08-14-2015 09:13 PM
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  1. Stefan Holder's Avatar
    The OP fails to acknowledge that this build is the desktop centric Windows 10 build. It's geared towards more desktop and laptop scenarios. To truly get what the true tablet mode of Win10 will act in tablets you gotta wait for the consumer preview. The tone of your post came across as complaining and not as a constructive discussion. Anyways, that's the whole reasoning behind the TP. For users like your good selves to find what works or not and provide feedback. Cheers 🍻

    Sent from my Lumia 1320 all the way from Jupiter.
    01-28-2015 06:58 PM
  2. jhoff80's Avatar
    The OP fails to acknowledge that this build is the desktop centric Windows 10 build. It's geared towards more desktop and laptop scenarios. To truly get what the true tablet mode of Win10 will act in tablets you gotta wait for the consumer preview.
    9926 is in fact the 'consumer preview' (or the closest to one that they're doing this time). Also, let's keep in mind that the final version is going to be out by the end of the year. If there's any time to bring up concerns with the first true taste they've shown of tablet mode, now would be the time.
    01-28-2015 07:21 PM
  3. JamesDax's Avatar
    9926 is in fact the 'consumer preview' (or the closest to one that they're doing this time). Also, let's keep in mind that the final version is going to be out by the end of the year. If there's any time to bring up concerns with the first true taste they've shown of tablet mode, now would be the time.
    This is not in fact the consumer preview. That's why it's called a Technical Preview.
    Stefan Holder likes this.
    01-28-2015 08:24 PM
  4. jhoff80's Avatar
    This is not in fact the consumer preview. That's why it's called a Technical Preview.
    There's not going to be anything explicitly named the consumer preview this time. They're doing a rolling set of technical previews (probably because "consumer preview" implies that it's ready for all consumers to test it and they don't want to give that impression). However, this build is the equivalent of the Windows 8 Consumer Preview, as it's at the same point in the release timeline, and has all of the early consumer features.
    01-28-2015 08:42 PM
  5. mrpuny's Avatar
    Possibly. But I think iPad's problems is that its just so limited to what a real computer can do, so people just end up using their phones since its the same OS/apps. Thats probably why the bigger of the new iPhones is selling so well.

    Regarding MS's issue, I think even if tablets aren't the way of the future (yet), the modern UI could be/should've been. The problem with Windows 8 was that there was/is a LOT of stuff you can't do in the modern UI. Tons of settings, controls, etc that MS either didn't have ready, or didn't want to put into Metro. And the big one, APPS. Lots & lots of them that people depend on are only avail in classic that still hasn't came over to modern. All of this stuff keeps classic mode hanging on.

    Its not totally MS's fault, but a lot of it is (like avail settings inside Metro). I think in the beginning of Windows 8 they probably wanted classic mostly dead by now, but that obviously isn't happening. I just wish they weren't going so far back the other way with it now.
    We'll have to see how the market develops going forward. As Yogi Berra said, "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." At this point, however, I believe that the idea that tablets would rapidly displace PCs was erroneously driven by the normal human tendency to extrapolate short term trends (rapid initial growth for a new market) into the long term combined with a pro-Apple media narrative and an overly simplistic view of people's computing needs and wants.

    That's not saying that tablets won't be around, just that there's going to be a more complex mix of devices in people's lives than simply tablets uber alles. Which means that if Microsoft wants to have Windows scaling on a range of devices, they've got their work cut out for them. I don't envy the Windows 10 team.

    So take the charms bar of Windows 8.x, or even more broadly, all the edge swipe gestures. I really do like them for the most part, and the left/right swipes in particular can be wonderfully convenient when holding my Dell V8P. A quick flick of the thumbs brings up the charms or the Modern app task switcher. But they're not perfect. My kids and I have often accidentally triggered them, especially playing games. Fruit Ninja, being all fast swipes across the screen, was particularly bad for this. That was the game that drove me to change the default left swipe gesture to be the task switcher rather than sliding in the next app on the stack. I'd be playing Fruit Ninja and all of a sudden I'd be looking at my email or internet explorer. It gets worse the smaller you go in screen size. Except for the pull-down notification added in WP8.1, Windows Phone really doesn't have any edge swipes, and I'm pretty sure that's due to screen size. That pull-down gesture for notifications comes from Android, also copied by iOS, so it's 'standard' and given the normal portrait orientation of a phone, that's probably the least likely edge gesture to be triggered accidentally. I've also run into a similar situation using a laptop running Windows 8. It had a small trackpad with trackpad gestures enabled, and I found it maddening because I was frequently getting my finger too close to the edge of the trackpad and triggering an edge swipe.

    On the desktop, the 'hook' mouse motions for the left/right edge swipes are also a little clunky, and I think it makes sense to do something about them there to improve the desktop experience. There's also another oddity with the charms bar either with windowed Modern apps or snapped modern apps if the app with focus isn't on the right side. That oddity is that the charms bar is analogous to a menu bar in a traditional desktop app. However, it's more like the menu bar on a Mac where it's at a fixed screen location regardless of the app window location, rather than like on Windows where it's in the app window. And like on the Mac, sometimes I've found myself bringing up the charms for the wrong app because I thought the other one had focus. There are other things that may be a concern, like what about the near-bezeless XPS13? It can be configured with a touch screen; do the edge gestures work OK on that system? How about if a future version pushes for an even smaller bezel?

    This is just my musing trying to reverse engineer the decisions that are going on with Windows 10. I may be completely wrong in my thinking. But what I see is a potential logic that edge gestures may only be workable on a subset of potential windows computing devices, and an attempt to come up with a common solution instead to build a coherent experience across the entire range.
    01-28-2015 09:25 PM
  6. Loc Ngo's Avatar
    But its name is still "Technical Preview" and there hasn't been anything named "Consumer Preview" officially released from MS. So it still heavily focuses on the desktop mode of Windows. MS needs your constructive feedback to make it a beautiful and fully-functional OS for us consumers, not all the whining like in this forum. So stop intuiting things from your feelings, instead try to make deductions based on known (and officially announced) facts.
    Gosh, I wish that people could be this over-sensitive about everything that the likes of Apple or Google do.
    01-28-2015 09:38 PM
  7. cool8man's Avatar
    I think the problem is that Microsoft "understood" that tablets were going to be the future when developing Windows 8, but so far reality isn't cooperating:

    Apple Barely Missed On iPad Sales - Business Insider

    While this article is specifically talking about the year-to-year decline in iPad sales, it seems that the overall PC market has stabilized and tablet growth has slowed. It's not clear at all now that tablets are going to be the bulk of computing devices going forward, though phones are certainly going to be important. This is absolutely anecdotal, I know, but my wife was using a Mac Mini desktop and an iPad 2. Her mini was long in the tooth, so over the holidays we went looking at computers and she picked out a 13" MacBook Air. She literally hasn't touched the iPad in over a month. Just last night I grabbed the iPad to run the 8.1.3 update and it was completely dead.
    (She also has a Lumia 925, so she straddles both ecosystems; it's a shame that the new Dell XPS13 laptop hadn't come out yet, because she might have been interested in that.)
    Wrong. The PC market did decline last quarter if you exclude Windows tablets (see IDC). As you point out that was an iPad decline, but tablets in general did not decline. People have stopped getting iPads because they can get Android and Windows tablet for under $99 or a 2-in-1 PC with a tablet for under $200. When you look at the latest Gartner and IDC numbers if you don't count Windows tablets then PC sales declined significantly year over year (even counting Chromebooks), if you do include tablets (Gartner) then PC sales increased year over year. That means it is tablets driving the market forward and the traditional PC form factor is still dying (even if you count Chromebooks which aren't full PCs).

    Desktop and laptop sales are still declining which resulted in drastically lower Windows license revenue; that is why Microsoft's stock price just plummeted over 10%.
    01-29-2015 12:42 AM
  8. mrpuny's Avatar
    Wrong. The PC market did decline last quarter if you exclude Windows tablets (see IDC). As you point out that was an iPad decline, but tablets in general did not decline. People have stopped getting iPads because they can get Android and Windows tablet for under $99 or a 2-in-1 PC with a tablet for under $200. When you look at the latest Gartner and IDC numbers if you don't count Windows tablets then PC sales declined significantly year over year (even counting Chromebooks), if you do include tablets (Gartner) then PC sales increased year over year. That means it is tablets driving the market forward and the traditional PC form factor is still dying (even if you count Chromebooks which aren't full PCs).

    Desktop and laptop sales are still declining which resulted in drastically lower Windows license revenue; that is why Microsoft's stock price just plummeted over 10%.
    Wow, that's some pretty strong statements. So let's see, PC sales are "dying" falling by an absolutely huge, astounding.....2.4% not including "tablets", which I think also includes hybrids, 2-in-ones, etc., right? Meanwhile, Gartner, including those other devices, showed a 1% growth. IDC estimated 80.8 million PC units last quarter, vs Gartner's 83.7 million. Which means that several years in to the post-PC revolution in which traditional PCs were supposed to be relegated to very niche markets (like the old UNIX workstations) the PC market seems awfully stable.

    And Windows revenues were drastically lower (~13% IIRC) based on "lower PC sales" (-2.4% worst case according to IDC.) Yep, all due to declining PC sales, and nothing at all due to Microsoft's "zero dollar" and low-cost licensing going forward.

    This is another case where the facts don't quite seem to fit the narrative.
    sjaak327 likes this.
    01-29-2015 07:22 AM
  9. peestandingup's Avatar
    It really wouldn't take much to alleviate some of these issue in tablet mode if MS would just implement them. Make hiding the taskbar easier & not glitchy, remove the frequent app list on the left side, and make search/Cortana either removable or accessible some other way. Tablet users don't need any of those things staring them in the face at all times, especially when screen resolution/real estate is so small on most windows tablets.

    If I want to search for something, I can edge swipe left. If I want to see my full list of apps, I can swipe up. This is how it is in 8.1 & it works. It should stay that way. If Cortana is set to always listening, then that's even more of a reason to get rid of that bar. Why would I want that bar to be there at all times when I can just talk to the tablet?
    01-29-2015 10:02 AM
  10. swanlee's Avatar
    Joe Belifore has stated the taskbar is supposed to be present at all times in Tablet mode and other aspects of the TP reflect what they intend on the final release like the removal of Charms.

    We know the TP will be buggy but the issue isn't bugs the issues are MS intends to have the OS work this way on Tablets which is a huge step back from win 8.1 on tablets.

    Now is the time to speak on these issues not when the code is final and they can't change it.
    cool8man likes this.
    01-29-2015 10:54 AM
  11. Giffdev's Avatar
    Hey All, happy to see such discussion around tablet mode and the taskbar. While I cannot discuss specifics of feature implementation or our roadmap (come on, you know I can't :) ) , I did want to say that your feedback is bubbling up to us, and to please continue to express it using the Windows Feedback app on the tech preview. That said, the taskbar isn't finalized, and we have a number of improvements already slated (again, I'm not going into specifics here). Just know that we're still months from release, improvements and changes are still coming (especially around user interface, that is always being refined), and we definitely are listening to your feedback. :)
    Joe920, badcat, jhoff80 and 4 others like this.
    01-29-2015 11:12 AM
  12. Luigi Lop's Avatar
    i completely agree that we need a change- or to better say, they are doing the same mistake in the opposite direction. First the tabletize the desktop, now they desktopize the tablets. The 2 modes need strict distinctiveness.
    cool8man likes this.
    01-29-2015 11:19 AM
  13. swanlee's Avatar
    Hey All, happy to see such discussion around tablet mode and the taskbar. While I cannot discuss specifics of feature implementation or our roadmap (come on, you know I can't :) ) , I did want to say that your feedback is bubbling up to us, and to please continue to express it using the Windows Feedback app on the tech preview. That said, the taskbar isn't finalized, and we have a number of improvements already slated (again, I'm not going into specifics here). Just know that we're still months from release, improvements and changes are still coming (especially around user interface, that is always being refined), and we definitely are listening to your feedback. :)

    Thanks, I've definitely been very active in using the built in feedback apps, Win 10 insider forums, twitter, and forums like these expressing my opinions on Win 10.

    Please make it clear though to anyone that will listen that an always visible taskbar on a tablet is completely unacceptable from a UI and touch perspective and really needs to change. This is currently my biggest problem with Win 10.

    The features that necessitates an always visible Taskbar could easily be move to the notification center which can be opened on command when needed.

    So really in short you can improve the taskbar all you want but the fact is the taskbar shouldn't even be their in tablet mode in the first place unless someone goes to it on purpose.
    Last edited by swanlee; 01-29-2015 at 01:02 PM.
    jhoff80 likes this.
    01-29-2015 11:31 AM
  14. bschiav's Avatar
    Hey All, happy to see such discussion around tablet mode and the taskbar. While I cannot discuss specifics of feature implementation or our roadmap (come on, you know I can't :) ) , I did want to say that your feedback is bubbling up to us, and to please continue to express it using the Windows Feedback app on the tech preview. That said, the taskbar isn't finalized, and we have a number of improvements already slated (again, I'm not going into specifics here). Just know that we're still months from release, improvements and changes are still coming (especially around user interface, that is always being refined), and we definitely are listening to your feedback. :)
    Thanks for chiming in.

    I was just reading the thread. I'm coming from using windows 7 exclusively at home and work for years to a Surface Pro 3 purchased this past December. Windows 8 was not difficult to pickup, and I find that I only use the desktop for very specific use cases (Lightroom and video work). I've just installed Windows 10 in a dual boot on the device...and while I'm not getting as emotional as some others, I agree with the overall sentiment. It just doesn't "feel" right on a device like the surface. Even with the keyboard attached, I'm still very likely to use the screen for navigation...this is likely the case for most laptops and 2-in-1's with touch screens. Current direction is certainly tempering my optimism for Win 10 release.

    I know changes/improvements are coming. But if you ask me today, ignoring all bugs, what OS do you want to use daily...I would instantly choose 8.1.

    Still excited to see how things improve from here, and hopefully that opinion will change.
    sjaak327, ETX808, cool8man and 1 others like this.
    01-29-2015 11:41 AM
  15. bschiav's Avatar
    The feature that necessitate an always visible Taskbar could easily be move to the notification center whihc is opened on caommand when needed.
    I know this idea won't happen, because the charms are already gone...but they should have kept the charms and had notification also slide out "behind" the charms. Imagine the current notification windows bumped further left so that there's room for the old charms. On desktop, access necessary charm functions from the taskbar (devices, share, etc.), to be functionally consistent (like having the notification button available in desktop).

    Basically, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The swipe actions should facilitate the functions of the taskbar when not in a "desktop" mode.
    Andrew Gordon likes this.
    01-29-2015 11:45 AM
  16. swanlee's Avatar
    I know this idea won't happen, because the charms are already gone...but they should have kept the charms and had notification also slide out "behind" the charms. Imagine the current notification windows bumped further left so that there's room for the old charms. On desktop, access necessary charm functions from the taskbar (devices, share, etc.), to be functionally consistent (like having the notification button available in desktop).

    Basically, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The swipe actions should facilitate the functions of the taskbar when not in a "desktop" mode.

    Yep it is crazy to have Desktop and Tablet mode but not properly utilize the GUI for each fucntion.

    Having the two modes is a great idea and may have saved Win 8 from a lot of grief when it came out if it also had a Desktop and Tablet mode that worked properly for each environment.

    Imagine if Win 8 detected no touch screen and booted directly to desktop with a modern Start Menu that was just an improvement over Win 7. And a Tablet mode that pretty much did what Win 8 did by default. That would have neutralized alot of the complaining from the desktop crowd.

    But not actually making a Tablet mode useful compared two Win 8.1 is a complete failure.
    01-29-2015 12:42 PM
  17. sjaak327's Avatar
    Hey All, happy to see such discussion around tablet mode and the taskbar. While I cannot discuss specifics of feature implementation or our roadmap (come on, you know I can't :) ) , I did want to say that your feedback is bubbling up to us, and to please continue to express it using the Windows Feedback app on the tech preview. That said, the taskbar isn't finalized, and we have a number of improvements already slated (again, I'm not going into specifics here). Just know that we're still months from release, improvements and changes are still coming (especially around user interface, that is always being refined), and we definitely are listening to your feedback. :)

    Thanks. I do indeed hope you guys aren't just listening to feedback but actually acting upon it. I am happy that the final release is still months away and I hope it will be enough to fix tablet mode.

    I would like to try and convince you guys to consider two separate UI approaches for Touch and Desktop, and no that doesn't mean being able to maximize the start screen, it means a separate UI.

    The way you seem to be going with the start menu is wrong and needs to be adjusted before it is to late.
    01-29-2015 02:04 PM
  18. Luigi Lop's Avatar
    Hey All, happy to see such discussion around tablet mode and the taskbar. While I cannot discuss specifics of feature implementation or our roadmap (come on, you know I can't :) ) , I did want to say that your feedback is bubbling up to us, and to please continue to express it using the Windows Feedback app on the tech preview. That said, the taskbar isn't finalized, and we have a number of improvements already slated (again, I'm not going into specifics here). Just know that we're still months from release, improvements and changes are still coming (especially around user interface, that is always being refined), and we definitely are listening to your feedback. :)

    as i said in the Insider forum(angelus_mortis), i wont install this on my upcoming windows tablet. I find the current tablet ui experience on windows 8.1 perfectly fine, while the one on windows 10 is unusable.
    Last edited by Luigi Lop; 01-29-2015 at 06:07 PM.
    01-29-2015 05:19 PM
  19. Luigi Lop's Avatar
    I post here the thoughs i expressed on the windows insider forums.

    I completely agree with the OP and the others in this thread in saying that this will surely be a downgrade to tablet users.
    I actually installed the TP on my notebook(i3 3th gen 2,4 ghz,8gb of ram, ssd) and i find it slower in all regards to w 8.1. The laptop feels sluggish and slow to respond, boot time is outrageous. The only nice thing is increased battery life, but if to connect to a wifi i have to wait 15 seconds before the panel opens up, it's not worth it.
    Also i'm about to buy a cheap w 8.1 tablet, and after playing around with this build i completely agree. I miss the charm bar on my laptop( i admit i only used it to turn off/sleep), especially in regards to the controls, the quick glance at battery/clock/wifi signal.
    The toggles do not work as intended. They are not a single- button solution to quickly be closed and be done with it, and we should like on wp8.1, be able to choose which toggles should be provided.
    Notifications about the system once clicked upon do absolutely nothing.
    The new small menus intended as charm replacement are completely ugly, uncomfortable to use, and very slow. As a suggestion for improvements, you could have an in-app charm bar, smaller, with less buttons, popping up from the side in a wp8.1 fashion, the same way some options are showed only in the lower bar. And keep the swipe from left to right.
    The new windows update is completely useless. You can't select which updates you wanna do and which you don't. I had an update loop where i installed manually the display adapter drivers, and where more up-to-date than those from w update. I was forced to uninstall them and let wupdate install his to solve the problem.
    Also, you can't click on updates to go directly to the knowledge base to learn what does these updates do, and you can't select the number either, so you're forced to do an awkward copy-by typing.
    You implemented a new control panel removing/transferring(ergo downgrading) functionality from the old one to the new one.
    So i'm not going to upgrade my new shining tablet to windows 10 if you don't give the option to have a tablet- only experience. Specially the taskbar should be gone from it.
    You nailed many, many things with the ui in windows 8. Then you slightly downgraded them going towards 8.1, but now the direction you-re going with windows 10 is very bad- you are making the same mistake you did with 8, taking away proved functionality(nobody ever said that w 8.1 on a tablet had an UI that did not make sense or wasn't perfect!) and forcing the "new way" as an holy grail.
    Please heed our pleas. Please do not make the same mistake again.
    You tried to make a tablet interface and shove it down the throat of the desktop users. Now you're doing the opposite. Please stop.

    And since someone from microsoft is reading this post, i add a general advise for all the platform that you really need to work on: loading times for the apps.
    Last edited by Luigi Lop; 01-29-2015 at 07:04 PM.
    01-29-2015 06:15 PM
  20. swanlee's Avatar
    I'm finding myself always trying to swipe through apps in win 10 only to get that stupid screen where my open apps are minimized and I need to pick between them.

    Again this is wasted movement. It is much easier and more natural to just swipe through my open apps then swipe and try and pick from a minimized set of icons of open apps.

    Literally with win 8.1 on a tablet if you think of how swipe should naturally work they just do. That is the beauty of it even if I do not know for sure if a swipe command is supported if it feels like a natural thing 9 times out of 10 it will work.

    In Win 10 Tablet mode nothing feels natural everything is 2 steps more than it should be. It is a frustrating experience to say the least.

    When using Tablet mode it really should just switch all swipe actions to be like win 8.1

    Just make a really good tutorial video instead of trying to add wasted visual queues to everything.

    Tablet GUI's should just naturally work and visually the GUI should get out of the way. Stop trying to shoe horn PITA visual queues that stop the flow of navigation on a tablet.

    In win 8.1 the GUI only appeared when you purposely wanted it to.
    Andrew Gordon likes this.
    01-30-2015 06:32 AM
  21. Paolo Cardelli's Avatar
    I'm finding myself always trying to swipe through apps in win 10 only to get that stupid screen where my open apps are minimized and I need to pick between them.

    Again this is wasted movement. It is much easier and more natural to just swipe through my open apps then swipe and try and pick from a minimized set of icons of open apps.

    Literally with win 8.1 on a tablet if you think of how swipe should naturally work they just do. That is the beauty of it even if I do not know for sure if a swipe command is supported if it feels like a natural thing 9 times out of 10 it will work.

    In Win 10 Tablet mode nothing feels natural everything is 2 steps more than it should be. It is a frustrating experience to say the least.

    When using Tablet mode it really should just switch all swipe actions to be like win 8.1

    Just make a really good tutorial video instead of trying to add wasted visual queues to everything.

    Tablet GUI's should just naturally work and visually the GUI should get out of the way. Stop trying to shoe horn PITA visual queues that stop the flow of navigation on a tablet.

    In win 8.1 the GUI only appeared when you purposely wanted it to.
    Ok.
    Now post all this HERE please, otherwise all those complaints will be useless.

    Thanks
    01-30-2015 10:40 AM
  22. swanlee's Avatar
    Ok.
    Now post all this HERE please, otherwise all those complaints will be useless.

    Thanks
    done
    01-30-2015 10:47 AM
  23. Stefan Holder's Avatar
    Don't mean to hijack your thread, but can someone point me to the uservoice to vote for Microsoft to allow Windows RT devices update to the Desktop less small tablet Windows 10 sku, instead of abandoning surface rt/2 users? Thanks!!
    Sent from my Lumia 1320 all the way from Jupiter.
    01-30-2015 06:02 PM
  24. cool8man's Avatar
    We may need to start organizing a Twitter and Reddit campaign to get the word out to other Windows 8 tablet users about what is coming. Windows 10 is taking us back to the Tablet PC era of forcing the desktop UI onto a touch screen. They don't seem to care at all about Windows Phone or Windows tablet users anymore. This Windows 10 interface is a massive downgrade from the current touch interface we have today. Microsoft wants to just sweep us under the rug like Surface 1 & 2 owners; forget we ever even existed. Next step will be for them to turn Surface Pro into an ultrabook. Most of the tech media is hostile to Windows touch screen devices so they are championing Microsoft's retreat from modern computing.
    Last edited by cool8man; 01-30-2015 at 11:02 PM.
    mjrtoo and Andrew Gordon like this.
    01-30-2015 10:38 PM
  25. mjrtoo's Avatar
    01-31-2015 12:57 AM
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