Another release, another bad experience on tablets

[fatclue_98]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that this was Technical PREVIEW. Did anybody read the advisory on Microsoft's website?






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[swanlee]

Yes it is a technical preview but as stated a million times this is how MS intends Win 10 to function on tablets, Permanent taskbar, charm bars removed, reduction in swipe functions compared to Win 8, removal of the Start screen and replaced by a desktop centric start menu. This is what they have talked about and presented in every demonstration of Win 10 and this is what the Devs have said it will work like when released.

This is how it is going to work once it goes into RTM in just a few months and it would be silly to just sit idly bye when it is more than obvious that the Win 10 experience is going to be much worse than Win 8 on tablets. Now is the time to speak up about these issues while they still might have a little bit of time to fix them.

Waiting till release to judge the Tablet functions will be to late for any fix.

 

[fatclue_98]

They had to start somewhere. If enough people complain, they might adjust some things which is why they warn about multiple UI changes. Did you make a 8.1 ISO on a thumb drive before installing 10? Shame on you if you didn't, it was also listed as a to-do before installing since there's no going back.
Sent from my Slime Green Lumia 1520

 

[anon(5335899)]

No, I seriously don't get what the complaining is about.

• No fast app switching by swiping in from left
• Charms bar gone
• Status bas visible at all time, not even possible to auto-hide in tablet mode
• App list constantly visible in start menu
• Vertical scrolling looks awful in landscape orientation
• Does not default back to start menu when you close last app (you get a blocked out desktop
• Leaves the active app visible in background when you open start menu (makes for very messy and sometimes unreadable screen)
• Re positioning of tiles is clunky at best
• No more moving of tile groups in one go
• No more pinch to see all tiles
• App list is limited in current implementation, no index

And there's more. Basically, how tablet mode works is they open a new desktop for each app and run everything full screen. That is it.

We went back from a great new way of thinking and potentially great and useful touch UI/UX to a tacked on extension of the start menu. I'll admit that for some WIN8 may have been too big a step forward in one go but we're now back to worse than WIN7 IMO.

 

[alexander0311]

imo i think w10 should have as default start menu for desktops and 2in1. and with that tablet mode you get the best of w10 on a 2in1(aka full start screen and maximized aplications only when needed or when you manually make them). BUT ALSO an option for start screen, just to be there for users who want it. more options, more customizations, thats the key ms is not seeing.

on the other hand, on tablet things should be vice-versa. start screen (and tablet mode switched on) as default, start menu as an option.

moreover, they could edit startscreen to vertical scrolling, just to satisfy their need of having an unified experience, since w10 dumps horizontal scrolling.

edit: about task bar, why dont they improve its auto-hide option and make it more viable? then they can add that autohide option dafault on on tablets and on tablet mode, and default off on desktop mode. plus, taskbar activation on tablet mode could be just as navigation bar on phones(swipe up), and on desktop mode(if taskbar auto-hide manually activated) you could bring it up they way we brought up charms bar on w8/8.1.

thats how things should work in my opinion. its very simple.

 

[Jas00555]

• No fast app switching by swiping in from left

• 
  
  We must be using a different Technical Preview then, because when I swipe from the left, I get a list of my open apps that allow me to switch just as easily as I did before.
  

  [*]Charms bar gone

  
  Thankfully! The Charms were the most cumbersome and annoying thing about Windows 8. I mean seriously, why should I have to swipe from the right, hit devices, play, then select my Xbox to get something to play on my TV? With Windows 10 build 10041, all I have to do is swipe from the right, hit media connect, and there, I've just skipped two steps. Don't even get me started on how annoying it was to print.
  

  [*]Status bas visible at all time, not even possible to auto-hide in tablet mode

  I suppose someone might find this annoying, but the ability to easily start typing in Cortana or easily getting back to the start screen makes the taskbar not a big deal for me.
  

  [*]App list constantly visible in start menu

  And that's a bad thing? Why should there be two different screens when they could easily be combined into one? I don't understand how this is a bad thing at all.
  

  [*]Vertical scrolling looks awful in landscape orientation

  That's your personal preference, and I disagree, so we'll have to leave it at that.
  

  [*]Does not default back to start menu when you close last app (you get a blocked out desktop

  I've noticed that too and it's obviously a bug, not the way things will be (that is, if we're talking about the same thing)
  

  [*]Re positioning of tiles is clunky at best

  and it's also a technical preview, so that will obviously work better in RTM.
  

  [*]No more moving of tile groups in one go

  Again, technical preview
  
  Actually...
  

  [*]No more pinch to see all tiles
  [*]App list is limited in current implementation, no index

  Both of these can also be attributed to the technical preview, and they'll surely fix these in the 6 months they've given themselves.

 

[anon(5335899)]

Really, the "It's a TP" argument is no longer valid, the choices made are definite by now and there's no way back for this release.

I much preferred the quick flick with my thumb to swipe through the open apps. I could also easily select any open app without having to release the tablet with my left hand. Closing apps which are suspended when not in the front is pointless really.

The 'fix' Microsoft thought up for a potential multitasking issue was to basically sell the idea of having multiple desktops as being cool and then just design 'tablet mode' around it which basically means that an app opens on a separate desktop in full screen by default. It's the easy way out really.

The main excuse for the task bar we were given is it provides easy access to the start menu/button on devices with no physical button. This is a big bag of BS as this is _exactly_ what the charms bar did, it also provided a unified and standard way of accessing the relevant settings/preferences for what you are doing at the time.

Moving tile groups and pinch zoom out to see all tiles will not come back as we do no longer have a start screen. The Start Menu doe snot have that functionality and won't. It has nothing to do with being a TP, it was YA design choice which greatly reduces the touch UX.

WIN8.x has a clean, clear and great touch experience, WIN10 has none of that, it has a setting which forces all desktop action to full screen, nothing more nothing less. From the moment I saw the 'mouse/keyboard improvements' in WIN8.1 I knew MSFT was going to f*ck it up and they have. There's simply no time for MSFT to fix this even if they want to so why bother. At best we will get back what was lost now in the next version of windows in 2 years or so.

I was planning to get a next gen Surface end of the year to replace my desktop but really do not see the point now. I think the touch/tablet experience on <8inch tablets and phones will be fine, on the larger screens it's going to be a big let down so why invest in that.

And we are 3-6 months away from _release_ which means at best we'll see one more TP before going RC and RTM

 

[anon(5335899)]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that this was Technical PREVIEW. Did anybody read the advisory on Microsoft's website?

• Want to try out software that?s still in development and like sharing your opinion about it.
  
• Don?t mind lots of updates or a UI design that might change significantly over time.

Yes, anyone who actually understand anything about a development cycle like this understands that 6 months before release there will not be room for any major changes. What we have now is pretty much what we will get in the release with at best some cosmetic changes. But the core stuff is done and locked.

The quote you are using here was likely written many months ago when the TP idea was set up and prepared and most of this stuff was still fluid. This does no longer apply now as the key choices were made well before we got January TP and all it does now is allow MSFT to fix the top layer.

The point made in this thread about the removal of key touch UI/UX components is a done deal and there is no way these could be brought back in even if MSFT were to come to heir senses and see this is going nowhere fast.

 

[astondg]

Thankfully! The Charms were the most cumbersome and annoying thing about Windows 8. I mean seriously, why should I have to swipe from the right, hit devices, play, then select my Xbox to get something to play on my TV? With Windows 10 build 10041, all I have to do is swipe from the right, hit media connect, and there, I've just skipped two steps. Don't even get me started on how annoying it was to print.

For me they are one of my favourite things. Ok so Windows 10 might be even more streamlined (but surely you need 3 steps? How do you select between multiple devices? I haven't used the TP on a tablet) but the Charms in Windows 8 simplified and unified the same tasks over Windows 7. I definitely wouldn't call them cumbersome and annoying. How did you project to your Xbox from each different application in Windows 7?

Printing? Ctrl-P works as it always has and otherwise Swipe -> Devices -> Print isn't that much harder than trying to hit File -> Print with your finger in a desktop app.

The Share Charm is also one of my favourites, it's so easy to send stuff to other people or other apps (like Reading List, OneNote, Xbox Music, Facebook and many others).

The Charms may require an extra step or two for some tasks, over a desktop app, but they are consistent, they work very easily with touch or mouse, they have keyboard shortcuts for desktop users, and they offer a range of functionality across all apps.

I'm not saying Windows 10 is wrong here, I haven't used it on a tablet, but I'm saying that 'The Charms were the most cumbersome and annoying thing about Windows 8' is not a universally accepted statement.

 

[ahumeniy]

I see a mixed message here. Microsoft said when they presented Windows 10 they will bring a tailored experience for each device and they won't do as Windows 8 when they forced a touch UI on desktop users, but all I've seen so far in Windows 10 is the opposide, a desktop UI forced on touch users. I really hope they have the touch-focused tailored experience hidden somewhere, on internal testing or something like that.

 

[swanlee]

They had to start somewhere. If enough people complain, they might adjust some things which is why they warn about multiple UI changes. Did you make a 8.1 ISO on a thumb drive before installing 10? Shame on you if you didn't, it was also listed as a to-do before installing since there's no going back.
Sent from my Slime Green Lumia 1520

They could have started with Win 8's GUI and gone from there. It's not like they didn't have a Tablet oriented GUI interface that they have worked on for the last few years.

Tablet mode = Win 8.1 with tweaks
Desktop mode = Win 10

Done

 

[swanlee]

I see a mixed message here. Microsoft said when they presented Windows 10 they will bring a tailored experience for each device and they won't do as Windows 8 when they forced a touch UI on desktop users, but all I've seen so far in Windows 10 is the opposide, a desktop UI forced on touch users. I really hope they have the touch-focused tailored experience hidden somewhere, on internal testing or something like that.

The problem is EVERY presentation of Win 10 has been pretty much what we've seen now. Even when they say they are showing of recent build that won;t make it to the public it is still the same Desktop like Gui shoved onto a tablet. Joe B even demoed and 8 inch tablet with the dang taskbar at the bottom and acted like it was amazing.

Their is every indication that Win 10 is actually what they INTEND for tablets and it probably won't get sorted out till enough people complain about it.

 

[fatclue_98]

They could have started with Win 8's GUI and gone from there. It's not like they didn't have a Tablet oriented GUI interface that they have worked on for the last few years.

Tablet mode = Win 8.1 with tweaks
Desktop mode = Win 10

Done

True, but there's the desktop crowd who was quite vocal about the switch to a touch-favorable UI when W8 was released. Many businesses, which are the core cash cows for MS, were still using XP until support was eliminated. This group cannot be forsaken just to satisfy the general consumer. Windows 10 is going to be a unified experience for all and compromises will have to be made. Feedback isn't going to come just from us, I'm sure the enterprise crowd has a bigger piece of Microsoft's ear.

We can discuss this till the cows come home but the most important thing to note is that Windows cannot be seen as fragmented if this one-size-fits-all experiment is to succeed. Personally, I'm not a fan of the new UI. It looks too much like iOS with different locations all over the screen for the same function. I could use WP7 blindfolded because everything was always in the same place and no thumb hunting was needed. I always knew the 3 dots were in the lower right corner, regardless of app.

 

[swanlee]

It's silly their are TWO modes in Win 10 Desktop and Tablet, both user types should be able to get what they want out of each mode but instead it seems they are screwing things up for both types of users.

Tablet users are getting the real screw job since a touch interface and a smaller screen are difficult to work around the present issues with Win 10 in tablet mode.

They simply did not need to mess with the Tablet Gui interface with Win 10 in Tablet mode. Desktop mode could very easily be just what Win 10 looks like now VS tablet mode looking like Win 8.1.

Regardless of all the complaining desktop users they did not have to crap things up for Tablet users.

you don;t have to **** up the Tablet GUi to please Desktop users unless you are just being spiteful.

 

[anon(5335899)]

The argument that this disaster waiting to happen is for the sake of business is simply nonsense. The desktop in WIN8.1 is much more solid and smooth than the WIN7 one with a much improved scheduling and other core functions under the hood. Performance in a virtual environment is also _much_ better on WIN8.1. This experience is mostly the same on WIN10, desktop use is just fine and I have no issue with that at all. Enterprise really could not care less as long as they can run Office. Being in the business I am in I know that as far as server OS goes 2012 R2 is currently the big player with 2008 some way behind.

That MSFT made mistakes (huge ones) in introducing the touch UI/UX in WIN8 is obvious, it was not due to the interface being bad though (with some exceptions) but more that MSFT seems unable to sell anything they dream up, stuff which is often way ahead of its time and has a very high innovation factor.

Ever since the first update and even more in WIN8.1 the back peddling has started and now we are basically back where we were with WIN7. The compromises made simply boil down to a botched attempt to keep the live tiles in and not alienating the store apps completely.

The thing is that we know that at release devices with a screen <8inch will all have the 'mobile' UI while everything else will be what we see now.

Your remark about the 3 dots in WP7 basically makes the point a lot of us here are making, in WIN8.1 all the important stuff (preferences/share/play to/start) were _always_ in the same place and available with the same single thumb swipe.

In WIN8 the startscreen was the core of the OS, everything came back and was nicely integrated there including desktop. Now we're back at a desktop centred OS with the touch 'experience' tagged on for good measure.

 

[Goosinurwife]

Why get off the fast ring just so I can be stuck with crappy desktop features longer? If anything I want to get on the daily release ring so Tablet fixes can get to me quicker.

Win 10 launches in July and their has been every indication from the devs and Joe B that this is the intended way Win 10 will work on tablets.

Mandatory taskbar even in tablet mode, charm bars gone, no swipe ahead to scroll through apps, no Metro IE, no full screen Start like Win 8 etc.

What makes Win 10 bad on Tablets is not anything glitchy or bugs it is the actual intended design of Win 10 on tablets that is a huge step back from Win 8.

The Win 8 GUI got out of the way on tablets and that is the way it should be, Win 10 on tablets shoves gui elements in your face you don;t need whihc takes up screen space and swipes are not nearly as natural as Win 8

what needs to be done is completely nuke all the tablet crap and make it a full desktop os something ppl will love nothin a tablet os thats gona be a thing of the past cuz no 1 buys tablets anymore

 

[swanlee]

Are you on crack? Win 8.1 tablets are really great and much more functional than IPads or Android Tablets and the Surface line is selling really well. Having a full real OS is a good thing even having a desktop on a tablet makes it much more versatile. However their is no reason that the Tablet GUI has to be nuked just because desktop users whined like little babies about their start menu.

It's more than obvious your trolling cause computing is getting more portable and needs a touch interface that can work well on smaller screens and Win 10 is a huge step backwards compared to Win 8.1

 

[fatclue_98]

If we can't have a civil discussion without name calling or "trolling" references this thread goes kaput.

http://forums.mobilenations.com/rules-policies/500-community-rules-guidelines.html


Sent from my Slime Green Lumia 1520

 

[kwill]

For me they are one of my favourite things. Ok so Windows 10 might be even more streamlined (but surely you need 3 steps? How do you select between multiple devices? I haven't used the TP on a tablet) but the Charms in Windows 8 simplified and unified the same tasks over Windows 7. I definitely wouldn't call them cumbersome and annoying. How did you project to your Xbox from each different application in Windows 7?

Printing? Ctrl-P works as it always has and otherwise Swipe -> Devices -> Print isn't that much harder than trying to hit File -> Print with your finger in a desktop app.

The Share Charm is also one of my favourites, it's so easy to send stuff to other people or other apps (like Reading List, OneNote, Xbox Music, Facebook and many others).

The Charms may require an extra step or two for some tasks, over a desktop app, but they are consistent, they work very easily with touch or mouse, they have keyboard shortcuts for desktop users, and they offer a range of functionality across all apps.

I'm with you on this also. The charms bar is awesome! There's never been a better way to share to EVERYTHING and with EVERYONE, project your screen, print and get to settings. There's more power in those five icons than I could've ever imagined.

 

[jhoff80]

I just can't believe there still isn't even a tablet file picker yet.

​As for people saying the release of Windows 10 is still 6 months out... no. The OS will RTM a month or two before that, so that OEMs have time to get the drivers and hardware sorted out. And it'll go into feature freeze a few months before that. Being absolutely as generous as you can claiming that the summer lasts until September 21, that means that there's really only another month or two left for design changes (likely, less), and after that it's only bug fixes. What we have now is pretty much what we're going to get.