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  1. CJ Thunder's Avatar
    Will MS finally be and to make carriers stay out of the way(since its going to basically the largest os a long after launch)?
    Will we get lots more software updates but no hardware?
    Think we'll get more hardware updates but no radio updates?

    I know no one "knows", but what have you heard?
    11-08-2014 03:32 PM
  2. Visa Declined's Avatar
    Will MS finally be and to make carriers stay out of the way(since its going to basically the largest os a long after launch)?
    No
    a5cent and N_LaRUE like this.
    11-08-2014 05:10 PM
  3. ShinraCorp's Avatar
    Getting the Windows 10 update must be approved by the carriers sadly enough. Microsoft doesn't have an iTunes alternative to download the updates. So yeah it sucks but that's how it goes, just hope that it's on their priority list.
    11-08-2014 05:36 PM
  4. CJ Thunder's Avatar
    I think you're being pessimistic, even though I'm being optimistic. The W10 preview has two speeds of update delivery.
    Comparing that to WP, the faster of the two could be dp, while the regular is just Windows update...
    If no RADIO firmware is changed, I see no reason why ms just doesn't do it... Like now with dp, but for everyone and most everything.
    11-08-2014 06:17 PM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    You're falsely assuming W10 for desktop/laptop/convertibles will be the same OS as W10 for mobile. That is incorrect. It's more accurate to think of it as one being a small subset of the other.

    Anyway, Visa Declined is right. Until customers start breaking down carrier's doors to get a WP device, and switching carriers by the millions to get the WP device they want, nothing will change. Even then things might not change, as most carriers have sworn to never again sign the types of agreements they signed with Apple.

    The update situation has absolutely nothing to do with MS lacking an iTunes equivalent. It's not even a technical problem. It's entirely about the legal agreements between OEMs and carriers, and the fact that carrier's want to retain control over every product connected to their networks. They once agreed to cede that control to Apple. As long as they have the slightest choice in the matter, carrier's won't do that again.
    11-08-2014 06:48 PM
  6. ShinraCorp's Avatar
    You're falsely assuming W10 for desktop/laptop/convertibles will be the same OS as W10 for mobile. That is incorrect. It's more accurate to think of it as one being a small subset of the other.

    Anyway, Visa Declined is right. Until customers start breaking down carrier's doors to get a WP device, and switching carriers by the millions to get the WP device they want, nothing will change. Even then things might not change, as most carriers have sworn to never again sign the types of agreements they signed with Apple.

    The update situation has absolutely nothing to do with MS lacking an iTunes equivalent. It's not even a technical problem. It's entirely about the legal agreements between OEMs and carriers, and the fact that carrier's want to retain control over every product connected to their networks. They once agreed to cede that control to Apple. As long as they have the slightest choice in the matter, carrier's won't do that again.
    The reason why Apple can get away with updating their devices without the carriers is because they have influence, no one else does, it's pretty much suicide if they don't carry any Apple products in the store. I say they don't have an alternative to iTunes since that's what iOS owners use to update the latest version, yeah sure they can do it directly on their device now (after iOS 4 I believe?) but back then it's connect iOS device to PC/MAC, open iTunes, download iOS update BAM DONE no need to wait weeks or months for an update.

    As for the Windows 10 isn't the same thing, well I understand why you think it wouldn't. It is. If you checked out some libraries available in the Tech Preview of Windows 10, you will find phone related codes like a dialer and a ringer, why would these be inside what is supposedly a desktop only OS? I don't have the link right now and I've read this weeks ago so it'll take some time before I find the source again.

    Microsoft separated Windows 10 in different categories like Windows 10 for the IoT, Windows 10 for Mobile, Windows 10 for Automobile, Windows 10 for desktop/laptop/tablet but it's still fundamentally the same OS. Just because the GUI is different doesn't make it a different OS. That's like saying Ubuntu server version and Ubuntu desktop version isn't the same since one has a GUI while the other is a command line interface...
    11-08-2014 07:41 PM
  7. Asskickulater's Avatar
    The reason why Apple can get away with updating their devices without the carriers is because they have influence, no one else does, it's pretty much suicide if they don't carry any Apple products in the store. I say they don't have an alternative to iTunes since that's what iOS owners use to update the latest version, yeah sure they can do it directly on their device now (after iOS 4 I believe?) but back then it's connect iOS device to PC/MAC, open iTunes, download iOS update BAM DONE no need to wait weeks or months for an update.

    As for the Windows 10 isn't the same thing, well I understand why you think it wouldn't. It is. If you checked out some libraries available in the Tech Preview of Windows 10, you will find phone related codes like a dialer and a ringer, why would these be inside what is supposedly a desktop only OS? I don't have the link right now and I've read this weeks ago so it'll take some time before I find the source again.

    Microsoft separated Windows 10 in different categories like Windows 10 for the IoT, Windows 10 for Mobile, Windows 10 for Automobile, Windows 10 for desktop/laptop/tablet but it's still fundamentally the same OS. Just because the GUI is different doesn't make it a different OS. That's like saying Ubuntu server version and Ubuntu desktop version isn't the same since one has a GUI while the other is a command line interface...
    no no, your confusing this!

    Not everything will be on the same OS, as far as I know, there are two major versions of windows 10, the x86 version, which will run on desktops, laptops, and hybrids, then there will be the ARM Windows 10, which will run on phones and tablets.

    It's fundementally impossible for the exact same OS from an x86 chipset to run on ARM, might be possible with emulation, but that's not really a feasible method.

    What the whole windows 10 merge is referring more to, is the shared API's, the ability to code an app for one device and essentially be making one for all of Microsofts devices at the same time, its the unified UI as well, and the sharing of similar features among all the devices!

    Windows 10 isn't litterally the same OS on all devices, its the similar experience on all devices.
    satrus08 likes this.
    11-08-2014 10:22 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    The reason why Apple can get away with updating their devices without the carriers is because they have influence, no one else does, it's pretty much suicide if they don't carry any Apple products in the store. I say they don't have an alternative to iTunes since that's what iOS owners use to update the latest version, yeah sure they can do it directly on their device now (after iOS 4 I believe?) but back then it's connect iOS device to PC/MAC, open iTunes, download iOS update BAM DONE no need to wait weeks or months for an update.
    I'm a software engineer and I work for a European carrier. I know. I've been explaining this for a few years now, since before it was widely understood on the web. I get what you were trying to say now. I don't think invoking iTunes is the best way to explain WP's update distribution situation. I think it's misleading as it suggests we're dealing with a technical/software problem. However, I'm also sure there is more than just one valid opinion about which explanations work best.

    As for the Windows 10 isn't the same thing, well I understand why you think it wouldn't. It is. If you checked out some libraries available in the Tech Preview of Windows 10, you will find phone related codes like a dialer and a ringer, why would these be inside what is supposedly a desktop only OS? I don't have the link right now and I've read this weeks ago so it'll take some time before I find the source again.

    Microsoft separated Windows 10 in different categories like Windows 10 for the IoT, Windows 10 for Mobile, Windows 10 for Automobile, Windows 10 for desktop/laptop/tablet but it's still fundamentally the same OS. Just because the GUI is different doesn't make it a different OS. That's like saying Ubuntu server version and Ubuntu desktop version isn't the same since one has a GUI while the other is a command line interface...
    Lets just agree to disagree then. I'll grant you that it's not a cut and dry issue however, because we lack a universally accepted definition for what being "the same" means.

    As previously stated, W10 mobile is a fully contained subset of W10. That's why finding phone specific APIs in the W10 TP is to be expected. That's just not even close to a good justification for calling them "the same". OS/2 replicated the entire API surface of Win16, so they too had the same APIs, but nobody would have agreed that OS/2 and Windows were the same OS. I'm not claiming that to be a perfect analogy for this situation. It's only intended to make it clear that supporting the same APIs isn't enough. That's the point. If you still disagree, then just consider the Win32 API. That's a huge collection of features and functionality which W10 supports, but W10 mobile will not. If we were to draw two circles representing the API surface supported by both OSes, it would look something like this:

    circles.png
    That those circles are not even close to fully overlapping should be a very clear hint that these two OSes are not one and the same.

    In my opinion, calling two OSes "the same" absolutely requires that both run the same software! That includes the millions of software packages that most associate with the name "Windows", which W10 mobile won't run! There are quite a few other things W10 mobile won't do, which I've mentioned elsewhere, but this is the only thing MS has so far publicly confirmed. The casual tech media continually suggesting these are one and the same OS leads to a lot of confusion. That is evidenced by many of the questions on this forum (how well will my W10 phone run desktop software? will W10 run on computers with 512 MB? etc etc etc). I think that makes it clear that there is value in being more accurate and technically truthful. That is why I'm not willing to ignore the differences, adopt the majority opinion, or chime in with some of the tech press (who for the most part are just parroting MS' marketing materials).
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-09-2014 at 05:17 PM. Reason: spelling
    11-09-2014 04:02 PM
  9. realwarder's Avatar
    Getting the Windows 10 update must be approved by the carriers sadly enough. Microsoft doesn't have an iTunes alternative to download the updates. So yeah it sucks but that's how it goes, just hope that it's on their priority list.
    Having or not having iTunes is nothing to do with Microsoft's ability to update Windows Phones. Any WP8+ phone can technically be updated by Microsoft as all updates are pushed through Windows Update. This is how they push the Developer Previews out... the carriers do not provide those system updates.

    Each carrier version of Windows is customized though - whether it's the boot logo showing AT&T, or the radio baseband firmware doing odd channel bonding, or background processes that monitor signal strength and location and push that data to the carrier to help improve network quality. Those changes may require the carrier's involvement and certainly approval, and that is what takes time and is why release updates are pushed out at carrier speed. Remember - the carrier is the front line to the customer and they are partly protecting themselves from the backlash of a broken update. Even Apple has been getting into trouble recently putting updates out without sufficient testing that break customer phones - think about who answers the calls from those customers and who would rather not be...

    Personally I prefer more of the Apple fast track release model even if it sometimes causes problems, but then the Developer Preview pretty much gives us that for those of us who want to be trying the latest, and are willing to risk having issues because of that.

    The other side of the issue of course is the number of variants of Windows Phones from Microsoft and other manufacturers... think how many Lumia models are there even compared to Apple. Takes a lot less testing when you only have 4 phones to validate, so is much easier and quicker to get releases to market.
    11-10-2014 09:05 AM
  10. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    Microsoft is close to being able to start pulling control back into their court. With Windows 10 and Universal Apps/Common Shared Code + Microsoft Stores Growing Coast to Coast ( Both in US and Canada ), they can now start to chip away at the control of a company like Verizon.

    I think you will start to see the Terms on Exclusive deals fall to 3 Months. As Microsoft could soon start to load their stores up on Unlocked Phones.

    In the Past they were never able to load a Best Buy on Unlocked as most stores like that have deals in place with the Major Carriers. Which is why you can start a new account with AT&T or Sprint at a Box Store.

    This is not something that will happen, but could happen, which now gives Microsoft something to bargain with as Apple always sells Locked and Unlocked phones and the Carriers must accept.

    I'm in the section of the Market this would affect most. I have a Monthly plan on a SIM, not on a phone. I buy my phones outright. Thus no one can tell me it's to early to upgrade.
    So if Wind does not have the phone I want, I just go where ever and get it.

    No big Carrier wants "You" the person to have that control. It kills their business model of monthly payments on a service and phone.

    So should Microsoft ever pull something like that, it would not kill a Big Carrier, but it would impact on a business model that could start costly Law Suits that would swing in Microsoft's favor anyway as Apple has already set this as acceptable.
    11-10-2014 02:19 PM
  11. ShinraCorp's Avatar
    I'm a software engineer and I work for a European carrier. I know. I've been explaining this for a few years now, since before it was widely understood on the web. I get what you were trying to say now. I don't think invoking iTunes is the best way to explain WP's update distribution situation. I think it's misleading as it suggests we're dealing with a technical/software problem. However, I'm also sure there is more than just one valid opinion about which explanations work best.



    Lets just agree to disagree then. I'll grant you that it's not a cut and dry issue however, because we lack a universally accepted definition for what being "the same" means.

    As previously stated, W10 mobile is a fully contained subset of W10. That's why finding phone specific APIs in the W10 TP is to be expected. That's just not even close to a good justification for calling them "the same". OS/2 replicated the entire API surface of Win16, so they too had the same APIs, but nobody would have agreed that OS/2 and Windows were the same OS. I'm not claiming that to be a perfect analogy for this situation. It's only intended to make it clear that supporting the same APIs isn't enough. That's the point. If you still disagree, then just consider the Win32 API. That's a huge collection of features and functionality which W10 supports, but W10 mobile will not. If we were to draw two circles representing the API surface supported by both OSes, it would look something like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	circles.png 
Views:	179 
Size:	19.0 KB 
ID:	87030
    That those circles are not even close to fully overlapping should be a very clear hint that these two OSes are not one and the same.

    In my opinion, calling two OSes "the same" absolutely requires that both run the same software! That includes the millions of software packages that most associate with the name "Windows", which W10 mobile won't run! There are quite a few other things W10 mobile won't do, which I've mentioned elsewhere, but this is the only thing MS has so far publicly confirmed. The casual tech media continually suggesting these are one and the same OS leads to a lot of confusion. That is evidenced by many of the questions on this forum (how well will my W10 phone run desktop software? will W10 run on computers with 512 MB? etc etc etc). I think that makes it clear that there is value in being more accurate and technically truthful. That is why I'm not willing to ignore the differences, adopt the majority opinion, or chime in with some of the tech press (who for the most part are just parroting MS' marketing materials).
    Haha I respect you a5cent. You're like my rival :P but that's actually awesome that you're working with for a carrier. Let's just hope that the updates won't take forever with Windows 10 then Phone 8.
    a5cent likes this.
    11-10-2014 02:33 PM
  12. ShinraCorp's Avatar
    Microsoft is close to being able to start pulling control back into their court. With Windows 10 and Universal Apps/Common Shared Code + Microsoft Stores Growing Coast to Coast ( Both in US and Canada ), they can now start to chip away at the control of a company like Verizon.

    I think you will start to see the Terms on Exclusive deals fall to 3 Months. As Microsoft could soon start to load their stores up on Unlocked Phones.

    In the Past they were never able to load a Best Buy on Unlocked as most stores like that have deals in place with the Major Carriers. Which is why you can start a new account with AT&T or Sprint at a Box Store.

    This is not something that will happen, but could happen, which now gives Microsoft something to bargain with as Apple always sells Locked and Unlocked phones and the Carriers must accept.

    I'm in the section of the Market this would affect most. I have a Monthly plan on a SIM, not on a phone. I buy my phones outright. Thus no one can tell me it's to early to upgrade.
    So if Wind does not have the phone I want, I just go where ever and get it.

    No big Carrier wants "You" the person to have that control. It kills their business model of monthly payments on a service and phone.

    So should Microsoft ever pull something like that, it would not kill a Big Carrier, but it would impact on a business model that could start costly Law Suits that would swing in Microsoft's favor anyway as Apple has already set this as acceptable.
    I would go to Wind mobile in a heartbeat but there's only 1 problem.... They do not support the frequencies of my 1520... I got the AT&T model sadly, all the other versions work fine with Wind but the AT&T one? Forgetaboutit. Wind needs more spectrum if they wish to compete. I can bring the AT&T model to any carriers but WIND and Videotron.
    11-10-2014 02:34 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Haha I respect you a5cent. You're like my rival :P but that's actually awesome that you're working with for a carrier. Let's just hope that the updates won't take forever with Windows 10 then Phone 8.

    No way man! Compared to some others around here you're one of my best buddies! At least you're still talking to me! 😉

    Anyway, on the issue of updates... absolutely. So say we all...
    11-10-2014 03:01 PM
  14. ShinraCorp's Avatar
    No way man! Compared to some others around here you're one of my best buddies! At least you're still talking to me!

    Anyway, on the issue of updates... absolutely. So say we all...
    Haha really?
    11-10-2014 03:11 PM
  15. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    I would go to Wind mobile in a heartbeat but there's only 1 problem.... They do not support the frequencies of my 1520... I got the AT&T model sadly, all the other versions work fine with Wind but the AT&T one? Forgetaboutit. Wind needs more spectrum if they wish to compete. I can bring the AT&T model to any carriers but WIND and Videotron.
    I don't mind them really, I just check out a phone specs before I buy. As long as the 1700 and 2100 freq are in the phone I am good to go.
    Which was why I jumped on the 1020 from Rogers, it was Pentaband. A simple unlock and I was a happy guy.

    Sadly my eyes are letting me down and a Phablet is my next step. I looked at the 1520 but no love, so I think the 1320 or if rumors are true a 1330 will fill the bill. Get me some 6" #Lumialove :-)
    11-10-2014 03:34 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Haha really?

    Unfortunately, I kid you not.
    11-10-2014 04:13 PM

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