The Windows 10 April 2018 update has arrived! Get the new Dell XPS 15, starting at $999.99
04-03-2015 08:41 AM
157 ... 4567
tools
  1. Plazma1's Avatar
    This can't be final UI. Way too much looks unpolished and unusable at this point. The appbars are now three clicks away. I'm sure there are teams of designers figuring this stuff out and waiting to polish it off.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    01-26-2015 11:03 PM
  2. BigbyWolf7's Avatar
    Couldn't have agreed more. I've never liked the hamburger button to begin with and the one they have in the OneDrive app even less so. You tap it to open a nearly blank page only to either view the accounts you have or add OneDrive for business. I really think the triple dot settings button(what is it called really?) on the bottom left would've sufficed. Even people I know who have never used windows phones before immediately recognized it and knows that it brings up a settings menu. Aesthetically the tripple dot is cleaner, takes uop less screen space and really isn't that hard to get used to even if you're coming from another platform. If Microsoft really wants to stick with the burger for the sake of cross-platform accessibilty, perhaps give the rest of us a option to turn it off?
    01-27-2015 12:45 AM
  3. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    01-28-2015 01:08 AM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Some searching surfaces dozens of articles, all of which reveal that many UI designers all over the world have long been questioning side panel navigation. It's not just us. However, only during this last year has empirical data from A/B testing been publicly released, showing just how much of a negative impact hamburgers can have on user engagement. Unfortunately, MS has never provided a standard approach to this type of navigation on WP (although hubs do fit the bill, but not for all types of apps). As a result, many apps don't do a better job than their Android/iOS equivalents, but some do.

    MS is now, with W10M, finally committing to a standard method for UI navigation. Ironically it's the approach others, particularly the big name apps, are slowly moving away from...
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-28-2015 at 04:39 AM.
    01-28-2015 04:02 AM
  5. mortici's Avatar
    My simple solution for the "universal" apps is to recognize a Device/OS string that tells the app its running on 6" or smaller, and moves those UI elements down below, or loads a different set of UI elements that are hidden on a bigger screen and vice versa. This way the app scales to the device and is truly Universal by definition.
    01-28-2015 10:38 AM
  6. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    My simple solution for the "universal" apps is to recognize a Device/OS string that tells the app its running on 6" or smaller, and moves those UI elements down below, or loads a different set of UI elements that are hidden on a bigger screen and vice versa. This way the app scales to the device and is truly Universal by definition.

    Yes!!
    01-28-2015 10:43 AM
  7. tiziano27's Avatar
    The hamburger menu should contain options that aren't commonly used.
    If the app is simple it makes sense to use it alone, for example the Picture gallery in W10.
    If the app has more content, then it should be used in conjunction with tabs, for example the Calendar in W10.
    If the app has lots of content then is unavoidable to add some more used options to the menu, for example the current Facebook app.

    I think you guys are interpreting poorly the article. It's specific to iOS in which the tabs are at the bottom and the back button is at the top. Of course the hamburger menu at the top is bad idea in iOS, because It conflicts with other UI elements. But the solution proposed is functionally equivalent to an hamburger with tabs, for other OS without these restrictions.

    More adequately this article criticize the problems in pivots and panoramas. The panorama hints only the next tab, the pivot max three tabs, everything else is hidden. It's not easy to discover the content and the navigation is difficult because the tabs are always changing.
    Metro has to be improved or replaced with something better. Windows 10 is doing exactly that for the benefit of the users.
    Last edited by tiziano27; 01-28-2015 at 11:03 AM.
    01-28-2015 10:52 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    I think you guys are interpreting poorly the article. It's specific to iOS in which the tabs are at the bottom and the back button is at the top.
    I would make the same claim in reverse ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I think that all navigation controls should be at the bottom, or within the lower 1/3rd... just like the back button is at the bottom. Keep all navigational control close to each other. Don't make my fingers reach to all four corners of the screen just to navigate an app's content, which is the most common task on a smartphone.

    I agree with you that pivots have some problems, not always, but sometimes. The question is if this replication of poor ideas is really the best we can do...
    01-28-2015 12:58 PM
  9. Nicholas Lovan's Avatar
    OMG!!! Not the Hamburger menu! It will kill us all until we die from it!



    I believe you are more than capable of handling a hamburger menu. I believe in you bro. [A Tear]
    Death by burgers. XD
    xandros9 likes this.
    01-28-2015 01:05 PM
  10. tiziano27's Avatar
    I would make the same claim in reverse ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I think that all navigation controls should be at the bottom, or within the lower 1/3rd... just like the back button is at the bottom. Keep all navigational control close to each other. Don't make my fingers reach to all four corners of the screen just to navigate an app's content, which is the most common task on a smartphone.

    I agree with you that pivots have some problems, not always, but sometimes. The question is if this replication of poor ideas is really the best we can do...


    I know you think that, but the article is not about that.

    Besides, tabs can be navigated dragging pixels in any part of the screen, you don't need to have the page titles at the bottom.
    01-28-2015 02:23 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    I know you think that, but the article is not about that.
    No it isn't, but there is some overlap between both topics which you aren't seeing for some reason. Anyway, your entire argument boils down to three points:

    1. replicating more parts of Android/iOS UI will make W10M more familiar to Android and iOS users, thus increasing W10M's market share
    2. replicating more parts of Android/iOS UI will encourage developers to engage more with WP because it makes app development easier/cheaper
    3. Android and iOS are commercially more successful, so it follows they must have the better approach

    At least the first and the third points are obviously incorrect. The second is correct in the sense that less visual variability can make porting apps to W10 slightly cheaper, but whether that by itself will lead to higher engagement by developers is highly doubtful. It would make a difference if the cost of app development for WP was the main cause for the app gap, but it isn't. You're trying to convince us that this is an important solution, but at least as far as it relates to developer engagement and the app gap , the problem it solves (even if we assume an unrealistically generous 20% cost reduction) is barely relevant.
    blackdaemon likes this.
    01-28-2015 04:37 PM
  12. tiziano27's Avatar
    No it isn't, but there is some overlap between both topics which you aren't seeing for some reason. Anyway, your entire argument boils down to three points:

    1. replicating more parts of Android/iOS UI will make W10M more familiar to Android and iOS users, thus increasing W10M's market share
    2. replicating more parts of Android/iOS UI will encourage developers to engage more with WP because it makes app development easier/cheaper
    3. Android and iOS are commercially more successful, so it follows they must have the better approach

    At least the first and the third points are obviously incorrect. The second is correct in the sense that less visual variability can make porting apps to W10 slightly cheaper, but whether that by itself will lead to higher engagement by developers is highly doubtful. It would make a difference if the cost of app development for WP was the main cause for the app gap, but it isn't. You're trying to convince us that this is an important solution, but at least as far as it relates to developer engagement and the app gap , the problem it solves (even if we assume an unrealistically generous 20% cost reduction) is barely relevant.
    The design MS showed is great, including the hamburger menu and commands at the top. That makes a better product and more sales.

    A happy Windows 10 user interested in the same user experience for her phone will find exactly that in WP, not a weird mess.

    An Android user interested in WP will find a familiar user experience, not a weird mess.

    Purchasing decisions are taken in minutes at the stores. There is no time to understand a weir mess. Buying a WP already requires a leap of faith, there is no need to make it harder.

    ...
    I don't see how a lower cost of development and maintenance won't improve developer adoption. What other costs am I missing?
    01-28-2015 08:31 PM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    I think that all navigation controls should be at the bottom, or within the lower 1/3rd... just like the back button is at the bottom. Keep all navigational control close to each other. Don't make my fingers reach to all four corners of the screen just to navigate an app's content, which is the most common task on a smartphone.
    The hamburger menu, at least on android, can be opened by dragging in from the side of the screen anywhere on the side it's on. You don't have to tap the actual button.
    01-28-2015 09:04 PM
  14. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    The hamburger menu, at least on android, can be opened by dragging in from the side of the screen anywhere on the side it's on. You don't have to tap the actual button.

    Yes. But to to use the menus inside a hamburger, you have to tap them which are in the upper left corner of the screen which is hard to reach.
    01-28-2015 10:23 PM
  15. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    The design MS showed is great, including the hamburger menu and commands at the top. That makes a better product and more sales.
    II'll tell you why hamburger and tabs are not a good choice for UI.
    Okay, tabs. You say, you can see only 3 pivots in an app at a time. Yeah agree. That's why tabs are better. No, I don't agree. If the tabs are text based, only 4 tabs are shown at a time which is not so many more compared to the 3 pivots. If you want to fit more than 4 tabs, you have to use icons. Which takes users into thinking, guessing what that icon means. Good choice for UI? No! If you inserted more than 5 tabs in a single screen, it becomes cluttered and ugly.
    See? WP was designed to be easy to use. If smaller text is used for pivots like here in tapatalk app, I don't see any problem in pivots. Neither aesthetically, nor functionally.


    A happy Windows 10 user interested in the same user experience for her phone will find exactly that in WP, not a weird mess.

    An Android user interested in WP will find a familiar user experience, not a weird mess.

    Purchasing decisions are taken in minutes at the stores. There is no time to understand a weir mess. Buying a WP already requires a leap of faith, there is no need to make it harder.

    ...
    I don't see how a lower cost of development and maintenance won't improve developer adoption. What other costs am I missing?
    Don't agree purchasing decisions are taken in minutes at a store. People usually while buying a phone, first ask their friends. Friends suggest what they are using which is Android or iPhone mostly.

    Second thing is apps. People think, 'if there is no snapchat app, no any official Google app, Twitter is not that functional, you can't change profile picture or cover photo in FB app, why should I buy this phone?' There is the problem you see?


    Even after all this, a user tries to buy a WP, the guy at the store says, don't buy WP, it's not good. People blindly believe it. Heck where I live, these people even say, don't buy Sony Android, it is not as easy to use as Samsung Android.
    Arhitecter and Kram Sacul like this.
    01-28-2015 10:49 PM
  16. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    And the UI part, that you say, tiziano27, that people get confused with Metro UI and are familiar with hamburger and tabs, my observation is, it is even harder for people to understand Start screen. When people say, I find WP UI difficult, they refer to Start screen and not the pivots and ellipsis. They don't know how Start screen works. And the app list which is a vertical scrollable list, people find that odd. They are familiar with grid of icons. So, by going with your theory, to make WP familiar to those who use Android and iOS, shall MS scrape Start screen too? Hell no! When people are heading in a wrong direction, you show them right direction. Mass is not always right. That's why Apple never uses hamburger in their own apps. And big companies ex. Twitter and many more are moving away from it. It is only Google which is supporting it. And we are just copying them.
    01-28-2015 11:00 PM
  17. Vaibhav Vibhu's Avatar
    Seeing all the screen shots I think that the new UI is much better!! We would need sometime to adjust ourselves but this upgrade is worth it!!
    01-29-2015 12:06 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    The hamburger menu, at least on android, can be opened by dragging in from the side of the screen anywhere on the side it's on. You don't have to tap the actual button.
    It's not that simple. It is not Android, but the app which defines how that works. Same is true of iOS and WP (so far at least). Metrotube also has a side menu for which a visual queue is present on screen at all times, and only requires panning (there is no button at all), while Tapatalk's has no visual queue and requires explicit use of the hamburger on the top left. When does panning work for side menu access? It works only when panning isn't used for some other function. In Tapatalk, panning is used to switch between the participated, timeline and unread views. In a mapping application, panning is used to scroll the map. In iOS' and W10's mail client, panning is used to flag or delete mails. In all those cases, and thousands of others, the same gesture can't simultaneously be used to open a side menu, not even on Android. Pivots come with similar limitations.

    In a nutshell, the functions an app has, how the developer exposes them to users, and the means by which users navigate within and across apps are co-dependent on an influence each other. It's a thornier issue than it first appears to be.
    white_Shadoww and Kevin Rush like this.
    01-29-2015 06:32 AM
  19. tgp's Avatar
    while Tapatalk's has no visual queue and requires explicit use of the hamburger on the top left.
    Hmmm, I haven't found a hamburger menu yet on Android that doesn't open by panning. Of course, I don't use every app in the Play Store, but of the ones I use it all works that way, including Tapatalk.

    In a mapping application, panning is used to scroll the map. In iOS' and W10's mail client, panning is used to flag or delete mails. In all those cases, and thousands of others, the same gesture can't simultaneously be used to open a side menu, not even on Android. Pivots come with similar limitations.
    It even works in the mail client. You can pan in from the side to open the hamburger menu in the Gmail app, and you pan (same direction) an email to archive or delete it. Maybe the limitation is iOS & WP.
    a5cent likes this.
    01-29-2015 07:05 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    It even works in the mail client. You can pan in from the side to open the hamburger menu in the Gmail app, and you pan (same direction) an email to archive or delete it. Maybe the limitation is iOS & WP.
    Nah, we can implement the same for WP and iOS. No problem. I'm not sure it's the best solution however (discoverability, etc). The point is we can't reuse the same gesture for two things, but yes, edge swipes and non-edge swipes are two different gestures. You are right. Apple's guidelines recommend against it, which is probably why we don't often see it on iOS. I have never even seen that discussed for WP.

    Anyway, for reasons mentioned in my previous post, I don't think discussing any single aspect of navigation in isolation makes much sense. More importantly, pondering over the best way to open a side menu, while many doubt the side menu is even a generally good idea, is akin to putting the cart before the horse.

    Until we have a catalogue that lists all the functional problems an ideal navigational solution should solve, which we could also use as a basis for judging existing solutions, this thread will just continue to go in circles.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    01-29-2015 08:13 AM
  21. tgp's Avatar
    Nah, we can implement the same for WP and iOS.
    Ha ha I know! I said that tongue-in-cheek. What it boils down to is that on the limited real estate of a mobile device, there is no perfect solution. Until everything is voice activated, I believe we'll have to make compromises somewhere in navigation. But to me the option to open the hamburger menu by panning is one way to help optimize a less-than-optimal solution. I guess I'm not sure what the downside is.

    The way the panning works is that if you slide in from the very edge of or off the screen it opens the hamburger menu. If you want to pan the email itself, just start your slide in from the edge a bit. Yes, discoverability is an issue, but you soon figure it out, by accident if necessary.
    a5cent likes this.
    01-29-2015 08:21 AM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ no issues with that. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Just remember that recent studies have shown that the time spent using an app drops by about 20%, if it uses side menus for navigational purposes (seems amazing to me but the data is there). Like you said, no solution is perfect, so it boils down to whether that is the best compromise we can make?
    tgp likes this.
    01-29-2015 08:29 AM
  23. tgp's Avatar
    ^ no issues with that.

    Just remember that recent studies have shown that the time spent using an app drops by about 20%, if it uses side menus for navigational purposes (seems amazing to me but the data is there).
    What does that mean? This data could mean 2 things:

    1. Users don't like the side menu (most likely)
    2. The side menu makes the app more efficient
    Nicholas Lovan likes this.
    01-29-2015 08:48 AM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ You're over thinking it. Out of sight = out of mind (combined with an icon that is intuitive only by convention) is all it means.
    01-29-2015 09:12 AM
  25. skinnypig118's Avatar
    My simple solution for the "universal" apps is to recognize a Device/OS string that tells the app its running on 6" or smaller, and moves those UI elements down below, or loads a different set of UI elements that are hidden on a bigger screen and vice versa. This way the app scales to the device and is truly Universal by definition.
    I like your idea, except I would say that the differentiator of what UI elements to show/hide/move/resize really should be the input method (i.e. keyboard/mouse vs. touch), though I guess a combination of input method *and* size would also make sense in some cases.

    And we know MS is already taking steps in this direction because we can see from the demos UI elements change when a PC is dock/undock via Continuum.
    02-17-2015 09:58 PM
157 ... 4567

Similar Threads

  1. Hamburger menu, One Windows, iPhone/iPad
    By timbo_sf2 in forum Windows 10
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-22-2015, 03:43 AM
  2. Windows 10 Start menu can switch to full screen, new action center for notifications
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-21-2015, 11:42 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-16-2015, 05:36 AM
  4. Why desktop tile flicker everytime I go to start menu?
    By mildor in forum Microsoft Surface Pro 3
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-11-2015, 01:20 PM
  5. Unable open "access point" in settings menu
    By faalil in forum Applications
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-11-2015, 12:13 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD