Windows 10 a disapointment, hybrids and tablets are dead

[Cleavitt76]

In 2015 Microsoft will add new APIs to the Modern UI for the development of apps optimized for keyboard and mouse. So, in future most of the apps, including productivity apps, will be Modern apps distributed through the store.

One thing is the shell, other thing are the apps. Apps optimized for touch can run in the awful windowed shell of Windows 7. Apps optimized for keyboard and mouse could run in the beautiful Modern UI shell without any chrome.

Well at some point we are just splitting hairs, but when I mentioned Modern UI apps I made a point to say "as it is currently."

MS is already bringing flat design to desktop apps (Visual Studio 2013, Office 2013, etc.). If that UI look along with being sold in the Windows Store is what you are calling "Modern UI" then I tend to agree with you.

However, when I was saying "Modern UI development won't be replacing desktop development", what I really mean is WinRT won't be replacing desktop program development any time soon. I feel that way because WinRT is really just a limited (by design) subset off the existing frameworks and APIs used in desktop development. It's based on things like .Net, XAML, DirectX etc. just like desktop runtimes, but it's more locked down and with a subset of features in order to keep it light and more secure. If MS adds all of the desktop level functionality back in to WinRT they will have recreated/duplicated their existing desktop development frameworks and they will no longer have a runtime appropriate for low power devices. WinRT might be new, but the technology isn't any more advanced than the current MS desktop frameworks. They share the same core frameworks. There is no reason for one to replace the other. I'm sure they will continue to share new features (as appropriate) and design elements as time goes on. It's really not much different than "Windows 10" which is actually a family of OSes optimized for different requirements.

How does forcing full-screen tablet app experience help desktop users? Why this dogmatic attempt to force the tablet paradigm on a friggen desktop PC?

The "full screen tablet app experience" has been optional in Windows 8 from day one (with the exception of the Start Screen). The traditional desktop apps that come with Windows 7 are still present in Windows 8 along with any third party desktop apps you want to install. Windows Media Player, desktop IE, desktop Skype, desktop photo viewer, etc. are all still there. The full screen touch apps have been added so that Windows 8 can also be used on touch devices. They do not take anything away from the desktop.

If MS had removed all the desktop programs and replaced them with the touch apps then your description of "forcing tablet apps on desktop users" would make sense. However, that really isn't the case is it? You don't have to use them if they don't fit the workflow of your device.

The Modern UI functionality was obviously added so that Windows could be used on a wide range of devices and not limited to only laptops and desktops. It also allows for hybrid devices which would not be possible if MS split the functionality into separate OSes (like Apple's iOS/OSX). For some reason a lot of people do mental gymnastics to characterize additional and optional functionality as a "limitation" even though the original options are still there.

The only exception is the Start Screen, but that is an element that is shared by both touch and keyboard/mouse users so it is bound to have some compromises.

 

[EC Translating Services]

Wrapping the Modern apps in windows won't solve the usability problems in the store apps for desktop users. It just perpetuate the old paradigms of windowed apps that Windows 8 attempted to change.

Rodan, Modern apps are not "wrapped" into Windows. There is an article by Daniel Rubino in this same website (Which i have linked to before) which explains how to get back the "OLD 8.1" behaviour with both interfaces. So unless i am misunderstanding you, you are complaining about something that the OS already has. Microsoft (for what i humbly see and without any pretense to be a genius of course) does not have removed modern UI. It has made it SELECTABLE. Do you want OLD 8.1 style? good you can have it (Through navigation settings menu options). Do you want the new cleaner old style Win7 desktop? You can have it, too.
Joe Belfiore explained also that in real life (consumer wise) despite the UI still being selectable, the OS will determine automatically whether the device has a keyboard or not. If it has a keyboard...it'll boot with Desktop UI, if a keyboard is not detected, it'll boot in Modern UI mode. Even so (It is my understanding) you can change it.
My personal take: i'd base the boot mode also on display size with devices with keyboard up to 11" booting in Modern UI mode, especially with very high resolution displays. I have used a couple of Lenovo yoga pro 2 and the fonts are so small that you get blind and any setting you change makes it blurred. Apart from that (which is a Windows issue that Apple products don't have due to a smarter scaling strategy), i'd keep the modern UI on those devices (and on WP too for that matters) because they are easy to use in that way.

 

[EC Translating Services]

Every review I've read of Windows8/8.1 slammed it for identity crisis. That includes guys that follows Apple and Google as well. Critics didn't like it. Masses didn't like it. It was admirable that Microsoft brought a new innovative design but this is also a fact that it didn't garner masses attraction which accounted for lack of developer support. You don't change something drastically. Change is always gradual. There is a reason Apple changed iPhone sizes gradually from 3.7" to 4" to 4.7" and 5.5". You may have been innovative enough to have realized the potential of modern UI but most people haven't. So now, Microsoft are taking the gradual route. I'm sure once we have enough users and developers support, it will be easy for MS to shift to Modern UI. Secondly, winRT framework on which Modern UI is based is still in its early years. It will take time to mature. With user feedback, I'm sure MS will be able to improve Modern UI with consequent updates.

The reason for sharing that article was to remind you that this was the Desktop focused Technical Preview and Modern UI focused Consumer Preview will be released later.

Why don't you use the feedback app to provide feedback to MS regarding Modern UI for hybrids.

I agree with you. I found myself at ease since day one (but translating UIs is one of the things i do for a living since 2000). What i couldn't rationally explain and found causing me too many clicks (and time) was that everything was doubled. So somewhat you got lost. You had this gorgeous, innovative UI whose looks had me amazed and i swear i spent days playing with that just for fun, and then the discovery that the new environment wasn't done for power users (no multiple windows etc.). It appeared immediately as a competitor of Android for mobile devices transplanted on a desktop machine with a huge display. I found the trick to get the desktop back and i enjoyed the other things (stability, speed etc.). Nobody EVER mentioned that the new OS was incredibly stable. I never had one crash or a BSOD since then. Nobody mentioned how fast it boots and becomes operative. As if things don't exist. Windows 8, and now 10 are all what WP should be. A flexible platform for productivity.

 

[SlingLaker9811]

I have a Core i5 337U, with 1GB of video memory of a Nvidia 740M, 4GB of RAM and apart from boot up time, Windows 8 is significantly slower than Windows 7.

I am waiting for Windows 10 to improve performance.

But it's a miracle that Windows 8 runs smoothly on your grandmother's PC, because it works rather terribly on my much more powerful laptop.

Please explain how it is slower?I have a Pentium Dual core 3.0 Ghz,4GB DDR2 ram, NVIDIA GT520 2GB DDR3 graphics card, and Windows 8.1 performance is vastly superior to 7 due to the absence of aero, shadows, and also 7 takes up much more ram than 8.1. 8.1 also has DirectX 11.2. This performance difference is visible in many games, which run faster and have a higher fps on 8.1 than 7. Example-AC3,MW3,etc.
And by the way, 99% of people reading this forum and using Windows 8 would like to disagree with you. It's been proved many times over that you like to bash during Microsoft. And praise Google sky high.

 

[salmanahmad]

Please explain how it is slower?I have a Pentium Dual core 3.0 Ghz,4GB DDR2 ram, NVIDIA GT520 2GB DDR3 graphics card, and Windows 8.1 performance is vastly superior to 7 due to the absence of aero, shadows, and also 7 takes up much more ram than 8.1. 8.1 also has DirectX 11.2. This performance difference is visible in many games, which run faster and have a higher fps on 8.1 than 7. Example-AC3,MW3,etc.
And by the way, 99% of people reading this forum and using Windows 8 would like to disagree with you. It's been proved many times over that you like to bash during Microsoft. And praise Google sky high.

Google was never mentioned here, I'm still waiting on Microsoft to fix the issues I have with Windows, not Google.

The problem with speed that I have is primarily with all Windows 8 applications and the UI in general. Most of my apps run just as well, primarily heavy gaming titles like FarCry 3 or Batman Arkham City but the UI is so god damn slow, even the Skype app takes ages to refresh, and many other Metro apps.

 

[Karthik Naik]

I have a Core i5 337U, with 1GB of video memory of a Nvidia 740M, 4GB of RAM and apart from boot up time, Windows 8 is significantly slower than Windows 7.

I am waiting for Windows 10 to improve performance.

But it's a miracle that Windows 8 runs smoothly on your grandmother's PC, because it works rather terribly on my much more powerful laptop.

FYI most laptops these days come with your config
this i dont believe because my pentium 4 (prescott) 3.2ghz HT with 1gb ram and a Nvidia 8600GT ran perfectly with 8,till my nvidia gpu fried and i downgraded to 7
windows 8 is significantly faster and uses less ram than 7

Comparing Memory Usage In Windows 8 Vs Windows 7 | Support For Google Chrome

Is Windows 8.1 lighter on the system resource than Windows 7? : windows

 

[Karthik Naik]

How does forcing full-screen tablet app experience help desktop users? Why this dogmatic attempt to force the tablet paradigm on a friggen desktop PC?

ironically people complained that windows 8 was doing just that when it released,now people are saying just the opposite
im getting a feeling people just want to find faults even when they got it right

 

[Karthik Naik]

Google was never mentioned here, I'm still waiting on Microsoft to fix the issues I have with Windows, not Google.

The problem with speed that I have is primarily with all Windows 8 applications and the UI in general. Most of my apps run just as well, primarily heavy gaming titles like FarCry 3 or Batman Arkham City but the UI is so god damn slow, even the Skype app takes ages to refresh, and many other Metro apps.

lol werent you the one saying chrome os + android will beat windows + windows phone in the merging race in that other thread?!!

 

[Zulfigar]

ironically people complained that windows 8 was doing just that when it released,now people are saying just the opposite
im getting a feeling people just want to find faults even when they got it right

Na, I think Microsoft knew Windows 8 would fail because people don't like a lot of change, which is why people complained a lot. Now they've heard all the complaints, and want more to make sure Windows 10 will be a good, viable OS for everybody.

Yeah, people find a reason to complain, take XP, people wanted it to be more secure, which brought Vista, but it was too secure, which brought 7.

Now you have 8 which brought a drastically new idea, so next you'll have 10 which has all the scared people appraising it (and confused about the name).

Glad Microsoft has that kind of money, or there'd be another world of hurt, heh.

 

[salmanahmad]

FYI most laptops these days come with your config
this i dont believe because my pentium 4 (prescott) 3.2ghz HT with 1gb ram and a Nvidia 8600GT ran perfectly with 8,till my nvidia gpu fried and i downgraded to 7
windows 8 is significantly faster and uses less ram than 7

Comparing Memory Usage In Windows 8 Vs Windows 7 | Support For Google Chrome

Is Windows 8.1 lighter on the system resource than Windows 7? : windows

Lol, most laptops don't come with the configuration I have, I have decent mid-range specifications and my laptop cost nearly $1000, plus I can always expand the RAM beyond 4 GB.

Again, my apps run the same with maybe a few performance bumps that are barely noticeable, but as far as the whole "Metro" apps go, they are quite slow, plus the Windows Store takes ages to load so I generally stay from it, and I can often see stuttering when moving between my live tiles. I am willing to make a whole video on this.

lol werent you the one saying chrome os + android will beat windows + windows phone in the merging race in that other thread?!!

No, I believe I didn't say that. While I do prefer Android over Windows Phone(not saying that Windows Phone is bad), I've never been an avid supporter of Chrome OS. So you've got the wrong guy here.

 

[Cleavitt76]

... The problem with speed that I have is primarily with all Windows 8 applications and the UI in general. Most of my apps run just as well, primarily heavy gaming titles like FarCry 3 or Batman Arkham City but the UI is so god damn slow, even the Skype app takes ages to refresh, and many other Metro apps.

... Again, my apps run the same with maybe a few performance bumps that are barely noticeable, but as far as the whole "Metro" apps go, they are quite slow, plus the Windows Store takes ages to load so I generally stay from it, and I can often see stuttering when moving between my live tiles. I am willing to make a whole video on this.

I'm sorry, but this argument makes absolutely zero sense. People are saying that Windows 8 performs better than Windows 7 (which it does). You are arguing with them and basically saying that in your experience Windows 8 has roughly the same performance as Windows 7 for desktop programs, but that Windows 8 is slower than Windows 7 for Metro apps.

How can Windows 8 be slower at Metro apps? Windows 7 doesn't even run Metro apps. Even if it takes a month for Windows 8 to load or refresh a Metro app that will still be much faster than NEVER on Windows 7.

Why are you comparing the Metro version of software on Windows 8 to the desktop version on Windows 7? Apples and oranges. Use the desktop version of the software on Windows 8. You know you can do that right?

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

I'm sorry, but this argument makes absolutely zero sense. People are saying that Windows 8 performs better than Windows 7 (which it does). You are arguing with them and basically saying that in your experience Windows 8 has roughly the same performance as Windows 7 for desktop programs, but that Windows 8 is slower than Windows 7 for Metro apps.

How can Windows 8 be slower at Metro apps? Windows 7 doesn't even run Metro apps. Even if it takes a month for Windows 8 to load or refresh a Metro app that will still be much faster than NEVER on Windows 7.

Why are you comparing the Metro version of software on Windows 8 to the desktop version on Windows 7? Apples and oranges. Use the desktop version of the software on Windows 8. You know you can do that right?

A lot of people seem to wonder why version 3 of a piece of software that has been out for roughly 2 years is slower than roughly 7 year old software that is on version 6. Add in that the two year old one is on a new RunTime. I don't think they know how software works.

 

[rodan01]

However, when I was saying "Modern UI development won't be replacing desktop development", what I really mean is WinRT won't be replacing desktop program development any time soon. I feel that way because WinRT is really just a limited (by design) subset off the existing frameworks and APIs used in desktop development. It's based on things like .Net, XAML, DirectX etc. just like desktop runtimes, but it's more locked down and with a subset of features in order to keep it light and more secure. If MS adds all of the desktop level functionality back in to WinRT they will have recreated/duplicated their existing desktop development frameworks and they will no longer have a runtime appropriate for low power devices. WinRT might be new, but the technology isn't any more advanced than the current MS desktop frameworks. They share the same core frameworks. There is no reason for one to replace the other. I'm sure they will continue to share new features (as appropriate) and design elements as time goes on. It's really not much different than "Windows 10" which is actually a family of OSes optimized for different requirements.

What percentage of the desktops apps used in the whole world are limited by WinRT? Probably a really small set, 0.5%-1%?
For most of the apps that people use in consumer and the enterprise market, WinRT is enough. WinRT also adds security, more control of resource consumption, isolation to avoid performance degradation of the OS, better APIs.
Obviously Microsoft has to add UI components optimized for mouse and keyboard.

Microsoft could add APIs for apps that require access to non-secure functionality of the OS, and create profiles for the distribution of those apps. For example, for public distribution through the public store they only allow a subset of the APIs, in private app stores for enterprise customers they could relax security and provide more APIs. Profiles are being used in .NET since many years ago, for example, client profile, Silverlight.

Of course you want a consistent API for the Windows platform. That's the point of Universal Apps, the ability to develop with the same set of APIs to maximize the productivity, reuse most of the code and adapt the UI for each form factor.

 

[rodan01]

Rodan, Modern apps are not "wrapped" into Windows. There is an article by Daniel Rubino in this same website (Which i have linked to before) which explains how to get back the "OLD 8.1" behaviour with both interfaces. So unless i am misunderstanding you, you are complaining about something that the OS already has. Microsoft (for what i humbly see and without any pretense to be a genius of course) does not have removed modern UI. It has made it SELECTABLE. Do you want OLD 8.1 style? good you can have it (Through navigation settings menu options). Do you want the new cleaner old style Win7 desktop? You can have it, too.
Joe Belfiore explained also that in real life (consumer wise) despite the UI still being selectable, the OS will determine automatically whether the device has a keyboard or not. If it has a keyboard...it'll boot with Desktop UI, if a keyboard is not detected, it'll boot in Modern UI mode. Even so (It is my understanding) you can change it.
My personal take: i'd base the boot mode also on display size with devices with keyboard up to 11" booting in Modern UI mode, especially with very high resolution displays. I have used a couple of Lenovo yoga pro 2 and the fonts are so small that you get blind and any setting you change makes it blurred. Apart from that (which is a Windows issue that Apple products don't have due to a smarter scaling strategy), i'd keep the modern UI on those devices (and on WP too for that matters) because they are easy to use in that way.

I'm writing this from the Windoze 10 preview with the start screen activated. Although, Apps are windowed, the screen is full of chrome, app switching at the left isn't there, neither charms. So, no, there is no choice. Microsoft is forcing me to use Windows 7.

You can make full screen a particular app with an horrible and unintuitive menu they added in the title bar of each window. But this is for a particular app and It come back to windowed mode when you switch from other app. So, it's similar or worst to the F11 full screen option of IE in Windows 7.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

I'm writing this from the Windoze 10 preview with the start screen activated. Although, Apps are windowed, the screen is full of chrome, app switching at the left isn't there, neither charms. So, no, there is no choice. Microsoft is forcing me to use Windows 7.

You can make full screen a particular app with an horrible and unintuitive menu they added in the title bar of each window. But this is for a particular app and It come back to windowed mode when you switch from other app. So, it's similar or worst to the F11 full screen option of IE in Windows 7.

The line "there are no charms, so I'm forced to use Windows 7" has to be a typo. Also, the task switching (not sure of the keyboard shortcut) shows Store Apps and desktop apps. I don't know why I bother, though, because your signature is the real eye opener. I suppose it shouldn't have even taken that with such wonderful word use as Windoze.

 

[spaulagain]

The ignorance in this thread is simply astounding.

To the OP, do us all a favor, climb back into your box and don't come back out until MS releases the final version of W10. It's clear you have no concept of previews and didn't listen to a thing Microsoft said at the presentation.

 

[smoledman]

The reasons Windows 8 failed with consumers(I don't count Stardock extensions as relevant):

* eliminating the Start Menu and forcing the Start Screen experience on desktop users
* full-screen Modern apps on a desktop
* Charms bar appearing when moving the mouse
* the multi-tasking thumbnails appearing when moving the mouse
* hitting the Start button switching out from a desktop to the Start Screen breaking peoples' workflow

Windows 8.1 addressed part of the first item(boot to desktop option) but none of the others.

Windows 10 appears that it will address all of these which is why it has a chance to succeed with consumers.

 

[Iain_S]

I would say most of the folk on here don't know what they are talking about. This is a technical preview for people to get a very early look at the new platform. It will change vastly between now and the consumer preview. You wont see any of this probably until the build 2015. Once it gets to the consumer preview builds you will probably see the new UI, the new IE, how it interacts on different devices and many others things.

 

[fatclue_98]

Can't believe this thread is still going. Unless the OP's native language is not English, I don't know what part of "preview" was the most difficult to understand.


Sent from a Samsung Ativ S Neo via Tapatalk

 

[Brandon Tobias]

I'm writing this from the Windoze 10 preview with the start screen activated. Although, Apps are windowed, the screen is full of chrome, app switching at the left isn't there, neither charms. So, no, there is no choice. Microsoft is forcing me to use Windows 7.

You can make full screen a particular app with an horrible and unintuitive menu they added in the title bar of each window. But this is for a particular app and It come back to windowed mode when you switch from other app. So, it's similar or worst to the F11 full screen option of IE in Windows 7.

plz once i installed my trackpad drivers i get charms i have not tried other W8 gestures ..