide, and proactively anticipates your desires like a true advanced AI?

    The modern smartphone is a behemoth of compromises and its far from the most ideal form for a portable computing device. It's really just "capable of many things whilst not being entirely terrible at most of them".
    07-05-2017 09:31 AM
  22. Drael646464's Avatar
    If there was a point I'd accept it.
    I guess there's a first time for everything, in terms of you accepting other peoples POV, but I'll believe that when I see it.
    07-05-2017 09:32 AM
  23. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    seems u havent read my previous comments. when folded, it will run uwp apps & behave like a phone. when unfolded it will run win32 apps like bluestacks. it is what Cshell is meant to be
    I've read your comments. I don't believe a folding phone or dual screen phone is going to matter.

    Whether win32 apps can run on a phone is irrelevant. How many people want PC on phone? Answer that question first. I can probably guess, not many.

    I am to be exact here referring to CONSUMERS. Not enterprise.

    PC on phone will only be worthwhile if and only if it becomes accessible to low end devices. This means countries where PCs are expensive but phones are easily bought can use this feature. Until they accomplish that, which MS doesn't seem interested in doing, it's a niche idea, meant mostly for enthusiast and enterprise.

    We shouldn't forget that MS has mixed up the language here as well. We have two UWP acronyms now. Win32 apps can be converted to UWP but this does not make them a UWP app. They are two different things.

    Even with that, we need to discuss the main issue. Consumers want what everyone else has. I've already stated this. If whatever phone MS brings out doesn't meet that criteria, it's DOA.

    Doesn't matter how good it is. Doesn't matter what tech it has. Doesn't matter how good it looks. Means squat if no one buys it.

    You haven't addressed my points. The reason you haven't is you can't.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-05-2017 09:33 AM
  24. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I guess there's a first time for everything, in terms of you accepting other peoples POV, but I'll believe that when I see it.
    Give me a reason to. I've yet to see it in conversations. There's lots of, Oh MS is going to be great! They have all this great tech! They're the best! Blah blah....

    I don't buy that when we're talking consumer products. No one has address that aspect. You might like MS. I like MS but at the end of the day consumers want certain things. You have your desires and so do other people. MS needs to meet those to attract consumers. There's nothing MS is doing, as far as I can tell, that will do that yet.

    Until you can prove differently, that's my point of view. I've yet to see anyone counter that.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-05-2017 09:36 AM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    I've read your comments. I don't believe a folding phone or dual screen phone is going to matter.
    Meh, disagree. I think screen real estate has proven quite popular in the marketplace already, and more portable screen real estate will be even more popular. Its kind of logical IMO.

    Whether win32 apps can run on a phone is irrelevant. How many people want PC on phone? Answer that question first. I can probably guess, not many.
    Enterprise would love this feature. But win32 ain't the future anyway, windows on arm is just a bridge. So mostly agree. Although there is A LOT of money to be main from businesses with the right product, I don't think that product is a folding tablet - people want real input methods in enterprise, and a touch screen isn't one.

    PC on phone will only be worthwhile if and only if it becomes accessible to low end devices. This means countries where PCs are expensive but phones are easily bought can use this feature. Until they accomplish that, which MS doesn't seem interested in doing, it's a niche idea, meant mostly for enthusiast and enterprise.
    Strongly agree. As a consumer product, hybrid devices are of most benefit for saving money. There's the added benefit of reduced syncing and set-up, but the major selling point is dosh. ie - poor places will want this, if its cheap enough. As of right now, there is no effort from anybody to create that kind of product.

    Even with that, we need to discuss the main issue. Consumers want what everyone else has. I've already stated this. If whatever phone MS brings out doesn't meet that criteria, it's DOA.

    Yeah, sort of. When the iPhone was released it didn't see that well at first. But once it started selling it caught on fire, and at that point it wasn't "what everybody else had". Same with the ipod, when it started selling well it wasn't what everybody else had.
    Cultural trends and device lust are a little more complicated than pre-existing mass adoption.

    Doesn't matter how good it is. Doesn't matter what tech it has. Doesn't matter how good it looks. Means squat if no one buys it.
    I wouldn't say those things are irrelevant. If its perceived as good looking, and advanced in technology, its quite likely people will buy it.

    Give me a reason to. I've yet to see it in conversations. There's lots of, Oh MS is going to be great! They have all this great tech! They're the best! Blah blah....

    I don't buy that when we're talking consumer products. No one has address that aspect. You might like MS. I like MS but at the end of the day consumers want certain things. You have your desires and so do other people. MS needs to meet those to attract consumers. There's nothing MS is doing, as far as I can tell, that will do that yet.

    Until you can prove differently, that's my point of view. I've yet to see anyone counter that.
    I don't think I've said anything resembling "oh, MS is going to be great". I have no idea how well the company will do in ten years time. I'm not even certain how apple will be doing in ten years time, or google.

    I just don't think MSFT or anyone else is "out for the count" in any arena of tech. It's a industry who's history is marked by shifting sands and favours, by old versus new, and I think MSFT seems to have plans that could afford it some measure of success. Or not. Certainly I prefer their company attitude versus google and apple, but that doesn't mean they'll succeed, only that I am rooting for them too.

    It's a bit like sports I suppose.
    Last edited by Guytronic; 07-05-2017 at 10:54 AM.
    Momin Shaikh1 likes this.
    07-05-2017 09:45 AM
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