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03-25-2015 02:41 PM
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  1. Jas00555's Avatar
    Here is Joe Belifore stating the taskbar is intended in tablet mode,

    Guys Win 10 is launching in a few months, we have a pretty clear direction for what they intend Win 10 to be for tablets and that is pretty much going to act like Win 7 on a tablet which was a horrible experience and a huge downgrade from Win 8 on tablets. Now is not the time to be lax and think they are going to fix everything. If we wait for release it will be to late for major changes.

    Full start screen is gone, Charms are gone, Taskbar is mandatory, alot of swipe commands are missing. This is not getting fixed in a few short months and appears to be how MS intends it to work.



    joebelfiore ‏@joebelfiore

    @benstoic yep, we intend taskbar to be present in tablet mode. Thats quick access to start menu (4 pcs w no HW button), + Cortana, taskview
    By "in a few months", you mean almost half of a year from now. There is tons of time to tweak the UI. Just look at how much they've got done so far.

    "full start screen is gone"

    No, its not. That's a lie.
    03-20-2015 06:59 PM
  2. kwill's Avatar
    I have to agree with the OP and other comments about tablet productivity being completely wrecked so far with Win 10. I always jump on early, beta releases, to include Windows 8. And keep them until they go RTM. I put Windows 10 on my SP3, and by the next day I was back to 8.1. The gestures are shot, no charms bar (probably one of the best and most useful things ever added to any OS). IE without metro is painful to use for touch. And Spartan seems like it may be better for touch, but it won't be specifically built for it. Like another comment said, they changed everything just to stop the whiners about being confused on going from a full screen start menu to the desktop they were familiar with. Hit the damn windows key on your keyboard or click the windows icon in bottom left and just stay there. No more confusion.... geez. Was it really worth the total 360 being done for all the tablet friendly elements?
    03-20-2015 08:32 PM
  3. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    Was it really worth the total 360 being done for all the tablet friendly elements?
    Pretty sure you mean a total 180 there, but anyway.. I agree with what you are saying. We're right back at worse than WIN7 right now. I started the hashtag #werebackwithXP on twitter ;)
    03-21-2015 04:48 AM
  4. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    "full start screen is gone"

    No, its not. That's a lie.
    Yes, there's the registry hack in the TP, but rest assured it will be gone when W10 goes RTM
    03-21-2015 04:50 AM
  5. swanlee's Avatar
    Yes, there's the registry hack in the TP, but rest assured it will be gone when W10 goes RTM
    They removed the reg hack in the latest build, no way to get win 8 start screen back
    03-21-2015 07:14 AM
  6. Jas00555's Avatar
    What are you two talking about? I've got a full start screen right now on my tablet. Are you referring to getting rid of the title bar?
    03-21-2015 08:41 AM
  7. R0bR's Avatar
    I also have concerns about tablet mode or lack of it, even going to the Windows Feedback app shows most of peoples complaints are in regards to Desktop. There isn't even a specific Tablet category to provide feedback in and very few complaints about it anywhere else to show MS that there is a need for change.
    03-21-2015 08:48 AM
  8. swanlee's Avatar
    What are you two talking about? I've got a full start screen right now on my tablet. Are you referring to getting rid of the title bar?
    It's not full screen with the taskbar stuck at the bottom or the desktop centered app list on the side. The current start menu is centered around desktop users and even maximized is not full screen and does not function on tablets as well as the full metro start screen of Win 8.1. Also scrolling up/down is not nearly as efficient as the left/right scrolling of Win 8.1
    03-21-2015 09:18 AM
  9. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    What are you two talking about? I've got a full start screen right now on my tablet. Are you referring to getting rid of the title bar?
    Having the startmenu go full screen by default when you select tablet mode is in no way the same as the start screen in WIN8.x

    Have you even ever user WIN8.x?
    jhoff80 likes this.
    03-21-2015 03:05 PM
  10. Jas00555's Avatar
    Having the startmenu go full screen by default when you select tablet mode is in no way the same as the start screen in WIN8.x

    Have you even ever user WIN8.x?
    Yes, I've got it on every one of my devices including my desktop, Surface, and small tablet. I frankly don't see what you're complaining about as it seems pretty much the same to me.
    03-21-2015 03:53 PM
  11. Jas00555's Avatar
    It's not full screen with the taskbar stuck at the bottom or the desktop centered app list on the side. The current start menu is centered around desktop users and even maximized is not full screen and does not function on tablets as well as the full metro start screen of Win 8.1. Also scrolling up/down is not nearly as efficient as the left/right scrolling of Win 8.1
    So because the taskbar is there, it doesn't count? That's an odd way to justify when its made for tablets. Either way, the tablet mode makes the taskbar work great. Just because they're not gigantic squares doesn't mean they're hard to touch.

    I'm also not seeing how one way of scrolling is more or less efficient. I actually find up/down with the app list to the side to be more way more efficient than Windows 8.X.
    03-21-2015 03:55 PM
  12. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    I frankly don't see what you're complaining about as it seems pretty much the same to me.
    OK.. I know ur trolling now.. Nevermind man..
    03-21-2015 04:34 PM
  13. Jas00555's Avatar
    OK.. I know ur trolling now.. Nevermind man..
    No, I seriously don't get what the complaining is about. Is it because its different? To me, Windows 10 already makes a lot more sense for tablets. One of the thing I appreciate is when I'm in tablet mode, Modern apps and desktop apps are treated almost equally. When I swipe from the side to get the current app list, I'm able to easily close desktop apps with just a tap as opposed to going to the desktop and having to hit the tiny X in the corner.

    If you have anything constructive to say, besides "trolling" (which is against the site rules by the way (; ) then I'd be glad to hear why you think Windows 10 is bad on tablets. Really, the only thing I'm missing is a touch centric browser and I'd be good to go.
    03-21-2015 05:10 PM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    OK.. I know ur trolling now.. Nevermind man..
    I have not yet used the W10 TP, so I have no idea what the problem is, but I too would appreciate a comprehensive explanation. I'm not trolling. Just asking.
    03-21-2015 05:31 PM
  15. kwill's Avatar
    Pretty sure you mean a total 180 there, but anyway.. I agree with what you are saying. We're right back at worse than WIN7 right now. I started the hashtag #werebackwithXP on twitter ;)
    Yeah, 180.....wasn't thinking. It'll be a 360 in two years when they realize they had a good tablet mode in Windows 8.1 and start reimplementing all the elements from it in Windows 12. Lol
    anon(5335899) likes this.
    03-21-2015 06:03 PM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that this was Technical PREVIEW. Did anybody read the advisory on Microsoft's website?






    A preview for PC experts

    Windows 10 Technical Preview is here today, but it’s a long way from done. We’re going to make it faster, better, more fun at parties...you get the idea. Join the Windows Insider Program to make sure you get all the new features that are on the way. If you’re okay with a moving target and don’t want to miss out on the latest stuff, keep reading. Technical Preview could be just your thing.

    Download and install the preview only if you


    • Want to try out software that’s still in development and like sharing your opinion about it.
    • Don’t mind lots of updates or a UI design that might change significantly over time.
    • Really know your way around a PC and feel comfortable troubleshooting problems, backing up data, formatting a hard drive, installing an operating system from scratch, or restoring your old one if necessary.
    • Know what an ISO file is and how to use it.
    • Aren't installing it on your everyday computer.


    We're not kidding about the expert thing. So if you think BIOS is a new plant-based fuel, Tech Preview may not be right for you.
    03-21-2015 06:06 PM
  17. swanlee's Avatar
    Yes it is a technical preview but as stated a million times this is how MS intends Win 10 to function on tablets, Permanent taskbar, charm bars removed, reduction in swipe functions compared to Win 8, removal of the Start screen and replaced by a desktop centric start menu. This is what they have talked about and presented in every demonstration of Win 10 and this is what the Devs have said it will work like when released.

    This is how it is going to work once it goes into RTM in just a few months and it would be silly to just sit idly bye when it is more than obvious that the Win 10 experience is going to be much worse than Win 8 on tablets. Now is the time to speak up about these issues while they still might have a little bit of time to fix them.

    Waiting till release to judge the Tablet functions will be to late for any fix.
    03-21-2015 09:33 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    They had to start somewhere. If enough people complain, they might adjust some things which is why they warn about multiple UI changes. Did you make a 8.1 ISO on a thumb drive before installing 10? Shame on you if you didn't, it was also listed as a to-do before installing since there's no going back.
    Sent from my Slime Green Lumia 1520
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-21-2015 09:48 PM
  19. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    No, I seriously don't get what the complaining is about.

    • No fast app switching by swiping in from left
    • Charms bar gone
    • Status bas visible at all time, not even possible to auto-hide in tablet mode
    • App list constantly visible in start menu
    • Vertical scrolling looks awful in landscape orientation
    • Does not default back to start menu when you close last app (you get a blocked out desktop
    • Leaves the active app visible in background when you open start menu (makes for very messy and sometimes unreadable screen)
    • Re positioning of tiles is clunky at best
    • No more moving of tile groups in one go
    • No more pinch to see all tiles
    • App list is limited in current implementation, no index



    And there's more. Basically, how tablet mode works is they open a new desktop for each app and run everything full screen. That is it.

    We went back from a great new way of thinking and potentially great and useful touch UI/UX to a tacked on extension of the start menu. I'll admit that for some WIN8 may have been too big a step forward in one go but we're now back to worse than WIN7 IMO.
    paulsalter likes this.
    03-22-2015 04:59 AM
  20. alexander0311's Avatar
    imo i think w10 should have as default start menu for desktops and 2in1. and with that tablet mode you get the best of w10 on a 2in1(aka full start screen and maximized aplications only when needed or when you manually make them). BUT ALSO an option for start screen, just to be there for users who want it. more options, more customizations, thats the key ms is not seeing.

    on the other hand, on tablet things should be vice-versa. start screen (and tablet mode switched on) as default, start menu as an option.

    moreover, they could edit startscreen to vertical scrolling, just to satisfy their need of having an unified experience, since w10 dumps horizontal scrolling.

    edit: about task bar, why dont they improve its auto-hide option and make it more viable? then they can add that autohide option dafault on on tablets and on tablet mode, and default off on desktop mode. plus, taskbar activation on tablet mode could be just as navigation bar on phones(swipe up), and on desktop mode(if taskbar auto-hide manually activated) you could bring it up they way we brought up charms bar on w8/8.1.

    thats how things should work in my opinion. its very simple.
    Last edited by alexander0311; 03-22-2015 at 06:01 AM.
    920Walker likes this.
    03-22-2015 05:49 AM
  21. Jas00555's Avatar
    [LIST][*]No fast app switching by swiping in from left
    We must be using a different Technical Preview then, because when I swipe from the left, I get a list of my open apps that allow me to switch just as easily as I did before.
    [*]Charms bar gone
    Thankfully! The Charms were the most cumbersome and annoying thing about Windows 8. I mean seriously, why should I have to swipe from the right, hit devices, play, then select my Xbox to get something to play on my TV? With Windows 10 build 10041, all I have to do is swipe from the right, hit media connect, and there, I've just skipped two steps. Don't even get me started on how annoying it was to print.
    [*]Status bas visible at all time, not even possible to auto-hide in tablet mode
    I suppose someone might find this annoying, but the ability to easily start typing in Cortana or easily getting back to the start screen makes the taskbar not a big deal for me.
    [*]App list constantly visible in start menu
    And that's a bad thing? Why should there be two different screens when they could easily be combined into one? I don't understand how this is a bad thing at all.
    [*]Vertical scrolling looks awful in landscape orientation
    That's your personal preference, and I disagree, so we'll have to leave it at that.
    [*]Does not default back to start menu when you close last app (you get a blocked out desktop
    I've noticed that too and it's obviously a bug, not the way things will be (that is, if we're talking about the same thing)
    [*]Re positioning of tiles is clunky at best
    and it's also a technical preview, so that will obviously work better in RTM.
    [*]No more moving of tile groups in one go
    Again, technical preview

    Actually...
    [*]No more pinch to see all tiles[*]App list is limited in current implementation, no index
    Both of these can also be attributed to the technical preview, and they'll surely fix these in the 6 months they've given themselves.
    03-22-2015 12:09 PM
  22. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    Really, the "It's a TP" argument is no longer valid, the choices made are definite by now and there's no way back for this release.

    I much preferred the quick flick with my thumb to swipe through the open apps. I could also easily select any open app without having to release the tablet with my left hand. Closing apps which are suspended when not in the front is pointless really.

    The 'fix' Microsoft thought up for a potential multitasking issue was to basically sell the idea of having multiple desktops as being cool and then just design 'tablet mode' around it which basically means that an app opens on a separate desktop in full screen by default. It's the easy way out really.

    The main excuse for the task bar we were given is it provides easy access to the start menu/button on devices with no physical button. This is a big bag of BS as this is _exactly_ what the charms bar did, it also provided a unified and standard way of accessing the relevant settings/preferences for what you are doing at the time.

    Moving tile groups and pinch zoom out to see all tiles will not come back as we do no longer have a start screen. The Start Menu doe snot have that functionality and won't. It has nothing to do with being a TP, it was YA design choice which greatly reduces the touch UX.

    WIN8.x has a clean, clear and great touch experience, WIN10 has none of that, it has a setting which forces all desktop action to full screen, nothing more nothing less. From the moment I saw the 'mouse/keyboard improvements' in WIN8.1 I knew MSFT was going to f*ck it up and they have. There's simply no time for MSFT to fix this even if they want to so why bother. At best we will get back what was lost now in the next version of windows in 2 years or so.

    I was planning to get a next gen Surface end of the year to replace my desktop but really do not see the point now. I think the touch/tablet experience on <8inch tablets and phones will be fine, on the larger screens it's going to be a big let down so why invest in that.

    And we are 3-6 months away from _release_ which means at best we'll see one more TP before going RC and RTM
    Last edited by paulheu; 03-22-2015 at 06:07 PM.
    03-22-2015 05:43 PM
  23. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that this was Technical PREVIEW. Did anybody read the advisory on Microsoft's website?



    • Want to try out software thats still in development and like sharing your opinion about it.
    • Dont mind lots of updates or a UI design that might change significantly over time.
    Yes, anyone who actually understand anything about a development cycle like this understands that 6 months before release there will not be room for any major changes. What we have now is pretty much what we will get in the release with at best some cosmetic changes. But the core stuff is done and locked.

    The quote you are using here was likely written many months ago when the TP idea was set up and prepared and most of this stuff was still fluid. This does no longer apply now as the key choices were made well before we got January TP and all it does now is allow MSFT to fix the top layer.

    The point made in this thread about the removal of key touch UI/UX components is a done deal and there is no way these could be brought back in even if MSFT were to come to heir senses and see this is going nowhere fast.
    03-22-2015 06:13 PM
  24. astondg's Avatar
    Thankfully! The Charms were the most cumbersome and annoying thing about Windows 8. I mean seriously, why should I have to swipe from the right, hit devices, play, then select my Xbox to get something to play on my TV? With Windows 10 build 10041, all I have to do is swipe from the right, hit media connect, and there, I've just skipped two steps. Don't even get me started on how annoying it was to print.
    For me they are one of my favourite things. Ok so Windows 10 might be even more streamlined (but surely you need 3 steps? How do you select between multiple devices? I haven't used the TP on a tablet) but the Charms in Windows 8 simplified and unified the same tasks over Windows 7. I definitely wouldn't call them cumbersome and annoying. How did you project to your Xbox from each different application in Windows 7?

    Printing? Ctrl-P works as it always has and otherwise Swipe -> Devices -> Print isn't that much harder than trying to hit File -> Print with your finger in a desktop app.

    The Share Charm is also one of my favourites, it's so easy to send stuff to other people or other apps (like Reading List, OneNote, Xbox Music, Facebook and many others).

    The Charms may require an extra step or two for some tasks, over a desktop app, but they are consistent, they work very easily with touch or mouse, they have keyboard shortcuts for desktop users, and they offer a range of functionality across all apps.

    I'm not saying Windows 10 is wrong here, I haven't used it on a tablet, but I'm saying that 'The Charms were the most cumbersome and annoying thing about Windows 8' is not a universally accepted statement.
    03-22-2015 06:38 PM
  25. ahumeniy's Avatar
    I see a mixed message here. Microsoft said when they presented Windows 10 they will bring a tailored experience for each device and they won't do as Windows 8 when they forced a touch UI on desktop users, but all I've seen so far in Windows 10 is the opposide, a desktop UI forced on touch users. I really hope they have the touch-focused tailored experience hidden somewhere, on internal testing or something like that.
    03-23-2015 10:43 AM
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