03-25-2015 02:41 PM
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  1. swanlee's Avatar
    They had to start somewhere. If enough people complain, they might adjust some things which is why they warn about multiple UI changes. Did you make a 8.1 ISO on a thumb drive before installing 10? Shame on you if you didn't, it was also listed as a to-do before installing since there's no going back.
    Sent from my Slime Green Lumia 1520

    They could have started with Win 8's GUI and gone from there. It's not like they didn't have a Tablet oriented GUI interface that they have worked on for the last few years.

    Tablet mode = Win 8.1 with tweaks
    Desktop mode = Win 10

    Done
    fatclue_98 and 920Walker like this.
    03-23-2015 11:40 AM
  2. swanlee's Avatar
    I see a mixed message here. Microsoft said when they presented Windows 10 they will bring a tailored experience for each device and they won't do as Windows 8 when they forced a touch UI on desktop users, but all I've seen so far in Windows 10 is the opposide, a desktop UI forced on touch users. I really hope they have the touch-focused tailored experience hidden somewhere, on internal testing or something like that.
    The problem is EVERY presentation of Win 10 has been pretty much what we've seen now. Even when they say they are showing of recent build that won;t make it to the public it is still the same Desktop like Gui shoved onto a tablet. Joe B even demoed and 8 inch tablet with the dang taskbar at the bottom and acted like it was amazing.

    Their is every indication that Win 10 is actually what they INTEND for tablets and it probably won't get sorted out till enough people complain about it.
    03-23-2015 11:44 AM
  3. fatclue_98's Avatar
    They could have started with Win 8's GUI and gone from there. It's not like they didn't have a Tablet oriented GUI interface that they have worked on for the last few years.

    Tablet mode = Win 8.1 with tweaks
    Desktop mode = Win 10

    Done
    True, but there's the desktop crowd who was quite vocal about the switch to a touch-favorable UI when W8 was released. Many businesses, which are the core cash cows for MS, were still using XP until support was eliminated. This group cannot be forsaken just to satisfy the general consumer. Windows 10 is going to be a unified experience for all and compromises will have to be made. Feedback isn't going to come just from us, I'm sure the enterprise crowd has a bigger piece of Microsoft's ear.

    We can discuss this till the cows come home but the most important thing to note is that Windows cannot be seen as fragmented if this one-size-fits-all experiment is to succeed. Personally, I'm not a fan of the new UI. It looks too much like iOS with different locations all over the screen for the same function. I could use WP7 blindfolded because everything was always in the same place and no thumb hunting was needed. I always knew the 3 dots were in the lower right corner, regardless of app.
    03-23-2015 11:54 AM
  4. swanlee's Avatar
    It's silly their are TWO modes in Win 10 Desktop and Tablet, both user types should be able to get what they want out of each mode but instead it seems they are screwing things up for both types of users.

    Tablet users are getting the real screw job since a touch interface and a smaller screen are difficult to work around the present issues with Win 10 in tablet mode.

    They simply did not need to mess with the Tablet Gui interface with Win 10 in Tablet mode. Desktop mode could very easily be just what Win 10 looks like now VS tablet mode looking like Win 8.1.

    Regardless of all the complaining desktop users they did not have to crap things up for Tablet users.

    you don;t have to **** up the Tablet GUi to please Desktop users unless you are just being spiteful.
    03-23-2015 12:19 PM
  5. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    The argument that this disaster waiting to happen is for the sake of business is simply nonsense. The desktop in WIN8.1 is much more solid and smooth than the WIN7 one with a much improved scheduling and other core functions under the hood. Performance in a virtual environment is also _much_ better on WIN8.1. This experience is mostly the same on WIN10, desktop use is just fine and I have no issue with that at all. Enterprise really could not care less as long as they can run Office. Being in the business I am in I know that as far as server OS goes 2012 R2 is currently the big player with 2008 some way behind.

    That MSFT made mistakes (huge ones) in introducing the touch UI/UX in WIN8 is obvious, it was not due to the interface being bad though (with some exceptions) but more that MSFT seems unable to sell anything they dream up, stuff which is often way ahead of its time and has a very high innovation factor.

    Ever since the first update and even more in WIN8.1 the back peddling has started and now we are basically back where we were with WIN7. The compromises made simply boil down to a botched attempt to keep the live tiles in and not alienating the store apps completely.

    The thing is that we know that at release devices with a screen <8inch will all have the 'mobile' UI while everything else will be what we see now.

    Your remark about the 3 dots in WP7 basically makes the point a lot of us here are making, in WIN8.1 all the important stuff (preferences/share/play to/start) were _always_ in the same place and available with the same single thumb swipe.

    In WIN8 the startscreen was the core of the OS, everything came back and was nicely integrated there including desktop. Now we're back at a desktop centred OS with the touch 'experience' tagged on for good measure.
    03-23-2015 12:32 PM
  6. Goosinurwife's Avatar
    Why get off the fast ring just so I can be stuck with crappy desktop features longer? If anything I want to get on the daily release ring so Tablet fixes can get to me quicker.

    Win 10 launches in July and their has been every indication from the devs and Joe B that this is the intended way Win 10 will work on tablets.

    Mandatory taskbar even in tablet mode, charm bars gone, no swipe ahead to scroll through apps, no Metro IE, no full screen Start like Win 8 etc.

    What makes Win 10 bad on Tablets is not anything glitchy or bugs it is the actual intended design of Win 10 on tablets that is a huge step back from Win 8.

    The Win 8 GUI got out of the way on tablets and that is the way it should be, Win 10 on tablets shoves gui elements in your face you don;t need whihc takes up screen space and swipes are not nearly as natural as Win 8
    what needs to be done is completely nuke all the tablet crap and make it a full desktop os something ppl will love nothin a tablet os thats gona be a thing of the past cuz no 1 buys tablets anymore
    Last edited by Goosinurwife; 03-23-2015 at 01:20 PM. Reason: full of spellin errors cuz i just woke up an im still asleep
    03-23-2015 01:19 PM
  7. swanlee's Avatar
    Are you on crack? Win 8.1 tablets are really great and much more functional than IPads or Android Tablets and the Surface line is selling really well. Having a full real OS is a good thing even having a desktop on a tablet makes it much more versatile. However their is no reason that the Tablet GUI has to be nuked just because desktop users whined like little babies about their start menu.

    It's more than obvious your trolling cause computing is getting more portable and needs a touch interface that can work well on smaller screens and Win 10 is a huge step backwards compared to Win 8.1
    03-23-2015 01:37 PM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    If we can't have a civil discussion without name calling or "trolling" references this thread goes kaput.

    http://forums.mobilenations.com/rule...uidelines.html


    Sent from my Slime Green Lumia 1520
    Jas00555 likes this.
    03-23-2015 02:18 PM
  9. kwill's Avatar
    For me they are one of my favourite things. Ok so Windows 10 might be even more streamlined (but surely you need 3 steps? How do you select between multiple devices? I haven't used the TP on a tablet) but the Charms in Windows 8 simplified and unified the same tasks over Windows 7. I definitely wouldn't call them cumbersome and annoying. How did you project to your Xbox from each different application in Windows 7?

    Printing? Ctrl-P works as it always has and otherwise Swipe -> Devices -> Print isn't that much harder than trying to hit File -> Print with your finger in a desktop app.

    The Share Charm is also one of my favourites, it's so easy to send stuff to other people or other apps (like Reading List, OneNote, Xbox Music, Facebook and many others).

    The Charms may require an extra step or two for some tasks, over a desktop app, but they are consistent, they work very easily with touch or mouse, they have keyboard shortcuts for desktop users, and they offer a range of functionality across all apps.
    I'm with you on this also. The charms bar is awesome! There's never been a better way to share to EVERYTHING and with EVERYONE, project your screen, print and get to settings. There's more power in those five icons than I could've ever imagined.
    Last edited by kwill; 03-23-2015 at 11:33 PM.
    jhoff80 likes this.
    03-23-2015 11:03 PM
  10. jhoff80's Avatar
    I just can't believe there still isn't even a tablet file picker yet.

    ​As for people saying the release of Windows 10 is still 6 months out... no. The OS will RTM a month or two before that, so that OEMs have time to get the drivers and hardware sorted out. And it'll go into feature freeze a few months before that. Being absolutely as generous as you can claiming that the summer lasts until September 21, that means that there's really only another month or two left for design changes (likely, less), and after that it's only bug fixes. What we have now is pretty much what we're going to get.
    03-23-2015 11:21 PM
  11. Jas00555's Avatar
    I just can't believe there still isn't even a tablet file picker yet.

    ​As for people saying the release of Windows 10 is still 6 months out... no. The OS will RTM a month or two before that, so that OEMs have time to get the drivers and hardware sorted out. And it'll go into feature freeze a few months before that. Being absolutely as generous as you can claiming that the summer lasts until September 21, that means that there's really only another month or two left for design changes (likely, less), and after that it's only bug fixes. What we have now is pretty much what we're going to get.
    Except that what you're saying completely contradicts what Microsoft has explicitly said. At the January 21st announcement, they specifically said that they were adding new features in the next "4 to 5 months" which means that they plan on adding features all the way into potentially June.
    03-24-2015 12:21 AM
  12. hotphil's Avatar
    And with the new ability to update the entire OS via Windows Update, there's not really any guarantee that what goes to RTM will be what the user gets after their first (probably during initial setup) Windows Update.
    ​You might argue that gold and RTM builds are about to become a thing of the past.
    a5cent likes this.
    03-24-2015 12:27 AM
  13. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    Except that what you're saying completely contradicts what Microsoft has explicitly said. At the January 21st announcement, they specifically said that they were adding new features in the next "4 to 5 months" which means that they plan on adding features all the way into potentially June.
    Yes, adding new features, fine. Altering the core operation of the OS, not so much. We are not talking about features here. We are talking about implemented design choices which are not reversible without a major rewrite of a lot of the core parts of the OS. The fact that in the latest build the registry hack to get the start screen back has been removed is enough evidence to conclude MSFT has now officially scrapped what was WIN8.x and decided to go with WIN7 with some tweaks and tacked on functions (read tablet mode) to make it appear they are still considering touch as important.

    They have virtually given up on it. Tablet mode is nothing more than a switch which opens any app and the start menu in full screen. Give it a fancy name and some may fall for the trick.,
    03-24-2015 04:41 AM
  14. swanlee's Avatar
    Yes, adding new features, fine. Altering the core operation of the OS, not so much. We are not talking about features here. We are talking about implemented design choices which are not reversible without a major rewrite of a lot of the core parts of the OS. The fact that in the latest build the registry hack to get the start screen back has been removed is enough evidence to conclude MSFT has now officially scrapped what was WIN8.x and decided to go with WIN7 with some tweaks and tacked on functions (read tablet mode) to make it appear they are still considering touch as important.

    They have virtually given up on it. Tablet mode is nothing more than a switch which opens any app and the start menu in full screen. Give it a fancy name and some may fall for the trick.,
    Yea it is silly to have to GUI modes that are hardly any different than one another. It just boggles my mind they did this and it is such a huge disappointment. You would expect them to build on the Tablet GUI in Win 8 and improve it instead of throwing it all out the window.

    With two modes you could really tweak things to be as efficient as possible for the type of PC input you are using. MS really messed up here.
    03-24-2015 06:58 AM
  15. jhoff80's Avatar
    Except that what you're saying completely contradicts what Microsoft has explicitly said. At the January 21st announcement, they specifically said that they were adding new features in the next "4 to 5 months" which means that they plan on adding features all the way into potentially June.
    Yeah, but they also explicitly said they'd be improving Windows based on feedback too, and that certainly hasn't been happening yet.

    Not just with regard to tablet mode, but you can look at the feedback with the most "Me Toos" and count on one hand how many of them have been implemented... which is weird considering most of that feedback has been around since 9879. And with tablet mode, well it'd be hard for anyone who cared at Microsoft to look at the "Desktop>Continuum" category and think that users think they're doing the right thing.

    To be honest, this whole Preview program is starting to have the feel of a massive PR campaign to claim that things have changed since Windows 8, and that they're listening now. Meanwhile, we've seen about as much response and improvement from Microsoft as we did in the Windows 8 previews.
    AndyCalling likes this.
    03-24-2015 08:58 AM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    To be honest, this whole Preview program is starting to have the feel of a massive PR campaign to claim that things have changed since Windows 8, and that they're listening now. Meanwhile, we've seen about as much response and improvement from Microsoft as we did in the Windows 8 previews.
    The squeaky wheel always gets the grease. We don't know who Microsoft is really listening to.
    03-24-2015 01:47 PM
  17. swanlee's Avatar
    The squeaky wheel always gets the grease. We don't know who Microsoft is really listening to.

    At this point I just hope a 3rd party like stardock make a Tablet GUI app that aims to replicate the Win 8 experience on win 10 cause I do not have any trust that MS will do it given how Win 10 is turning out.
    03-24-2015 02:07 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    At this point I just hope a 3rd party like stardock make a Tablet GUI app that aims to replicate the Win 8 experience on win 10 cause I do not have any trust that MS will do it given how Win 10 is turning out.
    That's a fair statement. Just be glad there might be customization options available, right now the Metro (Modern) UI is pretty barren as far as customizing options are concerned.
    03-24-2015 02:31 PM
  19. theefman's Avatar
    At this point I just hope a 3rd party like stardock make a Tablet GUI app that aims to replicate the Win 8 experience on win 10 cause I do not have any trust that MS will do it given how Win 10 is turning out.
    That'll be ironic, this was the software Windows 8 haters turned to for escape from the touch-first design, now Windows 8 tablet users hope the same company comes to their rescue and restores the touch-first environment in W10... I see the point though, and I was actually thinking along the same lines, its probably the only thing that can make Windows 10 halfway decent for tablet users.

    Would be interesting to see the respective adoption numbers for both sides....
    03-24-2015 02:53 PM
  20. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Cue the singing nuns: "You can't always get what you want".
    03-24-2015 03:06 PM
  21. wpfan86's Avatar
    what needs to be done is completely nuke all the tablet crap and make it a full desktop os something ppl will love nothin a tablet os thats gona be a thing of the past cuz no 1 buys tablets anymore
    Meanwhile in 1999: "What needs to be done is completely nuke all the 'digital photography' crap and just make a really good film camera. No 1 buys digital cameras anyway."
    Sincerely,
    CEO of Kodak

    Some people are so stubborn and terrified of change it's frightening. It's adapt or go under.
    03-24-2015 03:12 PM
  22. jhoff80's Avatar
    its probably the only thing that can make Windows 10 halfway decent for tablet users.
    Other than if Microsoft put some effort into it. ;)

    There's already a tablet mode switch. It'd just be nice if that switch actually enabled something that worked well on tablets instead of just making apps run mostly fullscreen (but not completely fullscreen, as there's a separate fullscreen toggle for that) and drag to close. When there's a switch between two modes already, it actually is possible to appease both the desktop users and the tablet users.

    Still though, maybe you're right that a third-party is necessary. It's pretty clear that the people working on Windows 10's tablet mode now don't actually understand what made Windows 8 work well on a tablet. Simplifying that down to 'everything fullscreen' and drag to close is completely missing the point.
    03-24-2015 03:19 PM
  23. Paolo Cardelli's Avatar
    SUGGESTIONS to further improve Windows 10 "Tablet Mode" starting from build 10041:


    Boot to "Full-Screen Start Menu" by default when Tablet Mode is permanently activated in Settings;
    Hide Taskbar by Default while in Tablet Mode, everywhere. Make it visible only by swiping from the bottom edge of the screen, like a the current menu list charms in modern apps;
    Make an "Immersive" version of Project Spartan like the current IE11 Metro while in Tablet Mode;
    Bring back the 8.1 Apps-Snapping style while in Tablet Mode;
    Hide any "old-Desktop" Windows behind the "Full-Screen Start Menu" background/transparency while in Tablet Mode;
    Make a modern full-screen "Windows Explorer" instead of opening "old-Desktop" Explorer while in Tablet Mode (this is the BIGGEST limit of 8.1 right now, maybe the only real one);
    Bring back the new announced precision touchpad gestures even on Touch Screens (Always, not only while in Tablet Mode);
    Keep the "Swipe down from upper charm" to close apps while in Tablet Mode;
    Hide the "minimize Start Menu" icon (on top right corner) when Tablet Mode is permanently activated in Settings;
    Enable Cortana searches directly on the "Full-Screen Start Menu" (on top right corner, with 8.1 Search button) when in Tablet Mode;
    Insert "Share" and "Play To" contextual buttons on Action Center (Always, not only on Tablet Mode);
    Make Action Center Full-Screen by height "Charm Bar style" when activated in Tablet Mode;
    Insert clock time and date, Always visible in bottom right corner on top of "Full-Screen Start Menu" while in Tablet Mode (Xbox One style);
    Just literally kill "old-Desktop" while in Tablet Mode...


    Discussion continues on official MS Forums -> Windows 10 "Tablet Mode" Experience is much WORSE than Windows - Microsoft Community
    03-25-2015 05:20 AM
  24. swanlee's Avatar
    I've posted something in the StarDock forums to see if they could make a Application to fix Tablet mode in Win 10. Wonder how accepting they will be towards it if at all.


    http://forums.stardock.com/462721/page/1/
    Last edited by swanlee; 03-25-2015 at 07:50 AM.
    03-25-2015 07:09 AM
  25. Goosinurwife's Avatar
    Meanwhile in 1999: "What needs to be done is completely nuke all the 'digital photography' crap and just make a really good film camera. No 1 buys digital cameras anyway."
    Sincerely,
    CEO of Kodak

    Some people are so stubborn and terrified of change it's frightening. It's adapt or go under.
    to adapt u have to distroy all tablets those things are a thing of the past ment to be forgotten just like vhs and betamax and the laserdisc
    03-25-2015 10:12 AM
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