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02-18-2015 11:51 AM
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  1. Slovenix's Avatar
    Yes, let's keep Windows Phone exactly the same because clearly that's working for Microsoft. If they keep listening to you guys there won't be a Windows Phone in 2 years. You guys are over reacting to an OS you haven't even had hands on yet (one that's not complete at that) Something to think about, how many Android or iOS user are running from their devices because it's so difficult to use?
    I shall like all your comments!
    01-23-2015 12:40 AM
  2. anon(5969054)'s Avatar
    Yes, let's keep Windows Phone exactly the same because clearly that's working for Microsoft. If they keep listening to you guys there won't be a Windows Phone in 2 years. You guys are over reacting to an OS you haven't even had hands on yet (one that's not complete at that) Something to think about, how many Android or iOS user are running from their devices because it's so difficult to use?
    They don't know better. When you don't know better it's easy to get used to bad habits.
    blackdaemon and Kevin Rush like this.
    01-23-2015 02:49 AM
  3. Alfa Kapa's Avatar
    Yes, let's keep Windows Phone exactly the same because clearly that's working for Microsoft. If they keep listening to you guys there won't be a Windows Phone in 2 years. You guys are over reacting to an OS you haven't even had hands on yet (one that's not complete at that) Something to think about, how many Android or iOS user are running from their devices because it's so difficult to use?
    Yes, change is good, but it is idiotic to move the majority of buttons at the top of the screen.
    In my opinion MS got it backwards.
    With WP7 , 8 (and even 8.1), which devices at the time had 3.7'' - 4.7'' screens, they made the decision to put the buttons on the bottom, and now with many devices with 5''+ screens, they want to move the buttons at the top? What the hell MS?

    If everybody jumps of the cliff we are going to do the same?
    I don't think there is anyone on this forum not wanting WP to evolve but clearly this is NOT the way forward.
    And we are not talking about not getting unified apps or new designs, we are talking about the buttons moving to the top!
    Look at the spartan browser.. WHY the address bar is on the top?!

    People using WP, can make an impact on the future release and we only want the best.
    I don't think there will be people saying ''nah, I won't get a windows phone because the buttons is at the bottom''!

    It's a simple matter of practicality and ease of use. And if WP succeed, I sense that firstly ANDROID and then iOS will slowly move towards bottom located buttons which are clearly the way forward (since devices getting bigger and bigger).
    01-23-2015 03:48 AM
  4. Narathan's Avatar
    If you look at it from another perspective - if the buttons were still on the bottom, how are you going to translate this to the xbox and desktop/tablets? Seems akward to use on those. Also, they want to unify the OS for the same experience on other platforms. Both the Android and iOS apps have these buttons at the top because the OS doesn't support it. It could be confusing for new users that are searching for that "menu" button from other platforms.

    Not saying I love this approach, but I've seen enough people getting frustrated with using my phone because the layout "doesn't make sense" for buttons to be on the bottom. Honestly, I can't really blame them. I think its a good move - for now. And we can always sound off in the feedback forums they provide.

    But honestly, if people really didn't want to see the hamburger buttons top, it makes me wonder why they are still there since the first preview. I find it hard to believe they just put them up there "because thats how we like it". Surely there's people that actually dig it?
    TheCudder likes this.
    01-23-2015 07:27 AM
  5. DrewT3's Avatar
    No wonder that's when things started to go down hill. If you don't have basic guidelines or a quality standard on the user experience you can end up with chaotic garbage. The embarrassing UI mistakes we've seen in Windows 10 are evidence of that.
    I think MS had some visionary designers in the Zune/WP7 days, when they were a little island in MS running Windows CE. Once the Windows 8 group got involved it was taken over by design hacks, and that is what we are stuck with today.
    Windows getting uglier, Android and IOS getting better looking.
    01-23-2015 08:24 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    If you look at it from another perspective - if the buttons were still on the bottom, how are you going to translate this to the xbox and desktop/tablets?
    We've already seen almost exactly this at the W10 announcement. Universal apps running on tablets, that move commands in the ribbon (on top) to a list of commands in the open command bar when running on a phone (on the bottom), is an example of exactly that, just in reverse. Because it's in one location on a large screen, doesn't mean it must be at the same location on a small screen. You only need a consistent mapping between the differing UI concepts used on different devices.
    01-23-2015 09:00 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    Windows getting uglier, Android and IOS getting better looking.
    I'm pretty sure you know this, but its worthwhile remembering that what we saw were very early versions of those apps, and that they may visually not at all yet represent where MS envisions them ending up. Software never looks pretty while its being built. It's not really fair to judge MS too harshly on this, particularly since they aren't obligated to give us these early peeks at all.
    01-23-2015 11:01 AM
  8. Arhitecter's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure you know this, but its worthwhile remembering that what we saw were very early versions of those apps, and that they may visually not at all yet represent where MS envisions them ending up. Software never looks pretty while its being built. It's not really fair to judge MS too harshly on this, particularly since they aren't obligated to give us these early peeks at all.
    On the event yes, but what about actual version of OneDrive client? It's not an early version. I personally scare that what we see on W10 event is really a "new vision" of windows design from MS.
    a5cent likes this.
    01-23-2015 04:14 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Yeah, I'm also aware and weary of that "coincidence". I'd just rather not yet have WCentral drifting off into another nerd rage 😊 It's far too early for that.
    01-23-2015 04:48 PM
  10. blackdaemon's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure you know this, but its worthwhile remembering that what we saw were very early versions of those apps, and that they may visually not at all yet represent where MS envisions them ending up. Software never looks pretty while its being built. It's not really fair to judge MS too harshly on this, particularly since they aren't obligated to give us these early peeks at all.
    Maybe I will sound too pessimistic but I am almost sure this is the way it's gonna be and very few things will change in final version. This is their new vision (unfortunately). This is MS and I heard that mantra many times (its not final wait for final version). We got that with transition to wp8 and then again to wp8.1. And regarding the feedback... I feel that UserVoice is just a black hole for users complaints and it is never a driver for any changes, just so that they can say "we are listening to your feedback". I will be the happiest person if they prove me wrong, but I am on WP since Mango and I have seen enough already. People with Metro UI vision are no more working for MS and there is nobody to drive it further. All great things eventually come to an end, but I wasn't expecting it so early. Call me pessimist, but I am realist.
    01-23-2015 05:58 PM
  11. Arhitecter's Avatar
    Maybe I will sound too pessimistic but I am almost sure this is the way it's gonna be and very few things will change in final version. This is their new vision (unfortunately).
    Heh, I want hope, but most likely you right. Probably, managers MS want simple ported android apps more than everything else, to "solve" a problem.
    01-23-2015 06:27 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Maybe I will sound too pessimistic but I am almost sure this is the way it's gonna be and very few things will change in final version.
    I've been on WP since Mango too. You may be right. I don't know. What I can say is that we have never, not once in the history of MS, seen a new version of WP this early in the development stage. That should at least count for something. It at least looks like a different MS.
    01-23-2015 06:50 PM
  13. tiziano27's Avatar
    Heh, I want hope, but most likely you right. Probably, managers MS want simple ported android apps more than everything else, to "solve" a problem.
    That is one of the good side effects of these changes, if Microsoft decides to support Android apps in WP, they will look at home, not too different from the core apps of the OS.

    Other possibility is Microsoft porting this new UI to Android and iOS, providing a cross platform framework for developers based on C#, or WinJS/TypeScript with the new Trident engine.
    Of course few would adopt this UI for Android and iOS in the consumer market, but in the enterprise market It could be the solution to the cross platform problem. Write once and run in PCs and mobile, for a fraction of the cost of HTML5.
    01-23-2015 07:16 PM
  14. tiziano27's Avatar
    Maybe I will sound too pessimistic but I am almost sure this is the way it's gonna be and very few things will change in final version. This is their new vision (unfortunately). This is MS and I heard that mantra many times (its not final wait for final version). We got that with transition to wp8 and then again to wp8.1. And regarding the feedback... I feel that UserVoice is just a black hole for users complaints and it is never a driver for any changes, just so that they can say "we are listening to your feedback". I will be the happiest person if they prove me wrong, but I am on WP since Mango and I have seen enough already. People with Metro UI vision are no more working for MS and there is nobody to drive it further. All great things eventually come to an end, but I wasn't expecting it so early. Call me pessimist, but I am realist.
    I think you're realistic, beside the discourse, I didn't see any major change to W10 based on feedback.

    Terry Myerson pushed WP7 when he was in charge of mobile, now he's in charge of full Windows. These changes aren't accidental, the guy took the decision to modify his "baby" for a greater good.
    01-23-2015 07:28 PM
  15. cool8man's Avatar
    Yes, let's keep Windows Phone exactly the same because clearly that's working for Microsoft. If they keep listening to you guys there won't be a Windows Phone in 2 years. You guys are over reacting to an OS you haven't even had hands on yet (one that's not complete at that) Something to think about, how many Android or iOS user are running from their devices because it's so difficult to use?
    If they conform to every bad design idea from Android and iOS then there won't be any point in Windows surviving.

    Should In-N-Out burger sell tacos and burritos and go national because Taco Bell is more popular and cheap meat is more popular/profitable? Some people actually care about the quality of the product they're selling and they should put all the pressure in the world on Microsoft to back away from this total sell out of Metro design principles.

    What I have seen of Windows Phone 10 apps so far is an unmitigated disaster. Buttons/controls at the top of the screen, swipe anywhere pivot navigation completely dead, mystery meat buttons all over the place, hamburger menus always out of thumbs reach. They are copying a bad design invented for a 3.5" phone from 2007. It is a matter of fact that this design language is a complete failure on modern smart phones, look at how stupidly Apple has to deal with this terrible design: "Big screen" mode which blanks out the top half of your screen so you can reach the buttons. What Microsoft is now copying is a proven failure, an outdated and broken design language that no longer works properly on modern phones.



    We are witnessing the absolute destruction of everything we championed about Windows Phone's design. We didn't champion these things just because it looked better or we were used to it, we compared everything available and determined it's better to be able to swipe on any pixel on your screen and get to the next section than to have to reach to the top of your 5" phone to tap a nondescript button or open up a hamburger menu. We determined it's better to use words to identify sections of an app than random mystery buttons. Once Microsoft achieves their desperate goal of mobile conformity all you will have left is an iOS clone with fewer apps.

    Is the cost of winning acceptance giving up everything about you that makes you special, better? Microsoft seems to believe so. How can anyone support that. Windows 10 app design is a disgrace. Microsoft has given up on trying to do something better.
    Last edited by cool8man; 01-23-2015 at 08:05 PM.
    01-23-2015 07:40 PM
  16. iyae's Avatar
    Or you could just say, "Hey Cortana, send an email" and not worry about the buttons anymore. : )
    except that currently doesn't work on the PC technical preview :(
    01-23-2015 09:32 PM
  17. cool8man's Avatar

    The public is more familiar with bad design than good design. It is, in effect, conditioned to prefer bad design, because that is what it lives with. The new becomes threatening, the old reassuring.
    - designer Paul Rand

    Adam Lein at PocketNow has had Microsoft's number on this for a while now. He's been calling out Windows Phone on all the terrible conformist changes they were making to the OneDrive app and to other apps like SmartGlass which replace pivot navigation with generic hamburger button navigation. In his article "8 ways to tell if your mobile app sucks" he explains why many Metro design principles worked better than what became popular early on with iOS and Android apps.

    Basically he says button placement should always be at the bottom of the screen near your thumb, icons should be easily identifiable or have words underneath to help the user understand and should never use the same icon to do different things, introductory tutorials are a lazy crutch of bad design, landscape and portrait should always be supported. I would personally add that navigation of the app sections should be possible from any point or pixel on your app (ie. Metro pivoting, IE11 back/forward, photo viewing, etc.).



    Apple's old UI creates problems for modern phones. Losing 1/2 your screen is not the solution.

    I guarantee you that at Apple right now they realize that stupid "big screen" mode (where you lose half of your screen) is not a long term solution and the entire design language of iOS needs to be redesigned for modern 5" phone hardware. So in essence Microsoft is copying a design language who's expiration date is fast approaching. Apple will shift to an app design template that makes sense for a big screen phone just as Microsoft is adopting the old outdated template meant for 4" phones. Seeing Microsoft conform to their design is all the more incentive for Apple to switch gears now and make Microsoft look cluelessly behind the curve once again. It's a win-win situation for Apple, they get to fix their broken design language and make Microsoft look two steps behind.
    01-23-2015 11:52 PM
  18. hyperthermia's Avatar
    i dont like back buttons on the screen. the buttons on top are so hard to reach with a lumia 1520. i hope universal apps doesnt mean being one with android and ios so everybody looks the same or universal. noooooo where is metro? where are the hubs? why are we so app centric now? where is the people first os?
    01-24-2015 12:30 AM
  19. hyperthermia's Avatar
    i think mircosoft cant get rid of the back button on the screen because apps now are universal meaning they share codes with desktop and tablets which does not have a back/home /search bezel buttons.
    01-24-2015 12:34 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    i think mircosoft cant get rid of the back button on the screen because apps now are universal meaning they share codes with desktop and tablets which does not have a back/home /search bezel buttons.
    Even I can make a UI element disappear when a WP8.1 universal app runs on a phone rather than a tablet. This is so trivial, it barely counts as a problem.
    01-24-2015 01:00 AM
  21. anon(5969054)'s Avatar

    The public is more familiar with bad design than good design. It is, in effect, conditioned to prefer bad design, because that is what it lives with. The new becomes threatening, the old reassuring.
    - designer Paul Rand

    Adam Lein at PocketNow has had Microsoft's number on this for a while now. He's been calling out Windows Phone on all the terrible conformist changes they were making to the OneDrive app and to other apps like SmartGlass which replace pivot navigation with generic hamburger button navigation. In his article "8 ways to tell if your mobile app sucks" he explains why many Metro design principles worked better than what became popular early on with iOS and Android apps.

    Basically he says button placement should always be at the bottom of the screen near your thumb, icons should be easily identifiable or have words underneath to help the user understand and should never use the same icon to do different things, introductory tutorials are a lazy crutch of bad design, landscape and portrait should always be supported. I would personally add that navigation of the app sections should be possible from any point or pixel on your app (ie. Metro pivoting, IE11 back/forward, photo viewing, etc.).


    http://www.iphoneapptube.com/wp-cont...achability.png
    Apple's old UI creates problems for modern phones. Losing 1/2 your screen is not the solution.

    I guarantee you that at Apple right now they realize that stupid "big screen" mode (where you lose half of your screen) is not a long term solution and the entire design language of iOS needs to be redesigned for modern 5" phone hardware. So in essence Microsoft is copying a design language who's expiration date is fast approaching. Apple will shift to an app design template that makes sense for a big screen phone just as Microsoft is adopting the old outdated template meant for 4" phones. Seeing Microsoft conform to their design is all the more incentive for Apple to switch gears now and make Microsoft look cluelessly behind the curve once again. It's a win-win situation for Apple, they get to fix their broken design language and make Microsoft look two steps behind.
    This should be a front page article. This is exactly what I was thinking as well. Soon iOS and Android will realize everything needs to go to the bottom. Then they will laugh at Microsoft. This is going to happen. Hamburgers have an expiration date because they suck. Microsoft was onto something evolutionary. They were on the path of perfection. Now they are indeed going back to 2007.

    There is not even a reason everything needs to be on top on desktops. It doesn't matter at all where anything is on a desktop. The phone UI is the leading factor. On a desktop it really doesn't matter where you move your mouse or where you put your eyes at.

    The only thing that was confusing to people on w8 was that the menu's where all hidden under a rich mouse click. That should be visible because I can try to explain it 10 times to elderly people, they always forget that you get menu's with a right mouse click. And they don't know how to close an app. Even if they want the menu items on top it can be easy to automatically put that stuff at the bottom when a single handedly device is detected..
    a5cent, luisfarelo and Kevin Rush like this.
    01-24-2015 05:29 AM
  22. tiziano27's Avatar
    I guarantee you that at Apple right now they realize that stupid "big screen" mode (where you lose half of your screen) is not a long term solution and the entire design language of iOS needs to be redesigned for modern 5" phone hardware. So in essence Microsoft is copying a design language who's expiration date is fast approaching. Apple will shift to an app design template that makes sense for a big screen phone just as Microsoft is adopting the old outdated template meant for 4" phones. Seeing Microsoft conform to their design is all the more incentive for Apple to switch gears now and make Microsoft look cluelessly behind the curve once again. It's a win-win situation for Apple, they get to fix their broken design language and make Microsoft look two steps behind.

    I guarantee you that Apple and Google won't move the menus to the bottom, because smartphones work perfectly well as they are. The satisfaction polls show that people is extremely happy with their smartphones with menus at the top. People don't have any problem with the bigger iPhones, in fact the record of iPhone sold will be destroyed this quarter with big models, including a phablet with menus at the top. Companies won't change what is working fantastically well. Besides menus at the bottom has usability problems as well, and they're an aberration of ugliness like in WP.

    The obsession for one-handed-use is a particularity of a small group in this community. In the real world It's not an issue.
    01-24-2015 07:26 AM
  23. Slovenix's Avatar
    I guarantee you that Apple and Google won't move the menus to the bottom, because smartphones work perfectly well as they are. The satisfaction polls show that people is extremely happy with their smartphones with menus at the top. People don't have any problem with the bigger iPhones, in fact the record of iPhone sold will be destroyed this quarter with big models, including a phablet with menus at the top. Companies won't change what is working fantastically well. Besides menus at the bottom has usability problems as well, and they're an aberration of ugliness like in WP.

    The obsession for one-handed-use is a particularity of a small group in this community. In the real world It's not an issue.
    I agree. Buttons at the top may not be as fast accessible as on the bottom, but they may get annoying to look at. I like too see clear space on the bottom more than on the top. For instance: texting apps with chat windows + buttons on the bottom = creating useless space. Now add on screen buttons as well plus keyboard when typing .. See how that goes.
    Last edited by Slovenix; 01-24-2015 at 05:52 PM.
    tiziano27 and TheCudder like this.
    01-24-2015 07:46 AM
  24. anon(5969054)'s Avatar
    I guarantee you that Apple and Google won't move the menus to the bottom, because smartphones work perfectly well as they are. The satisfaction polls show that people is extremely happy with their smartphones with menus at the top. People don't have any problem with the bigger iPhones, in fact the record of iPhone sold will be destroyed this quarter with big models, including a phablet with menus at the top. Companies won't change what is working fantastically well. Besides menus at the bottom has usability problems as well, and they're an aberration of ugliness like in WP.

    The obsession for one-handed-use is a particularity of a small group in this community. In the real world It's not an issue.
    People are happy with their phone because they don't know better.
    nohra likes this.
    01-24-2015 05:50 PM
  25. luisfarelo's Avatar
    This new WP10 user interface is a disaster, just a cheap copy of Android circa Ice Cream Sandwich, just without the apps. If this indeed remains on final version I will be moving to Lollipop.
    01-25-2015 03:56 AM
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