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11-24-2014 05:29 PM
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  1. Trill Gates's Avatar
    Tell me more Einstein. I'm fully aware that's what the i is. All I'm saying is the a Surface is a Product Line to put it in your terms, and is not a good solution for a brand term used across multiple devices.

    I could maybe see it used as so...

    Surface Pro
    Surface Mini
    Surface Phone

    But I think that's a bit wordy. Especially if you add version numbers in that. And phones are notorious for having many variations, so how many Surface Phones would you have?

    I think they're better off using Lumia + Version for phones. And Surface + Version for tablets. Much simpler. People are already used to Lumia and Surface as is, let's not muddy the waters more.
    No need to get so belligerent, it's not muddying the waters when the WP brand identity (in the US) is about as wet as the Sahara. The problem with Lumia flagships is that the Lumia name is also used in cheap low end phones. You'd never see Google place the "Nexus" name on a low end phone. And the 5c for all intents and purposes when it was released was a quality mid range at worst. Flip to the first pages of this thread where other users were talking about brand misconceptions of the Lumia name. Surface is premium hardware and people view it as such. The Microsoft product mix is not comparable to Apple's but rather to Google's Android, having Nexus as the inhouse flagship brand and using Motorola to build mid and low end phones. That method worked quite well for Google so much so they liquidated Motorola because its purpose to drive people to more Android running flagships was a huge success. The Windows 10 OS can run on multiple hardware brands for the same reason Windows 8 is on many PC brands and for the same reason Android is on a plethora of OEMs. I just don't know how anyone can defend the current strategy with the current market share and lack of growth WP has shown this past year. It's not working and until it does, it really doesn't hurt to talk about it rationally.
    11-22-2014 12:34 AM
  2. spaulagain's Avatar
    No need to get so belligerent, it's not muddying the waters when the WP brand identity (in the US) is about as wet as the Sahara. The problem with Lumia flagships is that the Lumia name is also used in cheap low end phones. You'd never see Google place the "Nexus" name on a low end phone. And the 5c for all intents and purposes when it was released was a quality mid range at worst. Flip to the first pages of this thread where other users were talking about brand misconceptions of the Lumia name. Surface is premium hardware and people view it as such. The Microsoft product mix is not comparable to Apple's but rather to Google's Android, having Nexus as the inhouse flagship brand and using Motorola to build mid and low end phones. That method worked quite well for Google so much so they liquidated Motorola because its purpose to drive people to more Android running flagships was a huge success. The Windows 10 OS can run on multiple hardware brands for the same reason Windows 8 is on many PC brands and for the same reason Android is on a plethora of OEMs.
    Maybe they will, but I don't think Lumia being used for low end phones and high end is that big a deal. Especially when Lumia low end phones are quite solid and great introductory phones. Being low end doesn't mean cheap, it just means spec'd lower. The quality can be and is just as good.

    I don't think Nexus is as high a brand name as you think. Ya those are the Google branded phones, but they've proven to be a miss match in quality.

    At the end of the day, Surface Phone just doesn't ring right anyways. I'd much rather just say I have a Lumia than a Surface Phone. Surface Phone sounds contrived and unnatural. But who knows, maybe that's why they're sticking it out for the new flagship. I'll buy it whatever it is.
    11-22-2014 12:45 AM
  3. Trill Gates's Avatar
    I disagree. The Lumia brand is well known especially in countries where Nokia is popular.
    The biggest problem for Microsoft is that it's not catching on in the US market. American smartphone buyers don't have the same level of nostalgic attachment to the Nokia name that Europeans do. Let's not kid ourselves either it's the Nokia name selling phones over in Europe not the "Lumia" name. The reason the US market is so critical to WP's longevity is because it's really the first and most important market to app developers. In order to have app parity with iOS and Android, Windows Phone needs to do better than 3% in the US. Big name app developers don't care if Windows Phones sell well in India or Brazil because they're developing markets with much higher levels of price sensitivity. Long story short no WP success in US = continued app woes.
    Last edited by Trill Gates; 11-22-2014 at 01:11 AM.
    11-22-2014 12:47 AM
  4. Vishnu Hs's Avatar
    Am I in my fluid mechanics class??
    11-22-2014 12:55 AM
  5. Trill Gates's Avatar
    Maybe they will, but I don't think Lumia being used for low end phones and high end is that big a deal. Especially when Lumia low end phones are quite solid and great introductory phones. Being low end doesn't mean cheap, it just means spec'd lower. The quality can be and is just as good.

    I don't think Nexus is as high a brand name as you think. Ya those are the Google branded phones, but they've proven to be a miss match in quality.

    At the end of the day, Surface Phone just doesn't ring right anyways. I'd much rather just say I have a Lumia than a Surface Phone. Surface Phone sounds contrived and unnatural. But who knows, maybe that's why they're sticking it out for the new flagship. I'll buy it whatever it is.
    Again this is not about personal individual perceptions/opinions of me or you or any individual for that matter. This is about market trends and analysis of past successful strategies employed by the competitors. Nexus is viewed as a premium line of phones by a good amount of people and that's all that matters, we can debate specs and reviews but again it's all about customer perception at a macro level.

    And I'd rather say I have a Surface phone than say I have a Lumia but to each his own. I'm only saying that the Lumia brand literally has no foothold or resonating power in the US market. Heck it could be argued that the Nokia name sold more phones than the "Lumia" name, especially in Europe where Nokia is beloved. The Surface name however unlike Lumia already is establishing itself with build quality and with enterprise professionals. The Lumia name standalone without Nokia literally has no established brand recognition in the US, which only means MSFT is going to have to work twice as hard to educate Americans (who want flagships) on an entire new brand name
    satrus08 likes this.
    11-22-2014 12:58 AM
  6. spaulagain's Avatar
    Again this is not about personal individual perceptions/opinions of me or you or any individual for that matter. This is about market trends and analysis of past successful strategies employed by the competitors. Nexus is viewed as a premium line of phones by a good amount of people and that's all that matters, we can debate specs and reviews but again it's all about customer perception at a macro level.

    And I'd rather say I have a Surface phone than say I have a Lumia but to each his own. I'm only saying that the Lumia brand literally has no foothold or resonating power in the US market. Heck it could be argued that the Nokia name sold more phones than the "Lumia" name, especially in Europe where Nokia is beloved. The Surface name however unlike Lumia already is establishing itself with build quality and with enterprise professionals. The Lumia name standalone without Nokia literally has no established brand recognition in the US, which only means MSFT is going to have to work twice as hard to educate Americans (who want flagships) on an entire new brand name
    And the Surface name just now got foothold. Up until 6 months ago everyone thought the Surface was a flop and just another awkward device from Microsoft.

    What works in the branding space is pretty hard to determine based on the current market. On one hand you have Apple with clear, brilliant marketing. On the other you have Android with clusterfvck branding that might as well just be random names pulled out of a hat. Both are doing well, although Android is the one killing it in smartphones.
    11-22-2014 11:53 AM
  7. Trill Gates's Avatar
    And the Surface name just now got foothold. Up until 6 months ago everyone thought the Surface was a flop and just another awkward device from Microsoft.

    What works in the branding space is pretty hard to determine based on the current market. On one hand you have Apple with clear, brilliant marketing. On the other you have Android with clusterfvck branding that might as well just be random names pulled out of a hat. Both are doing well, although Android is the one killing it in smartphones.
    Point is that 6 months of marketing success and continued word-of-mouth marketing among current SP3 owners as well as multiple large order enterprise deals is real tangible progress. The Lumia name in comparison is largely unknown, people identify my Icon as a Nokia, the Lumia name literally means nothing to them. When it comes to enterprise most firms want capable flagship devices and Microsoft would have to start from square one to inform and persuade everyone that Lumia is a player in the game. A Surface branded flagship phone circumvents this problem and attachs itself to the growing rapport associated with the Surface name.

    Lumia should be used to target those looking for affordable and more casual smartphones, and Surface should be the universal nomenclature for Microsoft's flagship mobile hardware which is targeted at enterprise and high end customers.
    11-22-2014 02:33 PM
  8. spaulagain's Avatar
    Point is that 6 months of marketing success and continued word-of-mouth marketing among current SP3 owners as well as multiple large order enterprise deals is real tangible progress. The Lumia name in comparison is largely unknown, people identify my Icon as a Nokia, the Lumia name literally means nothing to them. When it comes to enterprise most firms want capable flagship devices and Microsoft would have to start from square one to inform and persuade everyone that Lumia is a player in the game. A Surface branded flagship phone circumvents this problem and attachs itself to the growing rapport associated with the Surface name.

    Lumia should be used to target those looking for affordable and more casual smartphones, and Surface should be the universal nomenclature for Microsoft's flagship mobile hardware which is targeted at enterprise and high end customers.
    I don't think it was marketing success. Just a solid product. Microsoft's marketing has been better but the proof was in the pudding, the SP3 is a fantastic device that finally matches the marketing idea that's been pitched for 3+ years.
    11-22-2014 04:47 PM
  9. Trill Gates's Avatar
    I don't think it was marketing success. Just a solid product. Microsoft's marketing has been better but the proof was in the pudding, the SP3 is a fantastic device that finally matches the marketing idea that's been pitched for 3+ years.
    No, no, no my friend one of the first things we're taught in business is that a product/service is only as good as its marketing. We've seen amazingly marketed products of poor quality sell like hotcakes, yet no one has ever seen a quality product sell without marketing. Marketing is half the battle in the product development process, if the consumer doesn't know about it then the quality is simply irrelevant.

    1.) You need a solid product
    2.) You need to know who your target market is
    3.) You need to introduce, educate, persuade and remind the consumer of your product(s).

    Apple and Android are currently in the "remind" phase of the development cycle because their product growth is at what we marketers call the "maturity stage" which means their brand is well established and all that's needed is steady reminder marketing.

    Microsoft is still at the introductory phase of the product cycle with Windows Phone, I mean honestly you have no idea how many people don't know about Windows Phone. I wish I had a penny for every time someone asked me if my Nokia was an Android. Alot of people have the perception that there's Apple iPhones and everything else that doesn't bare the Apple logo is "an Android".

    Marketing is everything, good marketing also creates word of mouth advertising and good marketing creates a cult following and fashion statement of sorts for the brand. Apple inc is what they are today because they're arguably the most brilliantly marketed corporation in the world.

    From the "1984 Ad" to the iPod Shadows to the Mac vs PC, to the countless iPhone ads. Apple has outdone Microsoft at the turn of the century because of MARKETING, both firms made quality products but one was just so so much better at marketing.

    See the whole Zune music player debacle. Not only was MSFT late to the game (like they are now) but the Zune marketing campaign just couldn't hold a candle to Apple's iPod campaign. This despite the Zune being every bit as solidly built as the iPods of the time.The original Xbox gaming console might have suffered the same fate as Zune up against the juggernauts of Sony and Nintendo had it not been for the world class excellency of the Xbox exclusive games, primarily Bungie's Halo series (you may have heard of it).
    11-22-2014 07:07 PM
  10. spaulagain's Avatar
    No, no, no my friend one of the first things we're taught in business is that a product/service is only as good as its marketing. We've seen amazingly marketed products of poor quality sell like hotcakes, yet no one has ever seen a quality product sell without marketing. Marketing is half the battle in the product development process, if the consumer doesn't know about it then the quality is simply irrelevant.

    1.) You need a solid product
    2.) You need to know who your target market is
    3.) You need to introduce, educate, persuade and remind the consumer of your product(s).

    Apple and Android are currently in the "remind" phase of the development cycle because their product growth is at what we marketers call the "maturity stage" which means their brand is well established and all that's needed is steady reminder marketing.

    Microsoft is still at the introductory phase of the product cycle with Windows Phone, I mean honestly you have no idea how many people don't know about Windows Phone. I wish I had a penny for every time someone asked me if my Nokia was an Android. Alot of people have the perception that there's Apple iPhones and everything else that doesn't bare the Apple logo is "an Android".

    Marketing is everything, good marketing also creates word of mouth advertising and good marketing creates a cult following and fashion statement of sorts for the brand. Apple inc is what they are today because they're arguably the most brilliantly marketed corporation in the world.

    From the "1984 Ad" to the iPod Shadows to the Mac vs PC, to the countless iPhone ads. Apple has outdone Microsoft at the turn of the century because of MARKETING, both firms made quality products but one was just so so much better at marketing.

    See the whole Zune music player debacle. Not only was MSFT late to the game (like they are now) but the Zune marketing campaign just couldn't hold a candle to Apple's iPod campaign. This despite the Zune being every bit as solidly built as the iPods of the time.The original Xbox gaming console might have suffered the same fate as Zune up against the juggernauts of Sony and Nintendo had it not been for the world class excellency of the Xbox exclusive games, primarily Bungie's Halo series (you may have heard of it).
    But people knew about the Surface. That wasn't the issue. The issue was that the product failed to meet the requirements it was being marketed for. The SP3 was the first version that actually fit the mold it was being marketed by so its doing well.

    At the end of the day, marketing only goes so far, the product has to take it the rest of the way.
    11-23-2014 11:25 AM
  11. Ashalinia's Avatar
    You mean Nokia Lumina?? lol
    Where did the n come from I wonder ...
    From a line of Chevrolet cars that should've never existed...
    11-23-2014 11:41 AM
  12. Trill Gates's Avatar
    But people knew about the Surface. That wasn't the issue. The issue was that the product failed to meet the requirements it was being marketed for. The SP3 was the first version that actually fit the mold it was being marketed by so its doing well.

    At the end of the day, marketing only goes so far, the product has to take it the rest of the way.
    No that's not always the case, people have bought into crap products that just had brilliant marketing. Like the iPhone 6 for example still only has 1 GB of RAM and only an 8MP camera (although that doesn't make it crap) it just proves that if your marketing is elite and your brand reputation/status is elite then you can slack off and sell uninspired phone after uninspired phone. Nokia busted their butts designing bold and revolutionary phones like the 1020 and 1520 but since their marketing prowess and brand loyalty had a falling off in the US it just didn't matter.

    Product quality matters just not as much as marketing I'm afraid.
    11-23-2014 12:46 PM
  13. spaulagain's Avatar
    No that's not always the case, people have bought into crap products that just had brilliant marketing. Like the iPhone 6 for example still only has 1 GB of RAM and only an 8MP camera (although that doesn't make it crap) it just proves that if your marketing is elite and your brand reputation/status is elite then you can slack off and sell uninspired phone after uninspired phone. Nokia busted their butts designing bold and revolutionary phones like the 1020 and 1520 but since their marketing prowess and brand loyalty had a falling off in the US it just didn't matter.

    Product quality matters just not as much as marketing I'm afraid.
    The iPhone 6 is a horrible example of what you are trying to prove. Even though it's not my cup of tea, the iPhone 6 is a great phone. It's not a piece of crap just marketed well. It's a solid phone. And just because the specs don't match the latest and great Android phone, doesn't make it a peice of crap. In fact I bet the iPhone 6 performs better than all the current Android devices even with it having lower specs.
    FinancialP likes this.
    11-23-2014 03:19 PM
  14. Trill Gates's Avatar
    The iPhone 6 is a horrible example of what you are trying to prove. Even though it's not my cup of tea, the iPhone 6 is a great phone. It's not a piece of crap just marketed well. It's a solid phone. And just because the specs don't match the latest and great Android phone, doesn't make it a peice of crap. In fact I bet the iPhone 6 performs better than all the current Android devices even with it having lower specs.
    Are you kidding? There's no way you can be serious or maybe you're just arguing for the sake of it. Just look up all the iPhone 6 rumors and hype leading up to the release. Everyone in the Apple tech journalism community was expecting wireless charging, waterproofing, a camera more similar to the MP found in the Galaxy S5, the fabled "Sapphire glass" was supposed to be revolutionary and it turned out to be no more scratch resistant than Gorilla Glass 2 never mind GG3. In other words everyone expected it to match and/or surpass its chief rival the Samsung Galaxy S5, and if dropped the ball on that promise.

    I'm also aware that the 1GB of RAM is sufficient to run iOS8 smoothly, Windows Phone is also an OS that runs well on lower levels of RAM. Do you think if the upcoming 930 & 1520's successor only has 1GB or RAM and an 8MP camera is going to fly with anyone here on this site? What would the problem be? We know WP runs smooth on lower hardware specs, so many people would leave WP if it acted like Apple. The problem with the iPhone6 is that it's got the guts of a mid range phone but is priced like a luxury flagship. I could lay down $1200 bucks (yes 1200) for an unlocked 128 GB iPhone 6+ and at that price I don't get anything more than a base model iPhone6 beyond the storage space and screen size/resolution. That's $600 extra dollars for only .8 inches of screen and 112 extra GB's over the base model.

    Apple clearly made the iPhone6/6+ as cheaply as possible so they could have ridiculously high profit margins per device sold, and why wouldn't they? People will still buy them at an absurd rate because Apple's brand loyalty and marketing is second to none. Proving my argument that unimpressive products can sell if the right person is selling it.
    11-23-2014 04:13 PM
  15. spaulagain's Avatar
    Are you kidding? There's no way you can be serious or maybe you're just arguing for the sake of it. Just look up all the iPhone 6 rumors and hype leading up to the release. Everyone in the Apple tech journalism community was expecting wireless charging, waterproofing, a camera more similar to the MP found in the Galaxy S5, the fabled "Sapphire glass" was supposed to be revolutionary and it turned out to be no more scratch resistant than Gorilla Glass 2 never mind GG3. In other words everyone expected it to match and/or surpass its chief rival the Samsung Galaxy S5, and if dropped the ball on that promise.

    I'm also aware that the 1GB of RAM is sufficient to run iOS8 smoothly, Windows Phone is also an OS that runs well on lower levels of RAM. Do you think if the upcoming 930 & 1520's successor only has 1GB or RAM and an 8MP camera is going to fly with anyone here on this site? What would the problem be? We know WP runs smooth on lower hardware specs, so many people would leave WP if it acted like Apple. The problem with the iPhone6 is that it's got the guts of a mid range phone but is priced like a luxury flagship. I could lay down $1200 bucks (yes 1200) for an unlocked 128 GB iPhone 6+ and at that price I don't get anything more than a base model iPhone6 beyond the storage space and screen size/resolution. That's $600 extra dollars for only .8 inches of screen and 112 extra GB's over the base model.

    Apple clearly made the iPhone6/6+ as cheaply as possible so they could have ridiculously high profit margins per device sold, and why wouldn't they? People will still buy them at an absurd rate because Apple's brand loyalty and marketing is second to none. Proving my argument that unimpressive products can sell if the right person is selling it.
    There is nothing crappy about the iPhone 6. I personally don't like it, but to pretend that the iPhone 6 is some POS that only sells because of marketing is ludicrous. And you know what's funny, despite all those shortfalls you point out, I would still take an iPhone 6 over an S5 any day. The S5 is ugly as hell which is reason enough for me not to buy it. Oh ya, and the S5 met just as much disappointment when it was launched.

    There is so much more to buying a device than just comparing specs. That's what kills me about Android fans, that's all they care about, specs and features. Who cares if its a pain in the *** to use, lags like hell, or is uglier than sin, it's got a zillion features I'll never use and can't figure out how to use anyways!
    FinancialP likes this.
    11-23-2014 07:10 PM
  16. Trill Gates's Avatar
    There is nothing crappy about the iPhone 6. I personally don't like it, but to pretend that the iPhone 6 is some POS that only sells because of marketing is ludicrous. And you know what's funny, despite all those shortfalls you point out, I would still take an iPhone 6 over an S5 any day. The S5 is ugly as hell which is reason enough for me not to buy it. Oh ya, and the S5 met just as much disappointment when it was launched.

    There is so much more to buying a device than just comparing specs. That's what kills me about Android fans, that's all they care about, specs and features. Who cares if its a pain in the *** to use, lags like hell, or is uglier than sin, it's got a zillion features I'll never use and can't figure out how to use anyways!
    First of all I'm not an Android fan, I'm actually a former iOS user who left because Apple got so stale and boring. I don't think you even read my reply in its entirety. The top line iPhone6+ is $1200 that's American dollars not Mexican pesos. For that price I can buy a 256GB Surface Pro 3 with an i5 processor. You cannot even begin to tell me that a $1200 smartphone should only come with 1GB of RAM and a camera that's inferior to my old Nokia 928.
    "There's so much more to a device than comparing specs" ya if I paid four figures for a phone that's comparable to Windows Phones and Androids from 2012 I'd be trying to rationalize it too.

    Apple kept their production costs low by only offering one RAM size across all models and one 8MP camera across all models for maximized profits because people like you are now hypnotized by the Apple brand name. It's beyond any reason to say the $1,200 6+ model gives me any value for the buck. That's before factoring in Apple's proprietary accessories and insurance plan. So $1500 bucks later I have a phone that's inferior to a $499 Nokia 830.
    Last edited by Trill Gates; 11-23-2014 at 10:35 PM.
    11-23-2014 09:05 PM
  17. someone2639's Avatar
    First of all I'm not an Android fan, I'm actually a former iOS user who left because Apple got so stale and boring. I don't think you even read my reply in its entirety. The top line iPhone6+ is $1200 that's American dollars not Mexican pesos. For that price I can buy a 256GB Surface Pro 3 with an i5 processor. You cannot even begin to tell me that a $1200 smartphone should only come with 1GB of RAM and a camera that's inferior to my old Nokia 928.
    "There's so much more to a device than comparing specs" ya if I paid four figures for a phone that's comparable to Windows Phones and Androids from 2012 I'd be trying to rationalize it too.

    Apple kept their production costs low by only offering one RAM size across all models and one 8MP camera across all models for maximized profits because people like you are now hypnotized by the Apple brand name. It's beyond any reason to say the $1,200 6+ model gives me any value for the buck. That's before factoring in Apple's proprietary accessories and insurance plan. So $1500 bucks later I have a phone that's inferior to a $499 Nokia 830.
    Well said. I hope friends will understand.
    Trill Gates likes this.
    11-24-2014 04:56 PM
  18. jomarr's Avatar
    This would be awesome.
    Trill Gates likes this.
    11-24-2014 05:29 PM
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