08-14-2015 09:13 PM
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  1. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    The only thing I'm worried about is the transcript of on an online dev response on someone's questions of the present taskbar at the bottom and that currently there was apparantly a high count of keeping the taskbar in tablet mode.
    We have seen quite a few changes being made seemingly because of 'user feedback'. Another one is the destruction of OneDrive usability with only online sync (of selected folders).

    The problem here seems to be that somehow, whoever is filtering this feedback is of the opinion that seeing quiet a few pieces of feedback on this means overall we would want this and disregard the possibility that there may be a much, much larger number of user just happy with how things are and not providing feedback as it's fine as-is.

    I know this sound dumb and stupid, but I really am getting the feeling this is actually what is going on right now.
    920Walker likes this.
    04-04-2015 04:30 PM
  2. Jas00555's Avatar
    C'mon guys, Windows 7 failed on tablets for a reason, let's not repeat history!
    And Windows 8 succeeded?
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-04-2015 04:31 PM
  3. swanlee's Avatar
    And Windows 8 succeeded?
    Win 8 was sold on millions more tablets then were sold with Win 7. Surface 3 pro probably sold more by itself than all Win 7 tablets combined.
    920Walker and Dot Matrix like this.
    04-04-2015 04:58 PM
  4. jhoff80's Avatar
    The next Insiders build really needs an updated Continuum UX, or that's it. I'm afraid Windows 10 will be a lost cause on Surface and other tabs. I find it hard to believe anyone inside Microsoft finds a Windows 7 workflow more "efficient" than the Immersive UX of Windows 8.1 on anything other than a desktop. I was really excited for Continuum, but now I see that Microsoft is running in fear for reasons unknown. C'mon guys, Windows 7 failed on tablets for a reason, let's not repeat history!

    * The always on taskbar adds no functionality, takes up space, and gets in the way.
    * Spartan doesn't offer a chromeless UX, or true fullscreen UX, again the controls just get in the way, and waste space for those that want a full screen UX.
    * The vertical layout of apps and Start Screen reduces readability on *horizontal* tabs (and desktop monitors!), and reduces the amount of tiles that can be viewed at once.
    * All Apps is again left to a sliver of real estate, and again gives me the cramped feeling which made me hate the old Start Menu in Windows XP and Windows 7. I have a whole screen full of pixels that are going to waste here!
    * OneNote preview is a complete step backwards since the loss of the fullscreen UX, and the radial menu.

    I believe that Windows 10 could be a great OS, it's taking the best of Windows 7, but needlessly threw away the best of Windows 8.1! Don't make that mistake!
    ​I never liked the OneNote app in the first place (preferring the desktop version), but other than that I completely agree. I've said before elsewhere, but it really feels like the team currently working on tablet mode hasn't ever used a Windows 8 tablet and has no idea what makes that a great tablet experience.


    In the Reddit AMA, the Surface team answered that they "find awesome benefits" in Windows 10... I said it there in response, but I hope that's only the happy face they're showing on the outside, and that internal communication is far different. Right now, they're set up for disaster, and the possibility that Microsoft might not realize it is crazy (especially considering that all of the feedback in the app on Continuum is negative.)
    920Walker, Joe920 and Dot Matrix like this.
    04-04-2015 05:14 PM
  5. jhoff80's Avatar
    We have seen quite a few changes being made seemingly because of 'user feedback'. Another one is the destruction of OneDrive usability with only online sync (of selected folders).

    The problem here seems to be that somehow, whoever is filtering this feedback is of the opinion that seeing quiet a few pieces of feedback on this means overall we would want this and disregard the possibility that there may be a much, much larger number of user just happy with how things are and not providing feedback as it's fine as-is.

    I know this sound dumb and stupid, but I really am getting the feeling this is actually what is going on right now.
    Honestly, the whole Feedback program reeks of a publicity thing right now. "We're listening this time guys, we promise." Meanwhile, the actual results so far have matched exactly what we saw in Windows 8 previews: Microsoft is doing what they want, and the feedback is only lip service (so far). I hope that changes. I see no reason to think it will.
    920Walker likes this.
    04-04-2015 05:17 PM
  6. Jas00555's Avatar
    Win 8 was sold on millions more tablets then were sold with Win 7. Surface 3 pro probably sold more by itself than all Win 7 tablets combined.
    So? Blackberry sold more phones than Amazon, but neither of those are considered a success. With only 5% market share, I'd hardly call Windows 8 on tablets a success.
    04-04-2015 05:31 PM
  7. theefman's Avatar
    And Windows 8 succeeded?


    Which Windows 7 tablet business resulted in a $1 billion quarter?
    04-04-2015 05:37 PM
  8. Jas00555's Avatar
    Which Windows 7 tablet business resulted in a $1 billion quarter?
    $1 billion in revenue, not profit. Only in the last quarter did the Surface division turn a profit.

    But that's completely beside the point. What's the point of Microsoft making some money if the market share remains tiny and developers continue to ignore the platform?
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-04-2015 05:43 PM
  9. theefman's Avatar
    $1 billion in revenue, not profit. Only in the last quarter did the Surface division turn a profit.

    But that's completely beside the point. What's the point of Microsoft making some money if the market share remains tiny and developers continue to ignore the platform?


    Wait, so making money isn't the point of a business anymore? And they actually have had more than 1 $1b quarter, which basically proves the point that Windows 8 tablets have been far more successful than Windows 7 versions.
    04-04-2015 05:48 PM
  10. jhoff80's Avatar
    $1 billion in revenue, not profit. Only in the last quarter did the Surface division turn a profit.

    But that's completely beside the point. What's the point of Microsoft making some money if the market share remains tiny and developers continue to ignore the platform?
    ​Nobody is saying that desktop mode didn't have to change for greater mass market appeal. That doesn't mean that tablet mode has to be completely destroyed in order to do so. There's already a mode switch button/trigger. So why have a 'tablet mode' that is so completely terrible?

    I mean, look at the satisfaction numbers. People who have Surface devices (in other words, people who experience Windows 8.x on a tablet) love it. People who had Windows XP Tablet Edition tablets? Probably switched to an iPad for the better experience years ago. ;)
    920Walker likes this.
    04-04-2015 05:50 PM
  11. Jas00555's Avatar
    Wait, so making money isn't the point of a business anymore?
    Now you're just being pedantic so you can dodge the original point.

    And they actually have had more than 1 $1b quarter, which basically proves the point that Windows 8 tablets have been far more successful than Windows 7 versions.
    See my point above. Saying that Windows 8 has been more successful than Windows 7 is like saying that BlackBerry has been more successful than Firefox OS, therefore its all ok. I don't even see how the lack of adoption of Windows 8 is such a controversial statement for you.
    04-04-2015 05:52 PM
  12. Jas00555's Avatar
    ​Nobody is saying that desktop mode didn't have to change for greater mass market appeal. That doesn't mean that tablet mode has to be completely destroyed in order to do so. There's already a mode switch button/trigger. So why have a 'tablet mode' that is so completely terrible?

    I mean, look at the satisfaction numbers. People who have Surface devices (in other words, people who experience Windows 8.x on a tablet) love it. People who had Windows XP Tablet Edition tablets? Probably switched to an iPad for the better experience years ago. ;)
    Those people still only represent 5% of the market. It should be obvious that unless Microsoft wants to be stuck in single digits forever, that Windows 8 style UI is not the way to go. You can argue that you may not like the new tablet UI, but things have to change.
    04-04-2015 05:57 PM
  13. jhoff80's Avatar
    Those people still only represent 5% of the market. It should be obvious that unless Microsoft wants to be stuck in single digits forever, that Windows 8 style UI is not the way to go. You can argue that you may not like the new tablet UI, but things have to change.
    First of all, almost nobody using Windows 10 likes the tablet UI. Just check Desktop>Continuum in Windows Feedback. Secondly, that's still faulty logic. Surface sales, while still small have been consistently growing. Those people who do have a Surface are consistently happy with their experience. (And let's keep in mind that Windows 7 tablets had about 1% market share too). Windows 8 wasn't perfect, but it gave a great tablet experience that people are happy with, and Microsoft should be building from. Instead, they're chopping the legs out underneath the Surface and other Windows tablets.

    Again, (and I don't know how much more clearly I can say this) EVERYONE GETS IT. Windows 8 on desktops and laptops was a commercial failure, no matter if people here liked it or not. Going after those users for the desktop makes sense.

    What we're talking about here is going from a tablet strategy with 3 years of positive growth and very high customer satisfaction ratings to a tablet strategy with literally a decade of failure and dissatisfaction, and that makes no sense at all.
    Joe920 and 920Walker like this.
    04-04-2015 06:09 PM
  14. Jas00555's Avatar
    First of all, almost nobody using Windows 10 likes the tablet UI. Just check Desktop>Continuum in Windows Feedback. Secondly, that's still faulty logic. Surface sales, while still small have been consistently growing. Those people who do have a Surface are consistently happy with their experience. (And let's keep in mind that Windows 7 tablets had about 1% market share too). Windows 8 wasn't perfect, but it gave a great tablet experience that people are happy with, and Microsoft should be building from. Instead, they're chopping the legs out underneath the Surface and other Windows tablets.

    Again, (and I don't know how much more clearly I can say this) EVERYONE GETS IT. Windows 8 on desktops and laptops was a commercial failure, no matter if people here liked it or not. Going after those users for the desktop makes sense.

    What we're talking about here is going from a tablet strategy with 3 years of positive growth and very high customer satisfaction ratings to a tablet strategy with literally a decade of failure and dissatisfaction, and that makes no sense at all.
    You're still missing a very crucial detail: Everything you just said only made 5% of users buy a Windows tablet.

    "very high growth"

    By percentages, maybe. But considering Windows 7 tablets had about 1% of the market and Windows 8 tablets have about 5%, this "positive growth" is only about 1.33% PER YEAR. If Windows 8 had a high satisfaction rating among consumers, it would be far higher than that. Instead Windows 8, even on tablets, was shunned by consumers.

    I would honestly argue that the majority of consumers bought into Windows 8 tablets because of the price after Microsoft lowered licensing fees for Windows and not because Windows 8 actually had a high consumer satisfaction rating. Instead, you've got a small group of people who actually like the UI and are now complaining because a Technical Preview doesn't work as well on their tablets.

    Do you see my point now? Regardless about what you think about the current UI compared to W10 UI, 95% of consumers disagree with you.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-04-2015 07:35 PM
  15. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    You're still missing a very crucial detail: Everything you just said only made 5% of users buy a Windows tablet.

    "very high growth"

    By percentages, maybe. But considering Windows 7 tablets had about 1% of the market and Windows 8 tablets have about 5%, this "positive growth" is only about 1.33% PER YEAR. If Windows 8 had a high satisfaction rating among consumers, it would be far higher than that. Instead Windows 8, even on tablets, was shunned by consumers.

    I would honestly argue that the majority of consumers bought into Windows 8 tablets because of the price after Microsoft lowered licensing fees for Windows and not because Windows 8 actually had a high consumer satisfaction rating. Instead, you've got a small group of people who actually like the UI and are now complaining because a Technical Preview doesn't work as well on their tablets.

    Do you see my point now? Regardless about what you think about the current UI compared to W10 UI, 95% of consumers disagree with you.
    I agree with you. The main reason I bought a Windows 8.1 tablet is because it only cost $70. I'm not using the Technical Preview, though. I'll wait for the official Windows 10 release. However, I doubt if I'll have any problems with the UI.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    Jas00555 likes this.
    04-04-2015 07:41 PM
  16. Dot Matrix's Avatar
    And Windows 8 succeeded?
    Surface Pro 3 says yes, it did.
    04-04-2015 11:22 PM
  17. Dot Matrix's Avatar
    First of all, almost nobody using Windows 10 likes the tablet UI. Just check Desktop>Continuum in Windows Feedback.
    I wonder if that's the reason why we haven't seen it updated? Maybe the resounding negative impact is causing concern at Redmond.
    04-04-2015 11:23 PM
  18. Guzzler3's Avatar
    I agree with you. The main reason I bought a Windows 8.1 tablet is because it only cost $70. I'm not using the Technical Preview, though. I'll wait for the official Windows 10 release. However, I doubt if I'll have any problems with the UI.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    Oh trust me. You WILL have issues with a tablet if they keep the current W10 tablet UI. I would HIGHLY recommend anyone with a tablet, that is capable of running W10TP to load it, and try it before you make any comments.
    jhoff80 likes this.
    04-05-2015 10:57 AM
  19. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    Oh trust me. You WILL have issues with a tablet if they keep the current W10 tablet UI.
    Since she only bought it for the price (?!) I guess she could not care less and does not actually use the tablet for anything. So she will fumble along all hunkey dorey as if it's not a big thing..
    04-05-2015 03:23 PM
  20. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    By percentages, maybe. But considering Windows 7 tablets had about 1% of the market and Windows 8 tablets have about 5%, this "positive growth" is only about 1.33% PER YEAR.
    Dude, going from 1 to 5% market share would mean you increase the number of users by 225% provided the total number of users stays the same. So that number is likely quite a bit higher.

    And all this has _nothing_ to do with what we are discussing here. But I have a feeling you know that and are not really here to contribute anything but flame bait. So with that said I suggest we just let you be and don't feed the troll..
    04-05-2015 03:26 PM
  21. Jas00555's Avatar
    Dude, going from 1 to 5% market share would mean you increase the number of users by 225% provided the total number of users stays the same. So that number is likely quite a bit higher.

    And all this has _nothing_ to do with what we are discussing here. But I have a feeling you know that and are not really here to contribute anything but flame bait. So with that said I suggest we just let you be and don't feed the troll..
    Um... 1 + 1.33 + 1.33 + 1.33 = 5 lmao. It's also very relevant to the conversation since I was responding to the claim that Windows 8 succeeded because it did better than Windows 7 tablets.

    Also, it's against the site rules to call someone a troll. Keep that in mind.
    04-05-2015 03:34 PM
  22. michail71's Avatar
    I am not putting it on my SP3 yet (too many issues) but I was concerned with the taskbar always there in tablet mode. but on my build on the desktop . if I maximize an app it does go completely full screen - stuff like Zinio or flipboard or kindle - which is exactly how i would expect a reading experience to be on a tablet
    I've noted that too but not all apps seem to do that.

    On a tablet I think I'd like to see it side or top aligned and swiped out. There would be too much chance to accidentally press it on the bottom if hand holding. But it seems like it can't be moved at all.
    04-05-2015 04:19 PM
  23. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    Also, it's against the site rules to call someone a troll. Keep that in mind.
    Not calling anyone anything, just suggesting we don't feed em..
    04-05-2015 04:40 PM
  24. michail71's Avatar
    I suspect MS has over reacted and is focusing too much on what the community wants. Great design and change comes from individuals, not focus groups.

    I've been at companies where the executives are hanging on the focus group's surveys and ignoring the creative geniuses they employed.
    ahumeniy likes this.
    04-05-2015 10:18 PM
  25. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Since she only bought it for the price (?!) I guess she could not care less and does not actually use the tablet for anything. So she will fumble along all hunkey dorey as if it's not a big thing..
    The main feature I need is Word Flow keyboard. A Windows 8.1 tablet is not very easy to type on without it. I'd use it more often if typing weren't a chore.
    pankaj981, Jas00555 and jdballard like this.
    04-05-2015 11:34 PM
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