08-14-2015 09:13 PM
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  1. Wevenhuis's Avatar
    The only thing I'm worried about is the transcript of on an online dev response on someone's questions of the present taskbar at the bottom and that currently there was apparantly a high count of keeping the taskbar in tablet mode. As long as I have worked with my surface pro I have not seen any use of needing a taskbar in tablet mode. Yes I do need it on the desktop sometimes. The taskbar in windows 10 present as standard in tablet mode is beyond my understanding. To be honest for business the adding of the taskbar in tablet mode sounds like a niche function, just like we windows central users and fans have our wishes for certain changes. I've used window 8.x for over 2 years on my surface pro and it never came to mind that I needed the taskbar in tablet mode. What would be the added benefit of that. To me it seems far fetched. The charmsbar and pinned tiles already did a lot of what the taskbar can do. But now that I write this I think I get what microsoft did. They're perhaps phasing out the functionality of the charmsbar and pinnable tiles, so that the end user will pin apps, inks, and tiles to the taskbar.

    For me the familiar experience of windows for a tablet is still the windows start menu with live tiles and the charms bar, no matter what business says.
    01-27-2015 01:46 PM
  2. TechFreak1's Avatar
    In this case it is the bulk of enterprise users that really don't get it thus destroying the tablet experience and that boils down to 6 things

    1) Inadequate documentation from MS on how a user would operate Windows 8 (the tutorial's came later)

    2) Inadequate training from most of IT to users due to laziness b)migrating to windows 7 was the easiest option in terms of GUI familiarity combined
    with the fact most of enterprise customers still run legacy software.

    3) Windows 8 was in short Frankincense's monster for tablets as there was duplicate setting (control panel and the settings app) some would open in the desktop and some in the settings app resulting in a jarring experience.

    4) Touch version of office was not remotely ready

    5) Windows RT was never really understood by most tech journalists, consumers and by extension the enterprise.
    01-27-2015 02:39 PM
  3. sashlon's Avatar
    I kind of like having it there.

    Also, you can hit the diagonal arrows to go fullscreen. Pretty easy really.
    01-27-2015 02:40 PM
  4. dicks-webos's Avatar
    Yes, not (yet) working well on my SF2PRO. But installed it on my i3 standard laptop and its working great. I like the central notification area and my external monitor no longer has a slight flickering (reason enough for me to keep it for now). Will try the SF2 later when MS has polished "tablet mode" a bit. But generally I'm pretty happy with it.
    01-27-2015 03:01 PM
  5. sjaak327's Avatar
    Yep

    It's not that stuff is broken in a public beta that is to be expected it's that they actually INTEND these bad design features to be their once released.

    It's really scary and makes me very leary of the direction of Win 10 for tablets whihc is silly cause all they had to do was port over the Win 8.1 gui and make a few adjustments.
    Precisely, it is their intention or direction that is the worrying part. It's is inconsequential that this is just a beta, it is their intention that is the problem here. Look at their continuum concept video to see what that direction is. Indeed an always visible taskbar, indeed no choice in start experience.

    That xaml start screen is a perfect example, they will never make it ideal for both desktop users and tablet users, just as the start screen in Windows 8 meant a compromise. I personally liked it on the desktop as well, but can understand others don't. This new one will divide people in pretty much the same way.

    It boggles the mind that this time around they are trying the exact same thing as with Windows 8, force a single start experience on everyone. Yes now they allow resizing, but it will not be ideal for both paradigms, simply because screen size and input methods are vastly different.

    At first they showed they finally understood by offering two distinct start experiences in early preview builds, but they have changed their mind and rerunning the Windows 8 way of things.

    I agree with you, ALL they really have to do to make 10 great on both tablets and desktops is disabling the 8.1 stuff on the desktop and replace it with desktop logic stuff whilst re-using the 8.1 stuff in tablet mode, as 8.1 had the tablet covered like no other operating system on the planet.

    Unfortunately, this is not going to happen and I am afraid that this won't change regardless of any feedback, they have already made up their mind.
    Juan Stevens and dare100em like this.
    01-27-2015 03:53 PM
  6. Jose_Rey's Avatar
    I'm in agreement with the OP. If no one talks about it, if we're not crying about it everywhere and only providing feedback, how can we get other people onboard to pester the devs and whatnot. We Tablet users have a voice too, y'know.
    01-27-2015 03:54 PM
  7. Tourniquet's Avatar
    Precisely, it is their intention or direction that is the worrying part. It's is inconsequential that this is just a beta, it is their intention that is the problem here. Look at their continuum concept video to see what that direction is. Indeed an always visible taskbar, indeed no choice in start experience.

    That xaml start screen is a perfect example, they will never make it ideal for both desktop users and tablet users, just as the start screen in Windows 8 meant a compromise. I personally liked it on the desktop as well, but can understand others don't. This new one will divide people in pretty much the same way.

    It boggles the mind that this time around they are trying the exact same thing as with Windows 8, force a single start experience on everyone. Yes now they allow resizing, but it will not be ideal for both paradigms, simply because screen size and input methods are vastly different.

    At first they showed they finally understood by offering two distinct start experiences in early preview builds, but they have changed their mind and rerunning the Windows 8 way of things.

    I agree with you, ALL they really have to do to make 10 great on both tablets and desktops is disabling the 8.1 stuff on the desktop and replace it with desktop logic stuff whilst re-using the 8.1 stuff in tablet mode, as 8.1 had the tablet covered like no other operating system on the planet.

    Unfortunately, this is not going to happen and I am afraid that this won't change regardless of any feedback, they have already made up their mind.
    I totally agree. You only got one thing wrong.
    They never changed their minds in their direction for windows 10. The first new startmenu wasn't supposed to for windows 10, but for Windows 8.1 Update 2. But when they decided to go for big new release they came up with that continuum stuff. When they introduced windows 10 a couple of months ago they showed the same continuum concept already.
    So this was intended all along.
    sjaak327 likes this.
    01-27-2015 05:38 PM
  8. swanlee's Avatar
    Yes their idea that one GUI will serve both Desktop and Tablet users well is really stupid.

    If when Win 8 came out they simply detected Desktop VS Tablet and defaulted to desktop for actual desktops then this wouldn't be an issue.

    Desktop users screamed so loud at having to press ONE button to get back to the desktop that they pretty much freaked MS out and now MS is going to go the opposite direction and make it difficult for Tablet users.

    Seriously Desktop users were so whiny about the start screen they have now screwed it up for Tablet users,

    It sucks that MS is throwing away one of the best Tablet interfaces ever made, plus the swipe commands for Win 8 were just so natural, even if you didn't know how to use it when you tried a swipe it usually worked the way you naturally think it would.
    Last edited by swanlee; 01-28-2015 at 08:10 AM.
    01-28-2015 06:30 AM
  9. Paolo Cardelli's Avatar
    Ugg this is so disappointing

    Why have a Desktop AND Tablet mode when Tablet mode is pretty much throwing out anything good about Win 8.1 for tablets and sticking the taskbar at the bottom taking up screen space?

    And Yes I've tried the auto hide option on the taskbar and it is very glitchy, it pops up at random times, stays visible to long, the taskbar is not ideal for thumb touching and does not work well for this purpose.

    The issue with win 8.1 was not the touch control and Touch Gui, the issue was making them default for desktops. Now they are pretty much forcing the desktop on tablets and making it much less touch friendly than Win 8.1.

    It is crazy MS thinks this is a good idea.

    Their was very little wrong with Win 8.1 gui for tablets WHY do they need to throw that all away for a glorified Desktop GUI?
    I just opened a new topic about this on Official Windows Insider Forums right HERE

    Just keep this fresh and updated, and they will surely notice this thing more.
    They've still 8 or so months left, let's hope for the best...
    01-28-2015 07:34 AM
  10. 1101x10's Avatar
    It would help if they officially wrote about what they are trying to achieve here and the reasoning behind it. The community would at least then have some basis on what to expect, perform testing on, and provide constructive feedback.
    All the're doing is throwing out test builds with random tweets from the Windows developers.
    mrpuny, Juan Stevens and Joe920 like this.
    01-28-2015 07:49 AM
  11. swanlee's Avatar
    Yep

    The tweets are also not very good, they actually intend on the taskbar being present and are shunning anything to do with Win 8.

    They better fix this stuff before it is released, they are a number of new feature I like in win 10 but it is not going any where near my Tablets if the UI is not made better for Touch.

    And I'm primarily talking about no freaking taskbar present and the notification center to include the missing features that were included in the charm bar. They also need the swipe ahead to scroll through active apps back.
    01-28-2015 08:16 AM
  12. swanlee's Avatar
    I just opened a new topic about this on Official Windows Insider Forums right HERE

    I posted onthat thread and made a few other posts.

    Just keep this fresh and updated, and they will surely notice this thing more.
    They've still 8 or so months left, let's hope for the best...
    01-28-2015 08:17 AM
  13. peestandingup's Avatar
    Yes their idea that one GUI will serve both Desktop and Tablet users well is really stupid.

    If when Win 8 came out they simply detected Desktop VS Tablet and defaulted to desktop for actual desktops then this wouldn't be an issue.

    Desktop users screamed so loud at having to press ONE button to get back to the desktop that they pretty much freaked MS out and now MS is going to go the opposite direction and make it difficult for Tablet users.

    Seriously Desktop users were so whiny about the start screen they have now screwed it up for Tablet users,

    It sucks that MS is throwing away one of the best Tablet interfaces ever made, plus the swipe commands for Win 8 were just so natural, even if you didn't know how to use it when you tried a swipe it usually worked the way you naturally think it would.
    Does MS not understand that desktops are going the way of the dinosaur for most consumers? Sure, they jumped the gun on Win 8 by forcing metro on everyone, but that doesn't mean a pure tablet UI was a bad idea, it was just too early & implemented poorly across the board.

    Getting stuff outta the way, which charms did, is part of a good tablet UI. Having an always visible task bar on a tablet is retarded.
    cool8man likes this.
    01-28-2015 08:21 AM
  14. mjrtoo's Avatar
    All this has been done before and failed. Nobody wants a desktop on a tablet, they had this in the 90's and in phones in 2000s, failed miserably. Why do they seem to be going back to this failed model?
    cool8man likes this.
    01-28-2015 08:47 AM
  15. 1101x10's Avatar
    Back to the Future

    microsoft-tablet.jpg
    cool8man likes this.
    01-28-2015 08:50 AM
  16. swanlee's Avatar
    Yea it's funny if they think Win 8.1 was a flop I guess they don't remember how bad a Flop Win 7 was for tablets or Win xp etc.

    NO ONE complained about the GUI experience of Win 8 on tablets what people complained about was shoe horning a Tablet GUI to the Desktop.

    So what does MS do? Shoe horn a Desktop GUI to tablets!!!

    And this has already failed for tablets for the past decade.
    01-28-2015 09:04 AM
  17. jdballard's Avatar
    To me the problem is the cutoff in screen size. From my understanding, tablets < 8" will run like Windows phone (i.e., no desktop) and tablets >= 8" and over will have the desktop.

    I think a small tweak would make it perfect: <= 8" should run like Windows phone. To me, my Dell Venue 8 pro should always run like a tablet. It's too small to really be used as a PC with the desktop. I could even see the argument that tablets that are 9" should run without a desktop.

    Changing the screen size cutoff might solve the issue of the OP.
    01-28-2015 10:55 AM
  18. swanlee's Avatar
    The cutoff is for Future devices not current ones. Already released 7 inch tablets that are X86 will get the Win 10 version for PC's.

    Can you image someone upgrading their HP Stream 7 to Win 10 and having to deal with a taskbar always visible on their 7 inch tablet? That is a nightmare

    I have an 8 inch Acer W4 and win 10 is not going anywhere near it until MS gets their crap together and stops nerfing the perfectly good Tablet GUI they had with Win 8.1
    01-28-2015 11:05 AM
  19. fragment137's Avatar
    I feel the taskbar shouldn't be visible in tablet mode. No reason you can't bring it up with a gesture like the Charms used to in 8/8.1... I'm pretty sure you could also create a GUI change for the taskbar in Tablet mode.. maybe make the notification center more prevelent (have it's own icon) along with settings, cortana, start button (of course) and Share. It can stay on the bottom, but I don't understand why it needs to be constantly there.

    Tablet mode should be Tablet Mode, not "Desktop-with-a-bigger-start-menu" mode...
    01-28-2015 11:37 AM
  20. theefman's Avatar
    Guess this will be fixed in Windows 11!
    Joe920 likes this.
    01-28-2015 11:45 AM
  21. Zulfigar's Avatar
    Guess this will be fixed in Windows 11!
    Windows 10 isn't even out yet...
    01-28-2015 11:46 AM
  22. mrpuny's Avatar
    Does MS not understand that desktops are going the way of the dinosaur for most consumers? Sure, they jumped the gun on Win 8 by forcing metro on everyone, but that doesn't mean a pure tablet UI was a bad idea, it was just too early & implemented poorly across the board.

    Getting stuff outta the way, which charms did, is part of a good tablet UI. Having an always visible task bar on a tablet is retarded.
    I think the problem is that Microsoft "understood" that tablets were going to be the future when developing Windows 8, but so far reality isn't cooperating:

    Apple Barely Missed On iPad Sales - Business Insider

    While this article is specifically talking about the year-to-year decline in iPad sales, it seems that the overall PC market has stabilized and tablet growth has slowed. It's not clear at all now that tablets are going to be the bulk of computing devices going forward, though phones are certainly going to be important. This is absolutely anecdotal, I know, but my wife was using a Mac Mini desktop and an iPad 2. Her mini was long in the tooth, so over the holidays we went looking at computers and she picked out a 13" MacBook Air. She literally hasn't touched the iPad in over a month. Just last night I grabbed the iPad to run the 8.1.3 update and it was completely dead.
    (She also has a Lumia 925, so she straddles both ecosystems; it's a shame that the new Dell XPS13 laptop hadn't come out yet, because she might have been interested in that.)
    01-28-2015 12:16 PM
  23. mrpuny's Avatar
    So I have only tried Windows 10 out on a desktop - no touch screen, just keyboard and mouse. At best I can only use it as a "tablet simulator" and I can't really tell how things work with touch, but I have a couple of questions for anyone using it on a touch device.

    1. Are the edge swipes pretty much gone or are they there but do different things? The right swipe for charms is gone I guess, but what about the left swipe for the (Modern) app switcher? Is it gone completely or does it bring up the new app switcher interface? What about the top/bottom swipes?

    2. I'm a little unclear about whether the taskbar is supposed to hide when in tablet mode. I was just listening to the latest What The Tech podcast this morning, and from what Thurrott said, it sounded like it was supposed to hide when in tablet mode, maybe becoming visible with a bottom edge swipe, though posts in this thread indicate it doesn't. On my desktop, the taskbar remains visible in tablet mode unless I have the taskbar autohide, in which case it consistently hides in both desktop and tablet mode.
    01-28-2015 12:28 PM
  24. jdballard's Avatar
    The cutoff is for Future devices not current ones. Already released 7 inch tablets that are X86 will get the Win 10 version for PC's.
    True. I should have said "going forward".

    Can you image someone upgrading their HP Stream 7 to Win 10 and having to deal with a taskbar always visible on their 7 inch tablet? That is a nightmare
    I absolutely agree although I can I can see at least two reasons why they decided the path they did. First, if someone already has a tablet with a desktop mode (like the Stream 7 or DV8P), you probably don't want to take that away from them. Second, while it's all "Windows 10" and a large portion of the codebase is shared or even the same (and the APIs are the same), there have to be differences between the version that has the desktop and the version that doesn't that would make it difficult to upgrade from a version with a desktop to one without. If it's not difficult, then if I have a 7" tablet, let me choose to have the new version without a desktop.

    I also understand that going forward, people don't want taskbars or a desktop on their tablets. When I upgrade my Dell Venue 8 Pro, unless MS changes things, I'll have a taskbar I really don't want or need. IMHO, 8" devices should run the version without a desktop but MS has said that going forward 8" (or larger) will have the desktop version. What I was trying to say before is that I actually think the cutoff should probably be even higher; say 9" and less should run the non-desktop version. I'm sure that MS has some sort of research showing that the route their going is the "right" one, but I don't agree.

    I have an 8 inch Acer W4 and win 10 is not going anywhere near it until MS gets their crap together and stops nerfing the perfectly good Tablet GUI they had with Win 8.1
    I'll probably update my Dell V8P but I can already see the taskbar being an annoyance. I'll be curious to see how it all shakes out when everything is fully baked.
    01-28-2015 01:03 PM
  25. peestandingup's Avatar
    I think the problem is that Microsoft "understood" that tablets were going to be the future when developing Windows 8, but so far reality isn't cooperating:

    Apple Barely Missed On iPad Sales - Business Insider

    While this article is specifically talking about the year-to-year decline in iPad sales, it seems that the overall PC market has stabilized and tablet growth has slowed. It's not clear at all now that tablets are going to be the bulk of computing devices going forward, though phones are certainly going to be important. This is absolutely anecdotal, I know, but my wife was using a Mac Mini desktop and an iPad 2. Her mini was long in the tooth, so over the holidays we went looking at computers and she picked out a 13" MacBook Air. She literally hasn't touched the iPad in over a month. Just last night I grabbed the iPad to run the 8.1.3 update and it was completely dead.
    (She also has a Lumia 925, so she straddles both ecosystems; it's a shame that the new Dell XPS13 laptop hadn't come out yet, because she might have been interested in that.)
    Possibly. But I think iPad's problems is that its just so limited to what a real computer can do, so people just end up using their phones since its the same OS/apps. Thats probably why the bigger of the new iPhones is selling so well.

    Regarding MS's issue, I think even if tablets aren't the way of the future (yet), the modern UI could be/should've been. The problem with Windows 8 was that there was/is a LOT of stuff you can't do in the modern UI. Tons of settings, controls, etc that MS either didn't have ready, or didn't want to put into Metro. And the big one, APPS. Lots & lots of them that people depend on are only avail in classic that still hasn't came over to modern. All of this stuff keeps classic mode hanging on.

    Its not totally MS's fault, but a lot of it is (like avail settings inside Metro). I think in the beginning of Windows 8 they probably wanted classic mostly dead by now, but that obviously isn't happening. I just wish they weren't going so far back the other way with it now.
    mrpuny likes this.
    01-28-2015 03:48 PM
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