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02-18-2015 11:51 AM
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  1. excalibur1814's Avatar
    How do you create a text on Windows phone?

    Think about it! You create the text and then move to the top to add the person. Might as well have the options at the top. It's hardly a crazy thing and not a great deal to complain about.

    Are we now living in an age where complainers just complain? (Obviously)
    TheCudder likes this.
    01-22-2015 04:01 AM
  2. Wyn6's Avatar
    This! Why does it have a back button at the top left when WP already has a back (capacitive/on-screen) button. This looks tailored for iOS tbh.

    Attachment 94440
    To be fair, when you tap into individual emails on current 8.1 devices, they have a back and forward button despite a capacitive/hardware/on-screen back button.
    01-22-2015 05:15 AM
  3. Alfa Kapa's Avatar
    To be fair, when you tap into individual emails on current 8.1 devices, they have a back and forward button despite a capacitive/hardware/on-screen back button.
    He is talking about the upper left back button


    I hope that they somehow bring the upper left button (hamburger) ,on the bottom and completely dismiss the 2nd back button, because we already have one!

    It is really a shame not investing on the perfectly practical and functional layout of WP8.1 .
    My 630 has a 4.5" and even in this size, I find it unintuitive to reach for the upper corners! (I'm not a basketball player, that's why)

    I also agree that if they move the buttons up, you will be blocking the content of the page .
    Hope they hear!
    01-22-2015 05:33 AM
  4. tiziano27's Avatar
    That's the reply button, not a back button.
    01-22-2015 06:06 AM
  5. envio's Avatar
    I know we're still looking at early builds but since I was very vocal in criticizing the OneDrive 4.4.0 UI changes that gave a big nod to Androidification, I must agree with the OP on the poor direction that Microsoft is taking with their universal apps for Office. Unfortunately, it completely takes away from the awesomeness (can't believe I used that word!) of what touch Office will be on phones, compared to the offering we have now on WP8.1. Imagine having the full Word engine in the email editor with rich formatting, tables etc! And yet, the UI stuff that they figured out way back in WP7 in terms of clean, simple, clear typographical UI presentation, they've undone for Windows 10 in big way.

    We have to challenge this direction -- it worked for OneDrive, it can work again for Office. #saynotohamburgerUI
    a5cent and heat 33330 like this.
    01-22-2015 06:26 AM
  6. wuiyang's Avatar
    i hope ALL buttons are on bottom, that would be great, if there's no more spaces for it, use slide-able context menu to put it, with tabs, like UC browser
    01-22-2015 06:32 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    Might as well have the options at the top. It's hardly a crazy thing and not a great deal to complain about.

    Are we now living in an age where complainers just complain? (Obviously)
    Obviously people here disagree with you. I'd be among them, and I don't think anybody would consider me a "whiner".

    There is a difference between saying:

    "This sucks! MS has their head up their rear end! Give me what I want or I'm moving to Android..."

    and

    "I don't like this because... and I think it would be better if..."

    At least so far, this thread is very much the later and not the former, so I'd say it's fine. It's feedback. The kind MS is asking for.

    When it comes to UI design, I think minimalism and a consistent look& feel is a very big deal. I understand that not everyone can appreciate it though, like fine wine. That doesn't make it irrelevant however.
    01-22-2015 06:39 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    My reasoning for disliking what was shown (copied from here):

    • The occasional" back arrow" showing up seems confusing and unnecessary, given that WP has a hardware back button.
    • There is already a lot of edge UI originating from the top, and all of it can cover up those navigation controls. Consider Joe's demonstration. What if he had started writing his response to the text message he received, and then realised he needs to check something in a word document? He can't, because the navigational controls are occluded by the interactive toast message. Even the small version of the audio panel that extends from the top edge would cover up half of that navigational strip. How many people will accidentally tap a navigational button, rather than expand the audio panel as they might have intended?
    • A result of placing a lot of controls at the top of the screen, is that our hands will spend a lot more time blocking our view. Half the time we'll not even see the effect tapping a control at the top of the screen had, so we'll move our hand out of the way, just to move back again to invoke the next action. We're used to this on iPhones, but not on WP. It was the sum of these little things (good UI is always about little things), that made WP better. To put it more extremely, why don't we place the keyboard at the top of the screen instead of the bottom. Same reason. If Metro was all about "content over chrome", this is now about "hands over content".

    The bottom and right (for right handed people) or left (for left handed people) edges are the best places for commands and navigational chrome. Controls at the top of the screen only work well for things that are used briefly and only occasionally (like volume controls).
    01-22-2015 06:45 AM
  9. raphok's Avatar
    that's a reply button and back button too

    Wow, 3 left arrows (2 back buttons and 1 reply button)

    01-22-2015 06:53 AM
  10. Sagar Limaye's Avatar
    I hate the new button layout! Good thing is, we still have time to fix it. When the insider program starts, we can root out this horrible, counter-intuitive, Android-ish UI.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    01-22-2015 06:57 AM
  11. tiziano27's Avatar
    My reasoning for disliking what was shown (copied from here):

    • The occasional" back arrow" showing up seems confusing and unnecessary, given that WP has a hardware back button.
    • There is already a lot of edge UI originating from the top, and all of it can cover up those navigation controls. Consider Joe's demonstration. What if he had started writing his response to the text message he received, and then realised he needs to check something in a word document? He can't, because the navigational controls are occluded by the interactive toast message. Even the small version of the audio panel that extends from the top edge would cover up half of that navigational strip. How many people will accidentally tap a navigational button, rather than expand the audio panel as they might have intended?
    • A result of placing a lot of controls at the top of the screen, is that our hands will spend a lot more time blocking our view. Half the time we'll not even see the effect tapping a control at the top of the screen had, so we'll move our hand out of the way, just to move back again to invoke the next action. We're used to this on iPhones, but not on WP. It was the sum of these little things (good UI is always about little things), that made WP better. To put it more extremely, why don't we place the keyboard at the top of the screen instead of the bottom. Same reason. If Metro was all about "content over chrome", this is now about "hands over content".

    The bottom and right (for right handed people) or left (for left handed people) edges are the best places for commands and navigational chrome. Controls at the top of the screen only work well for things that are used briefly and only occasionally (like volume controls).


    Is there another capture that shows a back arrow?, because I think in the one posted here, that back arrow is the reply command.

    Popups should block the underlying UI, or at least block the UI close to the popup. They could also make the volume popup bigger.

    When activating a command through touch, you're concentrated targeting the command with the finger, so the effect of the command is out of your visual field. Most of the time the effect of the command is obvious, so there is no need to see the exact change of state. When really want to see the effect give your hand a little angle using your wrist.

    The bottom location has problems too, most people don't pay attention to the bottom of the screen. For example, It's a know fact that notification bars at the bottom are never seen. So, there is a little bit of mental overhead to go for the commands at the bottom, specially for new users.
    01-22-2015 07:06 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Is there another capture that shows a back arrow?, because I think in the one posted here, that back arrow is the reply command.
    a) the image posted here has two back arrows in the top bar. I doubt both are reply commands.
    b) I also saw these two arrows during the Windows 10 presentation, but I can't remember in which part.

    Popups should block the underlying UI, or at least block the UI close to the popup. They could also make the volume popup bigger.
    Blocking the underlying UI while an interactive toast message is on screen, or while the audio panel is being shown, is a pretty bad idea. Blocking just part of the UI that is close to the overlay is even worse. Instead of just fiddling around the corners and fixing symptoms, why not go after the actual problem. That would make a lot more sense IMHO, particularly as there is no reason for these problems to exist in the first place. It's an artificial problem that is easily solved by finding a better way to host navigational chrome.

    The bottom location has problems too, most people don't pay attention to the bottom of the screen. <snipped> So, there is a little bit of mental overhead to go for the commands at the bottom
    And they don't have to. A static row of commands and an ellipsis are, amongst other reasons, at the bottom precisely because they are not supposed to draw your attention. You're supposed to be focusing on the content. I don't think the mental overhead involved in looking for commands at the bottom of the screen is too much to ask.
    01-22-2015 07:25 AM
  13. tiziano27's Avatar
    a) the image posted here has two back arrows in the top bar. I doubt both are reply commands.
    The other arrows are to navigate to the next and previous email, those commands are in the email app in 8.1.
    Besides, if that is not the reply button, where is the reply button?!


    And they don't have to. A static row of commands and an ellipsis are, amongst other reasons, at the bottom precisely because they are not supposed to draw your attention. You're supposed to be focusing on the content. I don't think the mental overhead involved in looking for commands at the bottom of the screen is too much to ask.
    But when people try WP, just after a couple of minutes they're asking for their iOS/Android phone back. The UI is weird, they can't find the commands, they aren't immediately visible and intuitively positioned as in the other devices, including Windows PCs.
    01-22-2015 07:55 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    The other arrows are to navigate to the next and previous email, those commands are in the email app in 8.1.
    Besides, if that is not the reply button, where is the reply button?!.
    Good point. You're probably right. In that case the only problem is the placement at the top left, where people automatically assume it's related to navigation (like the hamburger button), which the arrow seems to make even more clear (in this case falsely). Another reason to keep those things at the bottom in the command bar. ;-)

    But when people try WP, just after a couple of minutes they're asking for their iOS/Android phone back. The UI is weird, they can't find the commands, they aren't immediately visible and intuitively positioned as in the other devices, including Windows PCs.
    Not my experience, but fine. We'll have to accept that the people we know and that we've witnessed using WP for the first time, have a different approach to technology.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-22-2015 at 08:44 AM. Reason: spelling
    01-22-2015 08:36 AM
  15. envio's Avatar
    Look at the phone, I struggle to see any modern UI in the upcoming XBOX universal app. There are a lot of icons that have no obvious visual identity and no label.

    1-wheres-modern-ui-gone.png
    Mahdi Ghiasi and heat 33330 like this.
    01-22-2015 08:51 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Look at the phone, I struggle to see any modern UI in the upcoming XBOX universal app. There are a lot of icons that have no obvious visual identity and no label.
    Hmm... and what is that arrow at the top left of the xbox app on the phone, right next to the hamburger button? Also a reply button? (sorry tiziano27, couldn't resist)

    As for everything else.... man... that hurts my eyes and insults my design sensibilities... The UI is 60% chrome.
    James8561 likes this.
    01-22-2015 08:54 AM
  17. tiziano27's Avatar
    Hmm... and what is that arrow at the top left of the xbox app on the phone, right next to the hamburger button? Also a reply button? (sorry tiziano27, couldn't resist)
    Well, everything has an explanation. That's just a mock up. It's the layout of an 8-inch tablet in portrait orientation, scaled down to fit in the phone. The XBOX app for phone is not ready.

    The 8-inch tablet won't have hard nor soft buttons as the phone does. So, in that context they add the back button as they do in Windows 8.

    But that opens other question.. what is more important, perfect consistency or avoid the redundancy of the back button?
    01-22-2015 09:16 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    what is more important, perfect consistency or avoid the redundancy of the back button?
    Why are you framing that as an "either/or" choice? How about both? Like I said, you don't need consistency from 30" displays all the way down to 4.5" smartphones. You do need consistency within a particular category of device. On smartphones with a hardware back button, software back buttons are not acceptable. Period. Secondly, nobody is talking about perfect consistency. There are always exceptions that break the rules. It becomes problematic only when something becomes so inconsistent that you're no longer sure what the rules are. That's where this is headed. And that's what people should be opposed to.
    blackdaemon and James8561 like this.
    01-22-2015 09:23 AM
  19. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I agree with what most people are saying here. For those of you who are upset at this change, are you communicating this to Microsoft/Windows Phone in a proper constructive manner, or are you just b**ching about it here where your angst will just go into the toilet and never be read in Redmond? Mmm?
    01-22-2015 09:23 AM
  20. SteveNoza's Avatar
    I think the arguments of using the top buttons block your view don't apply as the only time you use them is when you're navigating through your mail (in this case), not when you're typing, typing still works the same. It could even be set up so when the keyboard pops up it would hide the top ribbon.
    01-22-2015 09:24 AM
  21. tiziano27's Avatar
    Why are you framing that as an "either/or" choice? How about both? Like I said, you don't need consistency from 30" displays all the way down to 4.5" smartphones. You do need consistency within a particular category of device. On smartphones with a hardware back button, software back buttons are not acceptable. Period. Secondly, nobody is talking about perfect consistency. There are always exceptions that break the rules. It becomes problematic only when something becomes so inconsistent that you're no longer sure what the rules are. That's where this is headed. And that's what people should be opposed to.
    Well, the leading platform, that gets 85% of the love, has both kind of back buttons, and sometimes they do the same, other times not.

    But, I agree in this case, I wouldn't add the redundant back button just for consistency, even though It could be confusing to use a 8-inch tablet and a 6-inch phablet with that difference. The concept is easy to grasp, the problem is the muscle memory.
    01-22-2015 09:47 AM
  22. Arhitecter's Avatar
    I'm in a rage, they destroy everything I love in WP: hubs, ellipsis, typography design, uniform and simple look for all apps.
    01-22-2015 09:48 AM
  23. luisfarelo's Avatar
    They are destroying Windows Phone, I don't know if I'll be staying.
    01-22-2015 09:49 AM
  24. grininja's Avatar
    "All buttons are going to the top! Horrible". No, they aren't!
    01-22-2015 09:51 AM
  25. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I think the arguments of using the top buttons block your view don't apply as the only time you use them is when you're navigating through your mail (in this case), not when you're typing, typing still works the same. It could even be set up so when the keyboard pops up it would hide the top ribbon.
    Yep. I think it's also important for us to keep in mind is that if this is a universal app. Desktop users don't have a capacity back button and every desktop user is used to having the menu of every application at the top. keeping the code consistent is important, hence the menu at the top. Even at 1:21:55 in the presentation below Joe B said it's the same code.



    Yes, it would be nice for MS to give a phone user the option the change the menu to the bottom and maybe that may be the case, if we gather together and suggest it. Maybe it would happen.
    01-22-2015 09:53 AM
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