(Optimistic Surface Phone Theory) Could it be possible that Lumia is for low/mid range and Surface i

[spaulagain]

So many people have the apps issue backwards, apps do NOT come before users. Apple and Android have so many Apps flying into their stores because they have so many people leaving actual stores with iPhones and Android devices. We cannot convince devs to come to WP with the promise of future users. It just doesn't work that way.
Availability, that's on Microsoft.
Carriers pushing other phones. Well if I was a salesman working on commission I'd too be selling the brand spanking new iPhone and Android phones, Microsoft isn't giving the flagship US market anything to compete with the newest iPhones and Androids.

Where did I say apps come before users? Android and iOS came before the app market even existed for the smartphone industry. Android and iPhone gained market share from the other means as described, but now that the user base has fermented, the app availability is a key decision factor for people staying with the platforms or new users joining the platform.

Availability is an issue for OEMs. Which now include Microsoft. I think you'll see availability issues fade in 2015 as MS has a little more girth to throw around than Nokia did when it comes to carriers.

 

[spaulagain]

That is the same, the lower case i before a product name is Apple's trademark. Apple used the massive amount of momentum generated by the iPod, to name and launch the iPhone (to huge success), then again used the lower case i to brand the iPad (again with much success). Its such a good product identifier that they even use it for their services and apps, iTunes, iMessage and iCloud. There's no confusion anything with the lower case i is now instantly associated with Apple.

Not only does Samsung employ this tactic with Galaxy, but Google has done the same with "Nexus" phones and tablets, the proof is in the pudding, Apple and Android customers aren't in any way confused by names. If anyone is confused about anything it's about all these different Microsoft brand names, and yes I bet 9/10 Galaxy owners would know exactly what model of phone they have. Pardon the clich? but less really is more sometimes.

Again, its not the same. It's the same nomenclature, not the same name.

Microsoft could do the same by creating XTablet and XPhone to go along with Xbox. But that is not the same as a Surface Phone and a Surface. No one says "Surface Tablet." They say Surface. And Surface is too long a word to be used as prefix nomenclature.

I'm not completely against a Surface Phone, I just don't think it will be of any added benefit. The Lumia name has a good reputation, and pretty well known at least internationally. And segmenting Surface Phone for enterprise is just silly. We've already learned over the past 5 years that there is no definitive line between enterprises and consumers. So trying to create a product line based on that premise is foolish.

It's much easier to remember a Surface is a tablet, a Lumia is a phone then trying to use that name to define some arbitrary line in "levels" of a products quality, etc.

 

[Trill Gates]

Again, its not the same. It's the same nomenclature, not the same name.

Microsoft could do the same by creating XTablet and XPhone to go along with Xbox. But that is not the same as a Surface Phone and a Surface. No one says "Surface Tablet." They say Surface. And Surface is too long a word to be used as prefix nomenclature.

I'm not completely against a Surface Phone, I just don't think it will be of any added benefit. The Lumia name has a good reputation, and pretty well known at least internationally. And segmenting Surface Phone for enterprise is just silly. We've already learned over the past 5 years that there is no definitive line between enterprises and consumers. So trying to create a product line based on that premise is foolish.

It's much easier to remember a Surface is a tablet, a Lumia is a phone then trying to use that name to define some arbitrary line in "levels" of a products quality, etc.

The lower case i branding is entirely an Apple identifier, and is arguably the best branding scheme in tech history because it's simple and instantly identifiable with Apple. If we walked up to random people in public and quizzed them on who makes the Surface Pro 3 and Lumia *insert number* how many would correctly answer Microsoft? On the other we could literally make up a product that's fictional and use the lower case i and I guarantee 99% would guess Apple.
"There's an upcoming smart TV called the iTele, made by who?" They'd all guess Apple because Apple has successfully created a universal Apple product trademark. Microsoft for as much as I love their products is just terrible at branding, hence the numerous rebrands all their product and service lines seem to get. You think Apple is ever going to stop using the lower case i?

 

[spaulagain]

The lower case i branding is entirely an Apple identifier, and is arguably the best branding scheme in tech history because it's simple and instantly identifiable with Apple. If we walked up to random people in public and quizzed them on who makes the Surface Pro 3 and Lumia *insert number* how many would correctly answer Microsoft? On the other we could literally make up a product that's fictional and use the lower case i and I guarantee 99% would guess Apple.
"There's an upcoming smart TV called the iTele, made by who?" They'd all guess Apple because Apple has successfully created a universal Apple product trademark. Microsoft for as much as I love their products is just terrible at branding, hence the numerous rebrands all their product and service lines seem to get. You think Apple is ever going to stop using the lower case i?

I 100% agree, that's what I was saying. They use the same naming convention, not the same name.

That being said, Apple has stopped using the "i" with the "Apple Watch"

Which is why so many people were like "WTF?"

 

[Trill Gates]

Where did I say apps come before users? Android and iOS came before the app market even existed for the smartphone industry. Android and iPhone gained market share from the other means as described, but now that the user base has fermented, the app availability is a key decision factor for people staying with the platforms or new users joining the platform.

Availability is an issue for OEMs. Which now include Microsoft. I think you'll see availability issues fade in 2015 as MS has a little more girth to throw around than Nokia did when it comes to carriers.

More people are concerned about having to learn how to properly use an entire new OS than they are apps, my roommate who works at ATT just outside a college campus says the thing so many people are concerned(or intimidated) about phones is how to use them. Specifically less tech savvy people over 30, if they've grown to iOS then it's going to be much less likely they'll want an Android or Surface tablet over an iPad with an identical OS and interface. Brand loyalty and more importantly familiarity play a huge role in horizontal movement of your users in your ecosystem. The American public at large doesn't know the Lumia name which requires MS to run an entirely separate product line marketing campaign to educate consumers. Whereas the Surface is finally gaining credibility and critical acclaim and viewed as a quality premium competitor to Apple hardware. No current Windows Phone has come remotely as close to position itself against Apple's flagships. The other problem with a Lumia flagship is that the brand name is also used on cheap 500 series phones, which hurts the brand's reputation in the premium market. It would be like Fiat using the Ferrari logo and brand name on cheap hatchbacks. It's never a good idea to name premium and budget products under the same name.

 

[Trill Gates]

I 100% agree, that's what I was saying. They use the same naming convention, not the same name.

That being said, Apple has stopped using the "i" with the "Apple Watch"

Which is why so many people were like "WTF?"

The lower case i is the branding of Apple's mega successful product mix, "Pod" "Phone" "Pad" etc are subset product lines under the universal i moniker. The brand name is the lowercase i, iPhone is NOT a brand it's just an Apple PRODUCT LINE name.

 

[spaulagain]

The lower case i is the branding of Apple's mega successful product mix, "Pod" "Phone" "Pad" etc are subset product lines under the universal i moniker. The brand name is the lowercase i, iPhone is NOT a brand it's just an Apple PRODUCT LINE name.

Tell me more Einstein. I'm fully aware that's what the i is. All I'm saying is the a Surface is a Product Line to put it in your terms, and is not a good solution for a brand term used across multiple devices.

I could maybe see it used as so...

Surface Pro
Surface Mini
Surface Phone

But I think that's a bit wordy. Especially if you add version numbers in that. And phones are notorious for having many variations, so how many Surface Phones would you have?

I think they're better off using Lumia + Version for phones. And Surface + Version for tablets. Much simpler. People are already used to Lumia and Surface as is, let's not muddy the waters more.

 

[Yazen]

How Intel plans to break into smartphones | PCWorld

Nokia Devices + Intel + W10 = Surface Phone?

 

[LumiaWorld]

A Surface branded phone or any high end phone with a built in stylus that works on the SP3 and phone would be too good to be true. Just the sense to brand their phones Surface instead of Lumia shows their marketing failure in itself. It's proven time and time again that no one cares about Lumia. I've never heard anyone reference WP as a Lumia. I'd never call my phone a Lumia. People know them as WP or 920 or 1520. Lumia could be omitted forever and no one would care. It just doesn't resonate with the world, not just from my perspective, but everyone I know too. Even in talking to staff at stores and carriers, they omit Lumia in reference. It's just terrible.

Microsoft just doesn't have the talent or marketing capability to make something that awesome, not even in name.

I disagree. The Lumia brand is well known especially in countries where Nokia is popular.

 

[Yazen]

You mean Nokia Lumina?? lol
Where did the n come from I wonder ...

 

[Trill Gates]

Tell me more Einstein. I'm fully aware that's what the i is. All I'm saying is the a Surface is a Product Line to put it in your terms, and is not a good solution for a brand term used across multiple devices.

I could maybe see it used as so...

Surface Pro
Surface Mini
Surface Phone

But I think that's a bit wordy. Especially if you add version numbers in that. And phones are notorious for having many variations, so how many Surface Phones would you have?

I think they're better off using Lumia + Version for phones. And Surface + Version for tablets. Much simpler. People are already used to Lumia and Surface as is, let's not muddy the waters more.

No need to get so belligerent, it's not muddying the waters when the WP brand identity (in the US) is about as wet as the Sahara. The problem with Lumia flagships is that the Lumia name is also used in cheap low end phones. You'd never see Google place the "Nexus" name on a low end phone. And the 5c for all intents and purposes when it was released was a quality mid range at worst. Flip to the first pages of this thread where other users were talking about brand misconceptions of the Lumia name. Surface is premium hardware and people view it as such. The Microsoft product mix is not comparable to Apple's but rather to Google's Android, having Nexus as the inhouse flagship brand and using Motorola to build mid and low end phones. That method worked quite well for Google so much so they liquidated Motorola because its purpose to drive people to more Android running flagships was a huge success. The Windows 10 OS can run on multiple hardware brands for the same reason Windows 8 is on many PC brands and for the same reason Android is on a plethora of OEMs. I just don't know how anyone can defend the current strategy with the current market share and lack of growth WP has shown this past year. It's not working and until it does, it really doesn't hurt to talk about it rationally.

 

[spaulagain]

No need to get so belligerent, it's not muddying the waters when the WP brand identity (in the US) is about as wet as the Sahara. The problem with Lumia flagships is that the Lumia name is also used in cheap low end phones. You'd never see Google place the "Nexus" name on a low end phone. And the 5c for all intents and purposes when it was released was a quality mid range at worst. Flip to the first pages of this thread where other users were talking about brand misconceptions of the Lumia name. Surface is premium hardware and people view it as such. The Microsoft product mix is not comparable to Apple's but rather to Google's Android, having Nexus as the inhouse flagship brand and using Motorola to build mid and low end phones. That method worked quite well for Google so much so they liquidated Motorola because its purpose to drive people to more Android running flagships was a huge success. The Windows 10 OS can run on multiple hardware brands for the same reason Windows 8 is on many PC brands and for the same reason Android is on a plethora of OEMs.

Maybe they will, but I don't think Lumia being used for low end phones and high end is that big a deal. Especially when Lumia low end phones are quite solid and great introductory phones. Being low end doesn't mean cheap, it just means spec'd lower. The quality can be and is just as good.

I don't think Nexus is as high a brand name as you think. Ya those are the Google branded phones, but they've proven to be a miss match in quality.

At the end of the day, Surface Phone just doesn't ring right anyways. I'd much rather just say I have a Lumia than a Surface Phone. Surface Phone sounds contrived and unnatural. But who knows, maybe that's why they're sticking it out for the new flagship. I'll buy it whatever it is.

 

[Trill Gates]

I disagree. The Lumia brand is well known especially in countries where Nokia is popular.

The biggest problem for Microsoft is that it's not catching on in the US market. American smartphone buyers don't have the same level of nostalgic attachment to the Nokia name that Europeans do. Let's not kid ourselves either it's the Nokia name selling phones over in Europe not the "Lumia" name. The reason the US market is so critical to WP's longevity is because it's really the first and most important market to app developers. In order to have app parity with iOS and Android, Windows Phone needs to do better than 3% in the US. Big name app developers don't care if Windows Phones sell well in India or Brazil because they're developing markets with much higher levels of price sensitivity. Long story short no WP success in US = continued app woes.

 

[Vishnu Hs]

Am I in my fluid mechanics class??

 

[Trill Gates]

Maybe they will, but I don't think Lumia being used for low end phones and high end is that big a deal. Especially when Lumia low end phones are quite solid and great introductory phones. Being low end doesn't mean cheap, it just means spec'd lower. The quality can be and is just as good.

I don't think Nexus is as high a brand name as you think. Ya those are the Google branded phones, but they've proven to be a miss match in quality.

At the end of the day, Surface Phone just doesn't ring right anyways. I'd much rather just say I have a Lumia than a Surface Phone. Surface Phone sounds contrived and unnatural. But who knows, maybe that's why they're sticking it out for the new flagship. I'll buy it whatever it is.

Again this is not about personal individual perceptions/opinions of me or you or any individual for that matter. This is about market trends and analysis of past successful strategies employed by the competitors. Nexus is viewed as a premium line of phones by a good amount of people and that's all that matters, we can debate specs and reviews but again it's all about customer perception at a macro level.

And I'd rather say I have a Surface phone than say I have a Lumia but to each his own. I'm only saying that the Lumia brand literally has no foothold or resonating power in the US market. Heck it could be argued that the Nokia name sold more phones than the "Lumia" name, especially in Europe where Nokia is beloved. The Surface name however unlike Lumia already is establishing itself with build quality and with enterprise professionals. The Lumia name standalone without Nokia literally has no established brand recognition in the US, which only means MSFT is going to have to work twice as hard to educate Americans (who want flagships) on an entire new brand name

 

[spaulagain]

Again this is not about personal individual perceptions/opinions of me or you or any individual for that matter. This is about market trends and analysis of past successful strategies employed by the competitors. Nexus is viewed as a premium line of phones by a good amount of people and that's all that matters, we can debate specs and reviews but again it's all about customer perception at a macro level.

And I'd rather say I have a Surface phone than say I have a Lumia but to each his own. I'm only saying that the Lumia brand literally has no foothold or resonating power in the US market. Heck it could be argued that the Nokia name sold more phones than the "Lumia" name, especially in Europe where Nokia is beloved. The Surface name however unlike Lumia already is establishing itself with build quality and with enterprise professionals. The Lumia name standalone without Nokia literally has no established brand recognition in the US, which only means MSFT is going to have to work twice as hard to educate Americans (who want flagships) on an entire new brand name

And the Surface name just now got foothold. Up until 6 months ago everyone thought the Surface was a flop and just another awkward device from Microsoft.

What works in the branding space is pretty hard to determine based on the current market. On one hand you have Apple with clear, brilliant marketing. On the other you have Android with clusterfvck branding that might as well just be random names pulled out of a hat. Both are doing well, although Android is the one killing it in smartphones.

 

[Trill Gates]

And the Surface name just now got foothold. Up until 6 months ago everyone thought the Surface was a flop and just another awkward device from Microsoft.

What works in the branding space is pretty hard to determine based on the current market. On one hand you have Apple with clear, brilliant marketing. On the other you have Android with clusterfvck branding that might as well just be random names pulled out of a hat. Both are doing well, although Android is the one killing it in smartphones.

Point is that 6 months of marketing success and continued word-of-mouth marketing among current SP3 owners as well as multiple large order enterprise deals is real tangible progress. The Lumia name in comparison is largely unknown, people identify my Icon as a Nokia, the Lumia name literally means nothing to them. When it comes to enterprise most firms want capable flagship devices and Microsoft would have to start from square one to inform and persuade everyone that Lumia is a player in the game. A Surface branded flagship phone circumvents this problem and attach?s itself to the growing rapport associated with the Surface name.

Lumia should be used to target those looking for affordable and more casual smartphones, and Surface should be the universal nomenclature for Microsoft's flagship mobile hardware which is targeted at enterprise and high end customers.

 

[spaulagain]

Point is that 6 months of marketing success and continued word-of-mouth marketing among current SP3 owners as well as multiple large order enterprise deals is real tangible progress. The Lumia name in comparison is largely unknown, people identify my Icon as a Nokia, the Lumia name literally means nothing to them. When it comes to enterprise most firms want capable flagship devices and Microsoft would have to start from square one to inform and persuade everyone that Lumia is a player in the game. A Surface branded flagship phone circumvents this problem and attach?s itself to the growing rapport associated with the Surface name.

Lumia should be used to target those looking for affordable and more casual smartphones, and Surface should be the universal nomenclature for Microsoft's flagship mobile hardware which is targeted at enterprise and high end customers.

I don't think it was marketing success. Just a solid product. Microsoft's marketing has been better but the proof was in the pudding, the SP3 is a fantastic device that finally matches the marketing idea that's been pitched for 3+ years.

 

[Trill Gates]

I don't think it was marketing success. Just a solid product. Microsoft's marketing has been better but the proof was in the pudding, the SP3 is a fantastic device that finally matches the marketing idea that's been pitched for 3+ years.

No, no, no my friend one of the first things we're taught in business is that a product/service is only as good as its marketing. We've seen amazingly marketed products of poor quality sell like hotcakes, yet no one has ever seen a quality product sell without marketing. Marketing is half the battle in the product development process, if the consumer doesn't know about it then the quality is simply irrelevant.

1.) You need a solid product
2.) You need to know who your target market is
3.) You need to introduce, educate, persuade and remind the consumer of your product(s).

Apple and Android are currently in the "remind" phase of the development cycle because their product growth is at what we marketers call the "maturity stage" which means their brand is well established and all that's needed is steady reminder marketing.

Microsoft is still at the introductory phase of the product cycle with Windows Phone, I mean honestly you have no idea how many people don't know about Windows Phone. I wish I had a penny for every time someone asked me if my Nokia was an Android. Alot of people have the perception that there's Apple iPhones and everything else that doesn't bare the Apple logo is "an Android".

Marketing is everything, good marketing also creates word of mouth advertising and good marketing creates a cult following and fashion statement of sorts for the brand. Apple inc is what they are today because they're arguably the most brilliantly marketed corporation in the world.

From the "1984 Ad" to the iPod Shadows to the Mac vs PC, to the countless iPhone ads. Apple has outdone Microsoft at the turn of the century because of MARKETING, both firms made quality products but one was just so so much better at marketing.

See the whole Zune music player debacle. Not only was MSFT late to the game (like they are now) but the Zune marketing campaign just couldn't hold a candle to Apple's iPod campaign. This despite the Zune being every bit as solidly built as the iPods of the time.The original Xbox gaming console might have suffered the same fate as Zune up against the juggernauts of Sony and Nintendo had it not been for the world class excellency of the Xbox exclusive games, primarily Bungie's Halo series (you may have heard of it).

 

[spaulagain]

No, no, no my friend one of the first things we're taught in business is that a product/service is only as good as its marketing. We've seen amazingly marketed products of poor quality sell like hotcakes, yet no one has ever seen a quality product sell without marketing. Marketing is half the battle in the product development process, if the consumer doesn't know about it then the quality is simply irrelevant.

1.) You need a solid product
2.) You need to know who your target market is
3.) You need to introduce, educate, persuade and remind the consumer of your product(s).

Apple and Android are currently in the "remind" phase of the development cycle because their product growth is at what we marketers call the "maturity stage" which means their brand is well established and all that's needed is steady reminder marketing.

Microsoft is still at the introductory phase of the product cycle with Windows Phone, I mean honestly you have no idea how many people don't know about Windows Phone. I wish I had a penny for every time someone asked me if my Nokia was an Android. Alot of people have the perception that there's Apple iPhones and everything else that doesn't bare the Apple logo is "an Android".

Marketing is everything, good marketing also creates word of mouth advertising and good marketing creates a cult following and fashion statement of sorts for the brand. Apple inc is what they are today because they're arguably the most brilliantly marketed corporation in the world.

From the "1984 Ad" to the iPod Shadows to the Mac vs PC, to the countless iPhone ads. Apple has outdone Microsoft at the turn of the century because of MARKETING, both firms made quality products but one was just so so much better at marketing.

See the whole Zune music player debacle. Not only was MSFT late to the game (like they are now) but the Zune marketing campaign just couldn't hold a candle to Apple's iPod campaign. This despite the Zune being every bit as solidly built as the iPods of the time.The original Xbox gaming console might have suffered the same fate as Zune up against the juggernauts of Sony and Nintendo had it not been for the world class excellency of the Xbox exclusive games, primarily Bungie's Halo series (you may have heard of it).

But people knew about the Surface. That wasn't the issue. The issue was that the product failed to meet the requirements it was being marketed for. The SP3 was the first version that actually fit the mold it was being marketed by so its doing well.

At the end of the day, marketing only goes so far, the product has to take it the rest of the way.